Causes of the Collapse of the Soviet Union

[Heretic_Cata]

Communism was the main cause for the collapse of the soviet union.

 

[Louis XXIV]

And that's where we go once again into the dangers of simplification. Considering the Soviet Union owes its 80 year existence to communism, I don't think it makes sense to simplify the cause of its collapse to communism.

Certainly, economically, many of the issues could be attributed to the bureaucratic structure that didn't respond well to need and was basically a broken system. But the same messed up system worked when Stalin was in charge. There were also other economic factors related more to their satellite states than to internal economics.

Certainly, the communist party was partly at fault. For one thing, the Oligarchy's need for stability had led itself to an entrenched system that had basically become a gerontocracy (gone were the days when Stalin could kill people and bring in new blood). But this doesn't explain why a young reformer like Gorbachev, couldn't have reformed the system. Afterall, his opposition clearly was weak (yes, there was a coup, but the coup didn't have the spirit of Bolsheviks of the past).

And none of this explains why the Soviet Union broke apart instead of simply changing governmental and economic structure.

 

[Karalysia]

Socialism Betrayed holds that Gorbachev's reforms are at fault for the collapse. It makes a compelling arguement I find myself agreeing, its Gorbachev's fault.

 

[Cutlass]

And none of this explains why the Soviet Union broke apart instead of simply changing governmental and economic structure.

It broke apart because it was a transnational empire only held together with an iron boot. After decades of failing to deliver what it promised, there was no loyalty to the center. Once the iron boot was withdrawn, in the hopes of enlivening the whole system, people who had no reason to be loyal to the center, and plenty of reason to dislike the center, just went their own way.

You cannot allow people freedom and expect people to continue to do what you want them to unless you have made what you want them to do more attractive than the alternative. The Soviet system as a whole failed to do that. Enough information made it in from the West so that they knew that the West was better off.

 

[RedRalph]

It broke apart because it was a transnational empire only held together with an iron boot. After decades of failing to deliver what it promised, there was no loyalty to the center. Once the iron boot was withdrawn, in the hopes of enlivening the whole system, people who had no reason to be loyal to the center, and plenty of reason to dislike the center, just went their own way.

You cannot allow people freedom and expect people to continue to do what you want them to unless you have made what you want them to do more attractive than the alternative. The Soviet system as a whole failed to do that. Enough information made it in from the West so that they knew that the West was better off.

That wasn't the cause. If that was how things worked, no Chinese would ever return to China once they left.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Socialism Betrayed holds that Gorbachev's reforms are at fault for the collapse. It makes a compelling arguement I find myself agreeing, its Gorbachev's fault.

Then again, the system was clearly broken. I'm not sure what else he could have done considering both the internal and external pressures the Soviet Union was facing.

 

[xchen08]

That wasn't the cause. If that was how things worked, no Chinese would ever return to China once they left.

Umm what?

First, very few do, and those few are offered very attractive deals monetarily. The Soviet Union can hardly afford to bribe its own citizens to be loyal.

Second, China is not a transnational empire. Ethnic nationalism in China is alive and well, and unlike the Soviet Union, supporting the government rather than opposing it.

Third, what do a few Chinese returning to the vibrant capitalist economy of China with very good offers have to do with the SU's communist economy being unable to offer anything similar?

 

[RedRalph]

Umm what?

First, very few do, and those few are offered very attractive deals monetarily. The Soviet Union can hardly afford to bribe its own citizens to be loyal.

Second, China is not a transnational empire. Ethnic nationalism in China is alive and well, and unlike the Soviet Union, supporting the government rather than opposing it.

Third, what do a few Chinese returning to the vibrant capitalist economy of China with very good offers have to do with the SU's communist economy being unable to offer anything similar?

Huge amounts of Chinese immigrants do in fact return to China, the majority AFAIK. My point is that even when people have been shown what is a 'freer' and more gainful life, they still often return home. Chinese people can generally have a higher standard of living here in ireland than they can in China, but they still tend to go back home.

 

[Karalysia]

Then again, the system was clearly broken. I'm not sure what else he could have done considering both the internal and external pressures the Soviet Union was facing.

He should have followed Androprov's reforms. It's said by certain members of the CIA that if Andranoprov was 15 years younger when he took power, then the USSR would still exist today.

 

[Cutlass]

That wasn't the cause. If that was how things worked, no Chinese would ever return to China once they left.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. There are two aspects of the collapse of the USSR and Warsaw Pact. One is the failure of the economic policy (and I truly do not care to spark a rehash of how good, bad, or indifferent they were as communists, socialists, or Marxists, the simple fact is that no matter what they were, they failed at it.) And the other aspect is that the USSR was a transnational empire that was a successor state to the Russian empire and the Warsaw Pact nations were satellite states of that empire. None of the people of the imperial possessions and vassal states of the Russian empire had any reason to be loyal citizens of the Russian empire. They were were not Russians. So once he empire allowed them enough freedom to make a choice, they broke away.

 

[xchen08]

Huge amounts of Chinese immigrants do in fact return to China, the majority AFAIK. My point is that even when people have been shown what is a 'freer' and more gainful life, they still often return home. Chinese people can generally have a higher standard of living here in ireland than they can in China, but they still tend to go back home.

First of all you're wrong unless by "immigrants" you are referring to students on student visas. More importantly and to the point though, Chinese nationals returning to China with a Western degree, English proficiency, and experience in various fields have a very high standard of living. Just because the majority of Chinese are poor peasants doesn't mean that the upper-middle classes which a returnee would slot into are any poorer than they are in the West. Indeed, in most aspects, they have a far higher standard of living, since most costs are low. For instance, live-in servants and eating out daily at high quality restaurants is possible for the middle class in China.

 

[RedRalph]

First of all you're wrong unless by "immigrants" you are referring to students on student visas. More importantly and to the point though, Chinese nationals returning to China with a Western degree, English proficiency, and experience in various fields have a very high standard of living. Just because the majority of Chinese are poor peasants doesn't mean that the upper-middle classes which a returnee would slot into are any poorer than they are in the West. Indeed, in most aspects, they have a far higher standard of living, since most costs are low. For instance, live-in servants and eating out daily at high quality restaurants is possible for the middle class in China.

Well, yeah, I do generally mean students with student visas, almost all og whom work, and hence are immigrants. some stay, most go back to China after a few years.

 

[ParkCungHee]

That wasn't the cause. If that was how things worked, no Chinese would ever return to China once they left.

The Chinese have a reason to be loyal. The real question is how many Tibetans or Uyghurs return to China, (Not counting the Armed Uyghurs).

 

[RedRalph]

The Chinese have a reason to be loyal. The real question is how many Tibetans or Uyghurs return to China, (Not counting the Armed Uyghurs).

I dont think many leave in the first place. Besides, do you honestly believe loyalty to a government stems from ethnicity?

 

[Yeekim]

I dont think many leave in the first place. Besides, do you honestly believe loyalty to a government stems from ethnicity?

Do you honestly believe that if you broke down the figures, ethnic Uyghurs and Tibetans were on average just as loyal to Chinese government as ethnic Chinese?

 

[ParkCungHee]

I dont think many leave in the first place. Besides, do you honestly believe loyalty to a government stems from ethnicity?

Yes, yes I do. One would have to be blind to the explosion of nationalism worldwide over the past 200 years. It is without exaggeration, probably the single most successful idea in political history. So yes, I belive that Chinese people are more likely to feel loyalty to a Chinese government especially a Chinese Government who's claim to authority is based on nationalist appeal.

 

[RedRalph]

Do you honestly believe that if you broke down the figures, ethnic Uyghurs and Tibetans were on average just as loyal to Chinese government as ethnic Chinese?

Do you honestly believe that loyalty comes from ethnicity or from a political and economic relationship? Seriously?

 

[RedRalph]

Yes, yes I do. One would have to be blind to the explosion of nationalism worldwide over the past 200 years. It is without exaggeration, probably the single most successful idea in political history. So yes, I belive that Chinese people are more likely to feel loyalty to a Chinese government especially a Chinese Government who's claim to authority is based on nationalist appeal.

That's pretty funny, considering they beat an actual nationalist government to win the civil war.

 

[Yeekim]

Do you honestly believe that loyalty comes from ethnicity or from a political and economic relationship? Seriously?

There is a clear correlation between the two, effectively giving the same result...
Anyway, which "economic relationships" then do you think contribute to the phenomenon you described?

Huge amounts of Chinese immigrants do in fact return to China, the majority AFAIK. My point is that even when people have been shown what is a 'freer' and more gainful life, they still often return home. Chinese people can generally have a higher standard of living here in ireland than they can in China, but they still tend to go back home.

 

[RedRalph]

There is a clear correlation between the two, effectively giving the same result...
Anyway, which "economic relationships" then do you think contribute to the phenomenon you described?

And as we all know, correlation isnt causation. Ethnicity has little if anything top do with it, people who benefit from the CCP's government are more likely to be loyal to it, whether they are Han, Tibetan or ethnically Zulu