Capitulation/Vassals and Conquest victories

[Volstag]

Hey all,

I'm playing a prince level game, pangea, standard, 7 AI. I was initially going to shoot for a conquest victory since my early war mongering was working out pretty well. I had completely knocked out 2 or 3 opponents and was working on my 4th when my economy really started nose diving. I was thinking about calling for peace to consolidate, when my opponent offered capitulation. Without really thinking about it, I accepted.

I learned later, somewhat to my dismay, that there isn't really a way to reinstate hostilities against this nation. So, my question in a nutshell: if you accept the capitulation of an AI civ, is it impossible to achieve a conquest victory? Is there some way, any way, to break the vassalage? Or do vassal civs count as "defeated" opponents?

One more question: how do vassal civs work vis-a-vis diplomatic victories? Do they vote for their vassal?

Thanks in advance.

-V

 

[Volstag]

Just won. Ergo, capitulated enemies count as "defeated" enemies.

 

[GoldenWheels]

It woudl still be useful to me if someone could still answer your original Q though...I was warring with Mehmed as a favor to Freddy, and he offered capitualtion. I took it, only after realizing I wanted to take one vulnerable city ( i was really just pillaging and looting to be a bud), the Buddhist holy city, the only thing standing in my way of Confucian domination. (it's one tranquil continent let me tell ya).

Anyway, I demand that he converts, and he denies me! I can't declare war, and the option to demand his conversion doesn't have an "or else" clause.

I cna buy him off to convert, but then he reconverts 5 turns later. ARGH. Really throwing a kink in my crusade.

 

[zyphyr]

There are 2 types of Capitulation :
1)Conquest derived (you beat the snot out of them and they give up to you).
2)Voluntary (usually it means someone else is beating the snot out of them and they give up to you).

In the 1st case, there are are only 3 triggers which allow for the breaking of theit Vassalage. Nothing else will work. If they lose to much of what they had when they gave up to you later on, or get to big relative to you they can chose to break it (but you can't). You, on the other hand, can never say "I am sick of you, you aren't my vassal anymore".

In the 2nd case, it can be broken voluntarily (iirc, either side can do it but I have been on the recieving end of this type yet so I am not 100% sure).

 

[Malgg]

So basically if you want a conquest victory, don't accept any capitulations? Just pilliage your way across their territory?

 

[Martinus]

So basically if you want a conquest victory, don't accept any capitulations? Just pilliage your way across their territory?

Uhm, have you actually read any of the responses?

Capitulation = destroyed civ, for the purpose of conquest victory. If all civilizations in game capitulate to you, you win the conquest victory.

 

[Martinus]

It woudl still be useful to me if someone could still answer your original Q though...I was warring with Mehmed as a favor to Freddy, and he offered capitualtion. I took it, only after realizing I wanted to take one vulnerable city ( i was really just pillaging and looting to be a bud), the Buddhist holy city, the only thing standing in my way of Confucian domination. (it's one tranquil continent let me tell ya).

Anyway, I demand that he converts, and he denies me! I can't declare war, and the option to demand his conversion doesn't have an "or else" clause.

I cna buy him off to convert, but then he reconverts 5 turns later. ARGH. Really throwing a kink in my crusade.

Capitulated vassals break away (which allows you to declare war on them) if:
(a) their population is equal to at least 50% of the master's population, OR
(b) their landmass is equal to at least 50% of the master's landmass, OR
(c) their landmass halves compared to their landmass at the time they capitulated.

So you can cause your vassal to break away either by allow him to expand/grow, killing off your populace or reducing your landmass, or allowing his territory to shrink by a third party conquest or cultural expansion.

 

[Volstag]

So basically if you want a conquest victory, don't accept any capitulations? Just pilliage your way across their territory?

On the contrary, I would say you should accept capitulations. It often saves you the hassle of destroying their last 1 to 4 cities.

Still though, does anyone know how vassals behave with regards to a diplomatic victory?

-V

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

Their culture can also still deny you access to land, on the whole I'm finding that Vassels are more trouble than they are worth. But if you don't get them and you look like destroying them they'll end up becoming you're rivals vassel.

 

[GoldenWheels]

Capitulated vassals break away (which allows you to declare war on them) if:
(a) their population is equal to at least 50% of the master's population, OR
(b) their landmass is equal to at least 50% of the master's landmass, OR
(c) their landmass halves compared to their landmass at the time they capitulated.

So you can cause your vassal to break away either by allow him to expand/grow, killing off your populace or reducing your landmass, or allowing his territory to shrink by a third party conquest or cultural expansion.

Thanks man. But even if i manage the game to ALLOW him to break vassalage through the specs....Im the master in the Master/Vassal relationship, I find it really stupid that i should have to do that. There's also no good way to accomplish most of the qualifiers once the continet (was a pangea) is fully populated. Dumb feature IMO. I feel like I have to manipulate the game to do something that should be an option on the dialogue screen.

Even worse is the fact that to break the vassalage my only option is to allow/encourage them to become MORE powerful/larger or to HURT my own empire, whereas if they want to break the vassalage, all they have to do is deny a demand/cancel a demand, as long as they're willing to deal with the war.

The vassal has more options then me? Huh?

 

[EdwardTking]

On the contrary, I would say you should accept capitulations. It often saves you the hassle of destroying their last 1 to 4 cities.

Still though, does anyone know how vassals behave with regards to a diplomatic victory?

-V

In last two games I got a diplo win, they voted for their master, me.

 

[Malgg]

On the contrary, I would say you should accept capitulations. It often saves you the hassle of destroying their last 1 to 4 cities.

I guess my problem in my last game was that I was accepting capitulation too early.

Peter the Great had a large territory and capitulated almost immediately. I probably should had cut his territory way down through pillage before taking him on as a vassel.

I really wish Civ IV had the 'custom rules' option of Civ III without have to go to a custom scenario.