@Catholics - Leaving/left the Church?

[Lord Gay]

I'm guessing people aren't arguing the Czech Republic is a Christian nation.

Maybe I'm just more critical of the issue than most due to my bias.

 

[coffee junkie]

Peter (head of the apostles) denied. Thomas doubted. Judas betrayed. Who ever said the Church was supposed to be perfect, or that being a religious in the church means you're suddenly without fault?

I agree.

1) There is a huge cultural difference on religious matter between South America, North America, and Europe, so a huge difference of point of views on how to live his/her life with religious matter.

In America, God is everywhere in the public life, even in politic. In Europe, there is no God, and no religion at all in public life : it MUST BE a private matter ( in thoery ) both in protestant majority and catholic majority countries. Problems are upcoming now with a larger European Community with deeper christian countries, Orthodox influence in such countries and on another hand, Islamic immigration for many reasons but I won't enter this subject. And of course, we must remember Old Yougoslavia crunch in the 90's and how religions had been used as pretext to ethnic genocides ...

Something is sure, there is no catholics-non-christians. It can't be. Of course, anybody can create a group and called themselves as they want, but "Catholic-non-Christian" is a non sense. It means nothing at all !

In Europe, you born catholic because of your family. As you born protestant because of your family, as you born muslim, jew or any other religion because of your family. And most of time, you stay with your born-religion because your family religion. Very few people cross the borderline to study and/or live another religion.

Catholic in Western Europe doesn't mean anymore you're agree with Church. Many many born catholics are in fact real agnostics or became atheists. And there is no problem at all with this.

Religion is much much more a problem in North America than in Europe ...

So why remaining catholic when living his/her life as an agnostic ? Maybe because the message is much more important that the messenger. The message must reminds to every catholic than they are first Christian before being Catholic.

The messenger is "faillible" !

The Church is Dogma based. But for everything which is not Dogma, it is not impossible to see another schism's arrival. For many reasons. It will be a pity if it comes only for these pedophily affairs. This way is the worse scenario for any Church transformation. But now, a bit late to regret it or not.

2) These pedophily affairs are serious because they are pedophily affairs, not because they come from The Church.

You can't say : I leave the Church because of these affairs. If you leave the Church, leave it for good reasons ( your faith or non-faith, your believes, etc ... )

Pedophily is a real serious problem. Not a reason to believe or not believe in God or deny any branch of any religion !

Few years ago, police arrested a big pedophily network in Switzerland. 1300 people involved. Most of them were teachers, school directors, doctors, psychanalists, etc ... most of them were in touch with children in their work.

Statistics show that there are more pedophily affairs in protestant majority countries than in catholic majority countries. But pedophily is important too in Asia, and in fact everywhere in the world. Let's face it. Humanity is sick.

Are you going to say or open a thread in a forum : I'm not anymore protestant or I'll not send anymore my children to school ?

Pedophily must be stopped everywhere. So The Church when trying to hide these affairs is guilty, not because it's The Catholic Church but because pedophily is a crime.

3) Sorry for religious gay people around but there is another fact : none of monotheist religions on earth accept gay people as normal people. None. If tolerance there is, it is only due to a kind of proselythism to keep them around or a wish to "cure" them. The 3 Books of Monotheism ( Torah, Ancient and New Testament, Coran ) called them abomination.

I don't see any problem to believe in something/someone. But belonging to a religion is more a problem than anything else.

After all, Marx was right : religion is the opium of the people ...

 

[Winner]

I'm guessing people aren't arguing the Czech Republic is a Christian nation.

You'd be surprised - soon I may be forced to retract my previous statement about religion not being a problem here. My vision turned red yesterday when I learned that the public service TV is going to broadcast LIVE coverage of the inauguration of the new archbishop of Prague. I was like "What the hell?! Who the frak is interested in it besides perhaps a small group of die-hard southern Moravian Catholics?" Such a waste of time paid from taxpayers' money

I see a worrying tendency of the public service TV&radio channels to shove more religion down our throats (obviously they became convinced that in the interest of objectiveness and balance, they need to hyper-over-represent the religious minority's views). This at the time when a government report claims that most schools 'hire' external 'experts' to run optional sex-ed classes - and guess who these experts are. Yeah, all kinds of religious nuts because they're willing to do it for free. Of course it's all 'just' a 'nice talk' about how condoms are not 100% efficient, how other forms of contraception are harmful and how the best way to avoid problems is to avoid sex altogether Fortunately the Ministry of Education at least recognized this is a problem.

On a brighter note, the only openly religious party isn't likely to get to the Parliament in this year's election (it would be the first time since 1989 they failed to get at least some seats). I'll open a bottle of champagne if this comes true.

 

[Yared]

One could feel angry and upset that something like this happened within the Catholic Church. Of course it doesn't mean that you blame everybody in the Church for it, but rather that if something so vile and disgusting happens within the walls of that which is the utmost Holy and Sacred, something is terribly fishy...

 

[TheLastOne36]

I am and always will be culturally catholic. I was brought up that way and these traditions stick, such as easter.

But I am an Athiest, because the whole idea of Religion is silly to me, especially when there is such a thing called Evolution.

I hope that doesn't contradict itself, basically I do Catholic traditions because they are kinda family traditions, but I am an athiest.

 

[Evie]

I'm a Quebecer. The Catholic church here, by and large, is Roman Catholic in name only. A few of the higher ups still make Vatican-minded declarations, but local priests, in my experience, tend to be the people's church more than the Vatican's church.

So probably not leaving, because there really is little point in leaving.

 

[coffee junkie]

One could feel angry and upset that something like this happened within the Catholic Church. Of course it doesn't mean that you blame everybody in the Church for it, but rather that if something so vile and disgusting happens within the walls of that which is the utmost Holy and Sacred.

Yes of course. It's fully understandable why people are more chocked because the Church should be as far as possible an example. But it's not the fisrt time in History the Church is failing in its duty.

And I don't see any monotheist religion able to show today any right examples to human kind ...

Anyway, a crime is a crime, whoever commit it. And pedophily is certainly one of the most vile and disgusting one. It must be judged as well it's commited by a priest or by whoever else.

 

[naterator]

Anyway, a crime is a crime, whoever commit it. And pedophily is certainly one of the most vile and disgusting one. It must be judged as well it's commited by a priest or by whoever else.

This is precisely why so many are angry with the church. Yes, it must be judged, by an actual judge. The church has insured the VAST majority of these crimes go unpunished.

After years of inaction, the United States Conference of Bishops developed a charter governing how the church would protect children that included a zero tolerance policy, background checks and prevention training.

It also established a National Review Board led by lay people to monitor progress and granted access to church files for researchers from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

They found that more than 4,392 Catholic priests and deacons sexually abused at least 10,677 American children between 1950 and 2002.

Just 615 of those incidents had been reported to law enforcement and only 384 clergy members were criminally charged, resulting in 252 convictions.

More than 700 priests and deacons were removed from or voluntarily left ministry between January 2002 and December 2003 due to allegations of sexual abuse.

A further 3,091 abusive clergy and 4,568 victims were identified from 2004 through 2009, according to a report published last month.

 

[coffee junkie]

This is precisely why so many are angry with the church. Yes, it must be judged, by an actual judge. The church has insured the VAST majority of these crimes go unpunished.

Angry ? But we all should be angry. Everywhere in the world, in many parts of our civil societies, we can see the return ( or continuity ) of a kinda "reign of status and privileges" and almost nothing is changing.

Yes, I'm angry against the Church who hided for so long times such crimes. But pedophily is commited by so many people around the world than suddenly I wonder what kind of human kind are we becoming. And that's to me more worry and more angry than only Catholic Church.

So, I point more on the crime itself. And these crimes must be judged by civil law. Everywhere they are commited.

I already said it in a previous post.

These pedophily affairs are serious because they are pedophily affairs, not because they come from The Church.

You can't say : I leave the Church because of these affairs. If you leave the Church, leave it for good reasons ( your faith or non-faith, your believes, etc ... )

Pedophily is a real serious problem. Not a reason to believe or not believe in God or deny any branch of any religion !

Few years ago, police arrested a big pedophily network in Switzerland. 1300 people involved. Most of them were teachers, school directors, doctors, psychanalists, etc ... most of them were in touch with children in their work.

Statistics show that there are more pedophily affairs in protestant majority countries than in catholic majority countries. But pedophily is important too in Asia, and in fact everywhere in the world. Let's face it. Humanity is sick.

Are you going to say or open a thread in a forum : I'm not anymore protestant or I'll not send anymore my children to school ?

Pedophily must be stopped everywhere. So The Church when trying to hide these affairs is guilty, not because it's The Catholic Church but because pedophily is a crime.

 

[naterator]

So, I point more on the crime itself. And these crimes must be judged by civil law. Everywhere they are commited.

I was more saying that the serious crime of covering up thousands of other crimes, and in many cases making the problem exponentially worse by moving offenders from place to place, providing them with fresh victims, rather then turning them in IS a good reason to leave the church, on par with disbeleif and difference of beleif.

 

[coffee junkie]

I was more saying that the serious crime of covering up thousands of other crimes, and in many cases making the problem exponentially worse by moving offenders from place to place, providing them with fresh victims, rather then turning them in IS a good reason to leave the church, on par with disbeleif and difference of beleif.

I disagree on this point.

None nations guilty of crimes or lies ( not genocides ) has been punished in a court of justice.

Recent examples are numerous. South-Africa, Balkans, USA, and so on ...

Catholicism is a faith, a religion. The Church has a state : the Vatican. Catholic priests commiting crimes are guilty and have to be judged for sure.

But for a catholic, leaving the church is a non-sense outside a question of faith and believes.

To change The Church, it has to be done from inside, by the catholics themselves. Not by you, not by me.

Catholics should make their own revolution inside the Church. Not outside. It's a matter of integrity.

But for the crimes commited, pedophily, a court of justice can intend action. In 3 countries, priests have been judged and sent to jail ( in Spain, United Kingdom and France )

 

[NBAfan]

That is how the Church will be fixed, from the inside.

 

[Winner]

The only reason why I don't want it to collapse completely is that many of its subjects would happily join all kinds of crazy evangelical cults and start spreading insanity outside the US.

But hopefully this will make people realize that priests are no better than normal people. It's a first step, to demystify religion. Then it will be easier to bring down.

 

[naterator]

I disagree on this point.

None nations guilty of crimes or lies ( not genocides ) has been punished in a court of justice.

Recent examples are numerous. South-Africa, Balkans, USA, and so on ...

Catholicism is a faith, a religion. The Church has a state : the Vatican. Catholic priests commiting crimes are guilty and have to be judged for sure.

But for a catholic, leaving the church is a non-sense outside a question of faith and believes.

To change The Church, it has to be done from inside, by the catholics themselves. Not by you, not by me.

Catholics should make their own revolution inside the Church. Not outside. It's a matter of integrity.

But for the crimes commited, pedophily, a court of justice can intend action. In 3 countries, priests have been judged and sent to jail ( in Spain, United Kingdom and France )

Well, i guess we'll agree to disagree then, for i certainly would consider several thousand cases of sexual assault reason enough to leave any organization.

The fact that it is a religion is irrelevant. If civfanatics management had been secretly aiding and abeting thousands of child molesters (and using member donations to pay off the victims) i would certainly stop posting here. I would still play civ, maybe even join another, similar community; but no way i'd continue that affiliation.

 

[Lord Gay]

This at the time when a government report claims that most schools 'hire' external 'experts' to run optional sex-ed classes - and guess who these experts are. Yeah, all kinds of religious nuts because they're willing to do it for free.

That's horrible. It's better to have no sex ed than false sex ed. Pumping religious propaganda into those kids isn't going to help anyone. Well, nobody except the religion.

The only reason why I don't want it to collapse completely is that many of its subjects would happily join all kinds of crazy evangelical cults and start spreading insanity outside the US.

But hopefully this will make people realize that priests are no better than normal people. It's a first step, to demystify religion. Then it will be easier to bring down.

A handful of crazy groups are much easier to deal with than a large, centralized org.

Sadly, I think this scandal will have very little effect, if any. People are still going to Church, gladly giving donations to pay for the lawsuits. Priests are still molesting, and the Church is doing nothing. Well, they're blaming gays, and most seem to believe them. So the Church isn't penitent over their actions, they're only sorry they were caught. They continue to hold themselves above civil law, and members seem fine with that.

I would love to see the Church shatter like glass, but I think all this has done is put a tiny scratch on the organization. It's big news now, but in ten years everybody will have forgotten it.

EDIT fixed tags

 

[flying toaster]

The fact that it is a religion is irrelevant. If civfanatics management had been secretly aiding and abeting thousands of child molesters (and using member donations to pay off the victims) i would certainly stop posting here. I would still play civ, maybe even join another, similar community; but no way i'd continue that affiliation.

Isn't a bit pointless to do so ?
I mean, the empty chair is a way to protest and all but it only works on a diplomatic plan.

Thing is, the fact that is is a religion is relevant. If everyone left the Church, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't change in a way we want them to change. They'd probably hide more : which is not what people want.

I would better go with NBAfan and coffeejunkie : Church have to do like they already did long ago : change from the inside. Ok, right, for Vatican II it didn't end up really good since the guy got killed ... but well, timed change and if it had to happen again, I suppose it wouldn't turned out the way it did.

People can't seriously expect Church to change because they leave. In these days were people are deserting churches ? Come on' ...

 

[NBAfan]

The only reason why I don't want it to collapse completely is that many of its subjects would happily join all kinds of crazy evangelical cults and start spreading insanity outside the US.

But hopefully this will make people realize that priests are no better than normal people. It's a first step, to demystify religion. Then it will be easier to bring down.

You could save yourself a lot of effort by figuering out that the Church can't and will never be brought down.

 

[coffee junkie]

Well, i guess we'll agree to disagree then, for i certainly would consider several thousand cases of sexual assault reason enough to leave any organization.

The fact that it is a religion is irrelevant. If civfanatics management had been secretly aiding and abeting thousands of child molesters (and using member donations to pay off the victims) i would certainly stop posting here. I would still play civ, maybe even join another, similar community; but no way i'd continue that affiliation.

Did you left your country when everybody knows US government ( and many other ones ) lied and that these lies brought war, suffering, death ?

Despite these facts, you continue you way as everybody else. If things have to change in better, it's because people are fighting, in their way, everyday.

So, why do you want catholics leave their church? Catholic Church is not a wealthy organization and has to change and evolve but it is not the absolute Evil ... Pure fantasy from paranoia minds. Not an argument at all.

If churches in Europe are so empty of catholics, there are good reasons. The first one is surely the difficulty for a catholic to follow his Church on matters such as gays, abortion, contraceptive, etc ..., and of course pedophily. But it doesn't mean catholics want to see their Chuch collapsed.

By the way, is a court of justice going to suit the priests ???

 

[naterator]

Did you left your country when everybody knows US government ( and many other ones ) lied and that these lies brought war, suffering, death ?

Despite these facts, you continue you way as everybody else. If things have to change in better, it's because people are fighting, in their way, everyday.

So, why do you want catholics leave their church? Catholic Church is not a wealthy organization and has to change and evolve but it is not the absolute Evil ... Pure fantasy from paranoia minds. Not an argument at all.

If churches in Europe are so empty of catholics, there are good reasons. The first one is surely the difficulty for a catholic to follow his Church on matters such as gays, abortion, contraceptive, etc ..., and of course pedophily. But it doesn't mean catholics want to see their Chuch collapsed.

By the way, is a court of justice going to suit the priests ???

Yes, i disagree with various things the u.s. has done, even more than i disagree with what the catholic church has done; but moving thousands of miles to a land where i know nobody, have no job, and am not a citizen is asking alot more than simply not going to church on sundays, or simply attending a different church. I'm sure there's plenty of other religions that would be glad to have them.
I never said that the catholic church was the absolute evil (i may think it, but i haven't argued that at all), but by it's own admission it has been destroying records of internal investigations of serious crimes that it then decided not to report to authorities for at least 60 years. During that time, there is overwhelming evidence that the church has acted with far more concern for it's public image than the safety of it's members. It is for that reason i would expect catholics to leave the church. Your moral authority is revoked when your bishops move priests who have admitted to molesting children to work with children elsewhere. Your moral authority is revoked when your institutional schools become sexual slavery centers.

 

[Winner]

That's horrible. It's better to have no sex ed than false sex ed. Pumping religious propaganda into those kids isn't going to help anyone. Well, nobody except the religion.

Fortunately the compulsory sex-ed classes are still run by the teachers and must conform to certain standards.

But yeah, it's terrible we're allowing religious people to openly preach their ideas at schools. Especially since in this country, ANY political agitation at schools is strictly forbidden (after 40 years of political brainwashing during the Communist Era, this seemed a good thing to enact). Somehow, religion always tries to sneak to schools - it really loves abusing children, doesn't it?

You could save yourself a lot of effort by figuering out that the Church can't and will never be brought down.

So tell me, you have a magic crystal ball through which you can see the future? Can I see it? I'd really like to know a few other things, if you don't mind...