Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Toffer90]

I don't like how hunting instruction just gives out a free promotion, basically obsoleting a choice at level up.
If a building should give a promotion it should be a unique promotion that only the building can provide like Tattoo or poison tips; unless it's a wonder or a limited building, like the shaman/druidic high tier buildings (the one that gives woodsman/guerilla).

I propose hunting instruction gets this instead:

Spoiler :

		<!-- Unit effects -->
		<UnitCombatFreeExperiences>
			<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
				<iExperience>1</iExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
			<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
				<iExperience>1</iExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
			<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_THROWING</UnitCombatType>
				<iExperience>1</iExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
			<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
				<iExperience>2</iExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
			<UnitCombatFreeExperience>
				<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER</UnitCombatType>
				<iExperience>4</iExperience>
			</UnitCombatFreeExperience>
		</UnitCombatFreeExperiences>

Another example would be aggressive trait that both give a unique promotion (think it's called "Aggressive") as well as "Combat I". This one is actually more justified as traits are supposed to have a larger impact than 1 cheap building.

 

[Rwn]

I don't like how hunting instruction just gives out a free promotion, basically obsoleting a choice at level up.
If a building should give a promotion it should be a unique promotion that only the building can provide like Tattoo or poison tips; unless it's a wonder or a limited building, like the shaman/druidic high tier buildings (the one that gives woodsman/guerilla).

That philosophy sounds good.

I propose hunting instruction gets this instead:
(...)

Giving xp to so many different unit classes seems unnecessary. A single +2 xp to hunters (or recons, since for some reason every hunter primarly belongs to the recon combat type) would amply justify building it since you'd effectively give a first promotion to hunters with it. Then the master hunter is enough to give a second one.

 

[Toffer90]

Giving xp to so many different unit classes seems unnecessary. A single +2 xp to hunters (or recons, since for some reason every hunter primarly belongs to the recon combat type) would amply justify building it since you'd effectively give a first promotion to hunters with it. Then the master hunter is enough to give a second one.

I totally agree 2 XP to hunters and 1 XP to recons seems more reasonable.
I chose those classes as that are the classes that got a free hunter promotion from it as it is now.

The reason I brought this up is because it upset what my promotion modmod is trying to achieve, to reduce amount of promos available at once; I wanted Hunter I promotion to unlock 3 other promotions so this was rendered mute by every unit getting hunter for free

 

[Toffer90]

Game launch only takes 12 seconds now on ssd, this is quite the improvement since v35 was released. ^^

 

[strategyonly]

Game launch only takes 12 seconds now on ssd, this is quite the improvement since v35 was released. ^^

Yes and turn times had dramatically been waaay better also, as long as WE can keep it under 20-25 seconds per turn for 20 Civs and under after Transhuman Era, I'd be very happy, I only play with less than 9 civs myself.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That philosophy sounds good.



Giving xp to so many different unit classes seems unnecessary. A single +2 xp to hunters (or recons, since for some reason every hunter primarly belongs to the recon combat type) would amply justify building it since you'd effectively give a first promotion to hunters with it. Then the master hunter is enough to give a second one.

I totally agree 2 XP to hunters and 1 XP to recons seems more reasonable.
I chose those classes as that are the classes that got a free hunter promotion from it as it is now.

The reason I brought this up is because it upset what my promotion modmod is trying to achieve, to reduce amount of promos available at once; I wanted Hunter I promotion to unlock 3 other promotions so this was rendered mute by every unit getting hunter for free

I completely agree that it would be more interesting to give +2 xp to hunters and as for recon, unless they have another balancing source of xp from something else likely to be had around the same time (maybe some of the animal buildings account for that). I'd be personally inclined to suggest a simple +2 to Explorers.

 

[Taxman66]

Please note that this suggestion significantly weakens the building.
A free promo is better than 2xp as it doesn't mean that the next level/promo costs more.
Additionally you are removing the promo from other units... that are used to guard against neanderthals and occasionally attack/hunt if only to get the animal before a foreign civ's hunter can.

 

[Toffer90]

@Taxman66:
To me, all those points you make, is the reason it needs to be changed.

 

[Taxman66]

Why does it need to be nerfed?

 

[Toffer90]

Because it was unreasonably good and because it made everyone into hunters.

If you want your warriors to subdue animals it should cost you a battle promotion.

Hunters have it too easy.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Because it was unreasonably good and because it made everyone into hunters.

If you want your warriors to subdue animals it should cost you a battle promotion.

Hunters have it too easy.

Is this the Woodsman Promo you all are talking about?

JosEPh

 

[Toffer90]

Is this the Woodsman Promo you all are talking about?

JosEPh

Nah, we are talking about making the hunting instruction building give XP instead of the free hunter I promotion.

 

[jshetley]

I don't think I'll be playing size matters again since it effectively destroys the navy. You now how to build SIX canoes to do what ONE does without it. And besides that the ships lost all kinds of strength unless you merge them. That WAY too big of a nerf.

 

[Toffer90]

What you describe only applies to canoes, kayaks, and rafts. I'm guessing you're angry at the animals eating your early ships. when you get outriggers ONE does more or less the same with Size Matters as ONE without size matters. This will probably be subject to re-balancing at a later stage.

But it's your choice whether to use it or not.

 

[jshetley]

What you describe only applies to canoes, kayaks, and rafts. I'm guessing you're angry at the animals eating your early ships. when you get outriggers ONE does more or less the same with Size Matters as ONE without size matters. This will probably be subject to re-balancing at a later stage.

But it's your choice whether to use it or not.

I actually did not mind that too a whole lot but I really hate the cargo nerf. That's why I have 2 build 6 canoes to do what 1 does without size matters. I can understand the strength nerf without merging, but why the cargo. That does not make since seeing that my settler had not been merged nor had my archer. And if my archer had been merged I have no clue how I would get it to another continant.

 

[Toffer90]

I agree with the creator of size matters(ThunderBird); that settlers/tribes should take up more space in a ship than a group of soldiers. You're argument could be turned around as well; with size matters a canoe can carry, what, like 60 animals. But without size matters you would need 10-12 canoes. (not sure about the numbers here, but I think I'm somewhat right.)

I wouldn't call it a nerf but a change of the ground principles.

I'm here presuming that without size matters (I don't play without it), units take up the same amount of space, so that every transport ship can carry a certain amount of units, no matter what kind of units.
Thats how it was before size matters at least.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree with the creator of size matters(ThunderBird); that settlers/tribes should take up more space in a ship than a group of soldiers. You're argument could be turned around as well; with size matters a canoe can carry, what, like 60 animals. But without size matters you would need 10-12 canoes. (not sure about the numbers here, but I think I'm somewhat right.)

I wouldn't call it a nerf but a change of the ground principles.

I'm here presuming that without size matters (I don't play without it), units take up the same amount of space, so that every transport ship can carry a certain amount of units, no matter what kind of units.
Thats how it was before size matters at least.

It was/is.


Question: Are we having a hard time merging canoes?

Points: If animals in the water are never a ruthless challenge at any stage then why have them in the game at all? Is it really fun having an endless collection run? Does it not feel more like an achievement to break free from this danger? Does it not begin to start making the realworld comparison of danger a little more realistic?

Obviously a shark isn't going to do much to a galley. But to a kayak? That guy in the water could be in very real danger if he had a run-in with a naval animal with a bad temper. Yet when we look back in history, we see cultures that have mastered the art of bringing in huge fish and whale kills in craft we can't imagine how they could've managed to do it in. (XP and leveled units)

Another point: Is it not possible to merge a few early naval units so as to ensure survival? So it's 'get out there quickly' vs 'get out there safely' - another 'interesting decision'.

Another point: Just how many people do you think would fit in a canoe? How many canoes would it take to get 100 soldiers across the water? This was the calculation that came up with the results you see.

 

[Liquidated]

If there was one additional city build filter I'd want, it would be to show only buildings that supply resources I have zero of. Not sure how difficult it would be to add such a filter, but I can at least recommend an existing icon for the button: Candy


Cheers!
-Liquidated

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If there was one additional city build filter I'd want, it would be to show only buildings that supply resources I have zero of. Not sure how difficult it would be to add such a filter, but I can at least recommend an existing icon for the button: Candy


Cheers!
-Liquidated

It is one I want also.

 

[Toffer90]

Question: Are we having a hard time merging canoes?

Another point: Is it not possible to merge a few early naval units so as to ensure survival? So it's 'get out there quickly' vs 'get out there safely' - another 'interesting decision'.

3 kayaks merged to one is pretty much doomed even against anything still, but 3 canoes merged to 1 can survive most except great white sharks and orcas.

Another point: Just how many people do you think would fit in a canoe? How many canoes would it take to get 100 soldiers across the water? This was the calculation that came up with the results you see.

I'm pretty sure one needs 3 canoes to fit a settler and to me this seems perfectly reasonable; it just slows down island colonization until galleys.