Carthage

I speak pretty solid Lao. Not fluent by any means, but I can get by.

I always ask the name of any place I visit. Most take their name from a local geographic feature, not unlike towns and villages the world over.
 
Cool. But those aren't really village names. They're useful shorthand for a location or area and might include multiple otherwise discrete villages.
 
A very high percentage of city names in the US are just copied from names in Europe.

At least, in cases like New York or New Madrid, they had the decency to add the adjective "new".

That can't be said for cities like Plymouth.
 
At least, in cases like New York or New Madrid, they had the decency to add the adjective "new".

That can't be said for cities like Plymouth.

There are some of them. But there's plenty that don't have that as well. And every state does it, so there's a lot of repetition there as well. For example, there are 21 towns or cities called Athens in the US. 15 Rome. 9 London. 18 Paris.
 
Cool. But those aren't really village names. They're useful shorthand for a location or area and might include multiple otherwise discrete villages.

Uh, no. I can personally attest to multiple villages on a small stretch of the Mekong each with their own name. They aren't named Salisbury Plain or Rocky Mountains or undefined stretch of the Mekong. Each village is named after one specific, local geographic feature that only they claim as their own. Further, they are registered as such by the government authorities.

It's no different than in English and other languages. Plymouth, England draws its name from being located at the mouth of the Plym River no differently than Pak Beng, Laos gets its name from being at the mouth (pak) of the Beng. Similarly, Busan is "cauldron mountain," Hiroshima is "broad island," Steinfurt is "stone ford", Stockholm is "log island," and so on. Not to mention all the US and Canadian towns with Native American names that refer to local geographic features.

Or are these just useful shorthand as well?
 
On subject, I also recommend Carthage Must be Destroyed like the earlier posters--I consider it the best one-stop shop for broad knowledge on Carthaginian civilization.
 
On subject, I also recommend Carthage Must be Destroyed like the earlier posters--I consider it the best one-stop shop for broad knowledge on Carthaginian civilization.

I've heard on Reddit AskHistorians from Phoenician/Carthaginian historians/(archeologists?) that the book actually has several inconsistencies and incorrect facts that they take massive issues with.

I don't mind though, I am not a historian and it sounded more like those historians being anal about details from what is nominally a pop. history book. For someone like me who went into the book knowing just the general background of the Carthaginians, I learned a hell of a lot not only of the Phoenician/Carthaginians but of the entire ancient Mediterranean.

For a general overview of Carthage and Phoenicia it is great. Miles has a way of making his writing engaging and almost story-like as well making it IMO one of the best pop. history books I've read.
 
MilesGregarius said:
Or are these just useful shorthand as well?

Cool, I can tell you that it's very common in Indonesia for there being no name. I can also attest to much the same thing in Vietnam and Burma.
 
From course material I took on the subject of Carthage:

Cartage is the only Semitic city that has a foundation legend comparable to the foundation legends of Greek and Roman towns. For nearly three centuries after Carthage was founded, its ties with Tyre remained very close, both culturally and politically. Tyre controlled Carthage’s government, sending out governors to run the city. Carthage annually sent a delegation back to Tyre to sacrifice at the temple of Melqart there. This sacrifice included the delivery of a tribute payment.

Carthage’s move to create an empire for itself probably grew out of a combination of its own commercial interests, together with events back home in Phoenicia. Carthage was only able to build its empire once it became independent of Tyre. The decisive moment in the process seems to have come when Tyre fell to the Babylonian empire in 573, after a 13-year siege.
 
taillesskangaru said:
Thais like giving names to things. Could be true for the other side of the Mekong too.
Those are the two countries I have the least exposure too, at least for this.
 
I've heard on Reddit AskHistorians from Phoenician/Carthaginian historians/(archeologists?) that the book actually has several inconsistencies and incorrect facts that they take massive issues with.

I don't mind though, I am not a historian and it sounded more like those historians being anal about details from what is nominally a pop. history book. For someone like me who went into the book knowing just the general background of the Carthaginians, I learned a hell of a lot not only of the Phoenician/Carthaginians but of the entire ancient Mediterranean.

For a general overview of Carthage and Phoenicia it is great. Miles has a way of making his writing engaging and almost story-like as well making it IMO one of the best pop. history books I've read.

Yeah, I've heard some listed complaints. As I understand it, the biggest complaints are related to early history and suggested a lack of familiarity with the Greek sources (I don't know if that's true, mind you, just what the complaints I've seen said). But, even if true, it's still better than most books out there. It presents Carthage as more than a stereotype, which alone makes it worth it. I followed that book with Ghosts of Cannae and almost had to stop reading when Robert O'Connell started talking about Carthage in the broadest stereotypes possible.

Also, for a pop history book, Miles's work clearly is striving to do a little more and incorporate a theme, using cultural history (particularly with Melqart-Herakles) to establish a greater narrative about Carthaginian mindset, actions, and culture. At first, I wasn't sure it was worth it, but the payoff in an attempt to recreate Hannibal's propaganda for his crossing of the Alps, was quite good.
 
I am definitely glad that the book emphasized that particular portion, regarding Hannibal's propaganda and how shaky and disunited the Roman republic was at the time.

The narrative I've heard throughout the years and in my history lectures has always been that the Second Punic War was the war where Roman cultural and 'nationalistic' identity came to be united and strengthened over a foreign threat. It is refreshing to read a countering viewpoint that isn't following the narrative written by contemporary Roman historians/scholars.

Likewise in regards to Sicily.
 
Uh, no. I can personally attest to multiple villages on a small stretch of the Mekong each with their own name. They aren't named Salisbury Plain or Rocky Mountains or undefined stretch of the Mekong. Each village is named after one specific, local geographic feature that only they claim as their own. Further, they are registered as such by the government authorities.
I think this is actually pretty important. You're treating it as a consequence, that the villages have names, and the government just goes around finding out what they are and writing them down. But it's just as plausible that the government has ascribed names to originally-nameless villages, and the inhabitants have started going along with it because it's convenient. Sometimes governments will even invent whole villages, discovering discrete, unified settlements that the inhabitants hadn't even realised existed, and over time their bureaucratic fictions will turn out to be real. It's just the sort of thing that governments do.
 
Yeah, I've heard some listed complaints. As I understand it, the biggest complaints are related to early history and suggested a lack of familiarity with the Greek sources (I don't know if that's true, mind you, just what the complaints I've seen said). But, even if true, it's still better than most books out there. It presents Carthage as more than a stereotype, which alone makes it worth it. I followed that book with Ghosts of Cannae and almost had to stop reading when Robert O'Connell started talking about Carthage in the broadest stereotypes possible.

Also, for a pop history book, Miles's work clearly is striving to do a little more and incorporate a theme, using cultural history (particularly with Melqart-Herakles) to establish a greater narrative about Carthaginian mindset, actions, and culture. At first, I wasn't sure it was worth it, but the payoff in an attempt to recreate Hannibal's propaganda for his crossing of the Alps, was quite good.

I tackled those books in the opposite order, so those parts of O'Connell's book were not as off-putting as they would likely be after reading CMbD.

Agreed on the cultural history, too--I learned the most from those sections and felt they contributed the most to the work.
 
I think this is actually pretty important. You're treating it as a consequence, that the villages have names, and the government just goes around finding out what they are and writing them down. But it's just as plausible that the government has ascribed names to originally-nameless villages, and the inhabitants have started going along with it because it's convenient. Sometimes governments will even invent whole villages, discovering discrete, unified settlements that the inhabitants hadn't even realised existed, and over time their bureaucratic fictions will turn out to be real. It's just the sort of thing that governments do.

I can't speak to areas outside of Lao and Thailand, but I have been a regular visitor to both countries for many years (Thailand since '93; Lao since '99.) I have never yet visited a village where I didn't get an immediate response to the question, "What's this village called?" Nor is there ever any hesitation on the part of the respondent to indicate that village names are an alien concept. Not only do residents have names for their own villages, but other locals know them by name: when passing villages I don't have time to visit, asking other Lao/Thai the name of said village always gets an immediate and consistent answer. There are also consistent linguistic patterns for naming settlements in Lao/Thai (politically they're separate languages, but are far more similar and mutually intelligible than Geordie is to Texian,) villages being Ban Such-and-Such, and towns, Muang So-and-So.

Further, in the case of Lao, I'm not even sure there were government names for many villages before this century. Outside of the larger urban centers (if you can call anywhere in Lao "urban,") there was precious little government documentation until recently. No one I know born before 1999 even has a birth date, merely a birth year, listed on their IDs. Up until recently, the Lao bureaucracy just didn't have the funds to reach very far into the hinterlands.

Now there's no doubt that government bureaucracies do indeed do a lot of arbitrary BS, but I have seen no evidence that that is the case in my neck of the Mekong watershed outside of two instances where this does occur in a limited sense:

  • After the former Kuomintang army base/opium capital of the universe, Mae Salong, agreed to be integrated into Thailand, within whose borders it has always been located, the Thai authorities renamed it Santikhiri in an attempt to 'Thai-ify' it and disassociate it from its disreputable past. I haven't been there in years, but to my knowledge, the name never stuck anywhere but in government paperwork. I believe similar efforts have been made to relabel other villages with 'shady' or 'impolitic' pasts, but I'm not directly familiar with any.
  • In the case of some hilltribes, who refer to their settlements by the name of its headman, the Thai (I can't speak to the situation in Lao) come in, ask the name of the village, record the current headman's name as the village's, and never update their records. The village is thus permanently (mis)labeled, though not entirely by government fiat.

On a national scale, Lao follows your example more closely than any Lao village that I know of. The French labeled their Lao possessions as "the Kingdom of the Laos (plural.)" Not only is this grammatically incorrect, there being no plural of any noun in Lao, but it is phonetically impossible in the Lao language (final 's' becoming a 't',) and nearly impossible for a native Lao speaker to pronounce. Don't even get me started on "Laotian."

Government fiat also played a role in naming Bangkok. While officially listed as "Bangkok" in all non-Thai documentation, the Thai name for the city is a godawfully long word (putting German or Welsh to shame) that is almost always shortened to Krungthep, the City of Angels. The Thai government simply adopted the name foreigners had been using for the city for their foreign interactions. Krungthep itself, though, is not an organic name, but a specifically chosen name for the capital of a new dynasty.
 
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