Catapults

[Victoria]

Russia is very difficult to contend with because they tech up much faster, watch out for the early arrival of Cossacks. Scythia is a powder keg waiting to explode on you because they use all of their Kurgan faith buying military units.

Sounds like hell and nirvana all rolled into one! For the first time I'm gonna choose my opposition, including those 2 of course.

 

[PYITE]

Nice @PYITE did not think of that way.. I think I know the XML file I think, would rather change it there

Very welcome, happy to help. Let me know how it goes for you. I found that I had to make some pretty significant adjustments to my game strategies in response.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

On Diety, those options will take to long in most cases. It is a completely different game when all of the AIs can't waste any production on religion. Early rushes are mostly ineffective because the AI is producing units quicker then you can kill them.

It seems that rushes being more difficult in this case. But mention that both Archer Rush and Knight Rushes can be done without GGs. GG is a must for Horseman games, but only a light bonus to Knight Games. If you miss the GG you can just build more knights instead.

 

[PYITE]

It seems that rushes being more difficult in this case. But mention that both Archer Rush and Knight Rushes can be done without GGs. GG is a must for Horseman games, but only a light bonus to Knight Games. If you miss the GG you can just build more knights instead.

I agree there are other options when you can't get a GG, but my point is that you can't just automatically get one without really even trying when there is no religion.
I find that when you can easily get the 1st and one of the medieval GGs the double stack bonus you get for your knights and crossbows is very powerful.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I agree there are other options when you can't get a GG, but my point is that you can't just automatically get one without really even trying when there is no religion.
I find that when you can easily get the 1st and one of the medieval GGs the double stack bonus you get for your knights and crossbows is very powerful.

Often the 2nd GG becomes a Renaissance one.
I think the stack of GGs may be fixed in future versions. I don't think it's the designers' intention to stack lots of GGs. They become exponentially more powerful.

 

[JustifierNA]

These 2 go well together. Putting so much emphasis on encampments early completely conditions your early game, as I said before. You pretty much have to go for domination after that, because you won't have enough room for the districts that you need for other victory types soon enough. And don't expect the AI to build nearly enough theatre squares or commercial hubs, they don't prioritize them at all.

haha wow what a reply you must really hate my opinions . Cultural is hard for me to win because 9/10 times it's simply faster to win via either dom/science than to watch little unknown numbers mysteriously add up and to try to compete with Deity AI for wonders/great people for a cultural victory is ludicrous (to me).

As far as rams/towers go I've already stated something like 2-3 times that I DO use them however that doesn't mean I limit my arsenal or relegate myself to a cookie cutter strategy just because it's something that works in 7/10 situations. Will I use it in those situations? SURE. Will I PREPARE for those 3/10 situations just in case? Absolutely.

 

[zxcvbob]

I didn't know GG's stacked. But I rarely get them anyway (King and Emperor level.) I always build at least one encampment in case I just have one copy of a strategic resource, and so I can built corps and armies in the late game, but it's not a high priority.

Started a game earlier today as Pericles (sp?). Hoplites do a fantastic job taking ancient and early-medieval cities, even without a general. They need a ram once the cities get walls. Not sure how long they remain relevant so I'm building chariots now while beelining stirrups to upgrade them to knights. I'm probably not going for a domination victory, but I'd like to conquer my continent before exploring the oceans.

 

[JustifierNA]

I didn't know GG's stacked. But I rarely get them anyway (King and Emperor level.) I always build at least one encampment in case I just have one copy of a strategic resource, and so I can built corps and armies in the late game, but it's not a high priority.

Started a game earlier today as Pericles (sp?). Hoplites do a fantastic job taking ancient and early-medieval cities, even without a general. They need a ram once the cities get walls. Not sure how long they remain relevant so I'm building chariots now while beelining stirrups to upgrade them to knights. I'm probably not going for a domination victory, but I'd like to conquer my continent before exploring the oceans.

Spearmen wouldn't be affected by a Great General (Hoplites included) since they're ancient era units, not Classical +, but yeah Hoplites op

 

[Victoria]

to watch little unknown numbers mysteriously add up

WTF, they are not unknown, my guide explains in great deatail precisely how a CV works. I would expect you could sum up that info in under a page in your guide.

 

[JustifierNA]

WTF, they are not unknown, my guide explains in great deatail precisely how a CV works. I would expect you could sum up that info in under a page in your guide.

I haven't read it yet so for me it's still an unknown , Also I was waiting for conformation from you that I was allowed to use it before I incorporated it into my own guide (consolidated ofc)

 

[Victoria]

I haven't read it yet so for me it's still an unknown , Also I was waiting for conformation from you that I was allowed to use it before I incorporated it into my own guide (consolidated ofc)

It's in the public arena... it is quite thorough but sure, feel free to use, the mechanics sections explain how it all works and AI am happy to clarify and questions.
I have read a lot of pretty useless culture guides, I can honestly say this is not one of them.

 

[DrCron]

that doesn't mean I limit my arsenal or relegate myself to a cookie cutter strategy just because it's something that works in 7/10 situations

Now I'm really curious about those alleged 30% of maps in which you can't effectively use support units but you can move catapults instead. I have personally never experienced them myself. Honestly, feel free to send me a seed of a map in which you can't conquer with rams/towers but you can with catapults. Until then, I'll maintain support units are more efficient than cats 100% of the times, for the reasons stated before.

I didn't know GG's stacked. But I rarely get them anyway (King and Emperor level.) I always build at least one encampment in case I just have one copy of a strategic resource, and so I can built corps and armies in the late game, but it's not a high priority.

That's perfectly fine, the AI sucks so bad at moving units that you can win domination without ever building an encampment, even on Pangea (example: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_rvgIlHFK-23CGJxzYWEliwZzvEHfcHS). It's easier if you have some iron, though, because the knight's movement helps a lot. Even having 1 iron is good enough, since you probably won't build the knights, just upgrade them from chariots instead (way faster). Then eventually you'll conquer a few encampments (the AI is bound to build some) in case you ever need them.

 

[JustifierNA]

Now I'm really curious about those alleged 30% of maps in which you can't effectively use support units but you can move catapults instead. I have personally never experienced them myself. Honestly, feel free to send me a seed of a map in which you can't conquer with rams/towers but you can with catapults. Until then, I'll maintain support units are more efficient than cats 100% of the times, for the reasons stated before.



That's perfectly fine, the AI sucks so bad at moving units that you can win domination without ever building an encampment, even on Pangea (example: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_rvgIlHFK-23CGJxzYWEliwZzvEHfcHS). It's easier if you have some iron, though, because the knight's movement helps a lot. Even having 1 iron is good enough, since you probably won't build the knights, just upgrade them from chariots instead (way faster). Then eventually you'll conquer a few encampments (the AI is bound to build some) in case you ever need them.

It has nothing to do with maps. It has to do with the city defense of the cities you're attacking. If you're fighting a city that has Cavalry defense and you've got Knights then catapults/bombards are going to be MUCH better than support siege. And when you play on Deity chances are you're going to be fighting an era or two's units ahead of yourself.


At this point I can choose to either back off, spam units and suicide them against more modern units or just make a meatwall and let units which were designed to fight in this situation do the hard work while I build infrastructure.

 

[Victoria]

If you're fighting a city that has Cavalry defense and you've got Knights then catapults/bombards are going to be MUCH better than support siege.

As I understand it Bombards are great at a 55 strength against musket walls but catapults against cavalry walls are 35 to 40... I feel a test coming on... and one relevant to the thread!

 

[DrCron]

It has to do with the city defense of the cities you're attacking

In my experience with domination games, after the initial conquest of my closest neighbor (with chariots+ram) it's not so hard to keep up in tech. It's not so rare to conquer 3/4 cities + a settler, and usually 1 of those cities will have a campus.

If you're fighting a city that has Cavalry defense and you've got Knights

Never encountered this situation at a moment in which I didn't have, at least, corps. In one of my non-domination games I was attacking an AI with knights (no corps yet) and they got AT crews, so I had to finish the war. But on a domination game I would have probably conquered these cities way earlier (on this map I wasn't even planning to attack this AI until they attacked our other neighbor and started to break the balance of the continent, which I was happy with) because I would be the one planning the timing of every attack. My tech path would have also been different.

I feel a test coming on... and one relevant to the thread!

Cool, it's always interesting to see the numbers.

*As a side note, I'd point out that I'm not against siege units late-game. I really like the artillery+balloon combo to finish domination games.

 

[Victoria]

So as expected... there is no difference in damage per se, what @JustifierNA is saying is if the city strength is significantly more than your troops they will get hurt a lot attacking it. Its really about Hit Points of the wall as well. A renaissance wall at 150 HP is significantly harder to take than an ancient wall with 50 HP.

• If the wall can be taken down in one turn by 3 or 4 troops you do not need a catapult
• If the city strength is greater than 30 difference you are doomed if you wanted to attack it with troops regardless (NOTE: The cirty strength shown in the shield is likely less than the real..so always check by hovering over the city

I am not sure a catapult is going to help that much due to the early nature of it and what it faces. But Bombards sure... However this is a discussion about Catapults and the general concensus on this forum has always been Bombards are goodish to use and catapults are quite weak both defensively and attacking to make much difference against higher walls and against lower walls a ram does just fine.

3 troops with a 22 point difference and a ram... looks like you need 4 (this test on prince and the city is not on a hill... so 42 is the real number of the city)
Also if this was a 100 point wall rather than a 50 the rules change... and who said Renaissence walls are rubbish? ... just short lived for 3 gold maintenance for the rest of the game.

Bottom line... ancient walls = RAM, easy peasy... beyond that you have to think for a change

If people are unaware, the type of troop makes no difference... its the difference in strength as per https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hans-lemurson-figures-out-the-combat-formula.606147/

 

[JustifierNA]

But Bombards sure... However this is a discussion about Catapults and the general concensus on this forum has always been Bombards are goodish to use and catapults are quite weak both defensively and attacking to make much difference against higher walls and against lower walls a ram does just fine.
/

I think Catapults are quite strong actually: If you get the first upgrade on the right branch you're getting +7 defending, if you get the two on the left after that you're getting +24 vs land units (I believe 55 combat strength when defending vs land units(with a GG ofc))... that's pretty crazy strong and super hard to take out, 2-3 of those to use as the base for a corps/army are scary powerful (and you don't need the 2rd upgrade for shooting after moving as long as you have a GG) Also the fact that they upgrade into bombards is something that should be considered when you're building them since you're not just investing into a catapult you're investing into bombards, artillery and rocket artillery (experienced ones at that)

 

[Victoria]

If you get the first upgrade on the right branch you're getting +7 defending, if you get the two on the left after that you're getting +24 vs land units

....but they are vulnerable to wall fire which targets them and 3 upgrades as cats is tricky. I use cats because I want to upgrade them so they get to L4 faster as artillery. I'll take down a wall early then get my cat in there for some garrison XP.
The light cav promotion is also mighty fine
Bottom line is that, you should not need field artillery replacement, you would like a better bombard... but it's not necessary.
Do you play them much? 3 seems an excessive waste of production and they do take up a tile, they are quite lumpy.

Infantry corps with RAM... or in my case redcoat corp with RAM suits me just fine, army great. I never seem to get a tower up there but I guess I could just buy one.

 

[DrCron]

you're investing into bombards, artillery and rocket artillery

Apart from what Victoria pointed out, SP domination games tend to be won before rocket artillery is available. And by the time artillery comes along you should have plenty of both production and gold, so you can get them quickly (plus the balloon, ofc).

 

[Photi]

Bottom line... ancient walls = RAM, easy peasy... beyond that you have to think for a change

if you have still have your little scenario in a save file, are cats improved with towers? iirc, ranged units were improved with towers, wondering if siege units too.

/off-topic @DrCron i caught the first few episodes of your Persia game last night, talk about a nail-biter. the T65 knight and getting sniped with crossbows might've had me rage quitting. well done.

also, i know it's been a couple months and maybe you already know this, but when unknown city-states are defeated and you are given the notification, that counts as meeting them and explains the political philosophy boosts