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Catapults

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Arent11, Jun 17, 2017.

?

Are Catapults good?

Poll closed Jul 23, 2017.
  1. They are great!

    12 vote(s)
    52.2%
  2. Uh, catapults? Never build them...

    11 vote(s)
    47.8%
  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    I made a correction on the wiki.
    1:Ranged units(Including Siege Weapons) are also bonused by siege towers.
    2: Using both is the best method. They do not weaken each other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    OK so A better test... I got the fortification to 200 and used knights. This makes it much clearer
    This seems to validate that using both means you direct your damage to both...you have just done double damage, nasty? see next post as to why it is not

    Before test
    upload_2017-6-20_13-36-41.png

    After 1 attack
    upload_2017-6-20_13-37-4.png
    After 2 attacks
    upload_2017-6-20_13-37-29.png

    Ram after 2 attacks
    upload_2017-6-20_13-38-0.png
    Tower after 2 attacks
    upload_2017-6-20_13-38-34.png

    There is nothing quite like a test with pictures to prove a point.. (and with walls scaled to garrison for clarity)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The only way to stop people changing it back is to say this has been correctly tested
    I'm just glad this has been clarified as it has been going on for quite a few threads and we all got th wrong idea without solid proof.

    Another thing to note of importance in considerations is damaging the walls does not reduce the strength of the city but damaging the district does. This gives the seige tower the edge over the ram if fortificatons and district are the same health
    The RAM will get an early advantage when fortifications are not so 'healthy'

    So the right strategy as I see it is


    Build a ram if you are going to attack early or you want experience for other units like catapults once the wall is down.

    If the walls have less health you are better off using a RAM, if they are the same health you are better off using a tower

    There is little benefit in using both despite double damage apart from it may take the city earlier but not often

    upload_2017-6-20_13-49-49.png
    upload_2017-6-20_13-49-15.png

    ... of course this is nothing to do with catapults
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  4. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    Can you explain what you mean in your last post? (not the wiki part, I got that) Does damaging the city/district reduce the damage it does to you when it fights back?
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    On the ranged units here is a result of 6 xbow firing with and without 2 seige units
    upload_2017-6-20_14-26-59.png
    upload_2017-6-20_14-27-19.png

    So in the below picture my knight has a strength of 48 and the city has a strength of 30 .. the larger the difference between these numbers, the larger the damage I do to the district (I can point you to the damage thread if you want)
    So in this case my knights are +18 versus the district for the next attack
    If that 30% damage had been done to the wall that -3 modifier would not be there and my knights are only +15 for the next attack
    Once the district (garrison) is reduced in health it does not defend as well....If the wal is reduced in health it still fight with the full stregth of the garrison.
    And yes it also reduces the damage you get... you have killed some of the garrison so there are not so many to fight you
    upload_2017-6-20_14-28-13.png

    And while we are giving some value
    1. Be very aware that the defence number you see above the city name is not correct as it does not take into account terrain or difficulty level
    2. When attacking a city state they gain no difficulty bonus which may be one reason they seem easier to defeat on deity ... they may have forgotten this
    upload_2017-6-20_14-38-53.png
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2017
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  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You may want to change this again, its only my view but this post
    Catapults
     
  7. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Wow, first of all, someone should pay Victoria for doing that work :)

    Second, the pictures & messages should maybe be achieved. This is surely a question that many people ask themselves.

    Third thanks at DrCron to point this out. I never looked into that myself & took the wikia article for granted.
     
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  8. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I understand the difference in strength thing, where even one point is important. I just thought it was the city walls that were defending, because when they are reduced to zero the city stops fighting back.

    I may have to give siege towers another chance. I can just imagine what they would have done with my helicopter armies (Scythia, 2 for the price of one) in the last game.
     
  9. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Do all crossbows benefit or only crossbows directly adjacent to the walls?
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Np, I am a fanatic, enough said

    Dr cron is very useful, although technically incorrect, so was the wiki

    When your knight attacks the city it also takes dame from the city as well as the walls shooting

    I will check later, pitching up daughter atm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2017
  11. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    But if you destroy the walls in 1 turn (which should be the case pretty much every time) you won't get bombarded. On any war you will want to take more than just 1 city, so avoiding getting units killed in the front is important. If you get a bombardment after the 1st round of attacks, and the AI still has a unit to get a 2nd hit, on deity the chances of it killing your unit are high. Without city bombardment you'll pretty much never lose units. That's why bringing the ram along even after you get the siege tower is so strong (and will make your offensive wars faster).

    I think it was pretty useful, testing the numbers of the effect of siege units is IMO relevant to why one would not want to waste production building catapults.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So just use a ram
     
  13. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    In most cases only a tower is needed since you can eliminate all of the city's HP and capture it in 1T.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You can get rams before towers and quite often they have weak walls and quite a strong garrison as they are normally ahead of you in science on deity.

    Also not everyone save restores as they play and make mistakes or just take a non military path.
     
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  15. WildeComputers

    WildeComputers Warlord Supporter

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    Great work! Quick (stupid) question...when testing, did you form an escort with the ram/tower or just leave them in the hex?

    Just running an idea in my head where you move in the ram/tower prior to melee units arriving so you can secure the hex but also provide a way to move in & out units between healthy & damaged ones.
     
  16. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    If you do that, they will kill the unprotected ram or tower. BTDT when I first got the game and had no idea how they work. Support units have 0 combat strength (unless they've changed it in the past 6 months)
     
  17. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    If you manage well, normally you'll be far ahead of Ais. That is a basic condition since in C6 AIs don't receive as much bonus as they did in C4 or C5. I think the Deity level Ai shall be enhanced to make a real Deity one, not the current situation that you're like the real Deity while Deity Ais are actually swarms.

    Hint: Try to manage your cities, population, etc. wisely to get a classical GG and 10 Knights at Turn 75 in your next random map, and see what happens. That army works like deity even until Turn 100!

    I never form escorts in PVE games. They have different move speeds and different way of movings( e.g., a knight may plunder everywhere,while a ram may go back and forth to provide benefit to attack both the city and the encampment in the same turn), it's crazy to escort them and waste both unit's time. Just a little care that you end your turn protected is OK.

    In MP games, you must form escorts unless you want to face a war with no chance to win. Since you must move them simultaneously or your opponent will sacrifice a unit to kill your ram, make you unable to reach their walls.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2017
  18. WildeComputers

    WildeComputers Warlord Supporter

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    Ok, so ram & towers can now be attacked? They were not initially but I've never tried them post (any) patch. Last time I used them that could wander aimlessly with no risk of capture/defeat.
     
  19. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    The rule is, whenever an enemy unit stands on them, they are killed instantly.
     
  20. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    Escort them into position, then unhitch them and tell them to sleep. Rotate your knights (or whatever) in and out of the tile if they need to retreat and heal, but make sure something covers the tower or ram (or balloon) at the end of your turn.
     
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