Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Yoruba and Tengri should probably be swapped. There should be 3 versions of Yoruba.

Christianity should be mid to late Classical.

Cao Dai should be Modern Era.

I will need to look at fixing that next release. Also check if we have implimented the poly or monotheistic version of Hindu.
I found Christianity location in tech tree bit weird too.
As for Medieval era wasn't it designed to start in 600 AD?
Islam started in 610 - 630 AD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Muhammad_(610–632)
This means it would be very early in Medieval.
CaoDai was placed in last column of Industrial era originally.
 
I also still STRONGLY feel that Atheism and Agnosticism should be reflected in the game as religions since they compete for a person's claim to religious affiliation. They certainly wouldn't work quite the same but when the Ideas project finally gets religious affiliations among the population being measured in %s, this will be critical to have them as religions themselves.

Sure they could be there as "religions" that are not religions with their own building chains. Naturally they would be balanced less on culture and more on science.
 
Yeah my edit later showed that I came to realize this is probably what he meant.
Yesd that is what I meant.

Far more influencing in the world has been the division between Protestant and Catholic Christianity.

We would like to get Great Spirit (Cherokee) and Dreamtime (Australian Aborigine) as religions put in play soon as well.

I also still STRONGLY feel that Atheism and Agnosticism should be reflected in the game as religions since they compete for a person's claim to religious affiliation. They certainly wouldn't work quite the same but when the Ideas project finally gets religious affiliations among the population being measured in %s, this will be critical to have them as religions themselves.
I have stuff for Coptic, Catholic and Protestant Christianity somewhere. Also Dreamtime both animist and non-animist.
We have three non-theist religions in game at the moment. Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. I see both Agnosticism and Atheism more as Civics but we would need to split the current religion Civic into two to support what is needed. One is Religious World View (or something) which has something like
  • Spiritualism,
  • Animism,
  • Polytheism,
  • Monotheism,
  • Non-theism,
  • Atheism,
  • Post Atheism.
 
I see both Agnosticism and Atheism more as Civics but we would need to split the current religion Civic into two to support what is needed
They may be civics but that doesn't make them not valid as religions. They must be religions. This is so that when we are tracking what percent of a population believes what, these forms of hesitant or non-belief can be represented in that percentage.

Then they don't even really need to be a civic - free religion may be. Adopting Atheism as a state religion is the equivalence of a religion ban. But it could be seen a little differently still I suppose if you had some civics that were able to blend into these as religions.
 
Atheists believe very strongly that there is nothing divine in this world, agnostics believe that there is something divine in this world but that no human organization can ever get it right.
They both build their ethics and philosophical world view based on those foundations though the agnostic world view often resembles a non-believer in many ways.

True non-believers are very rare, and very hard to describe, they build their ethics and philosophical world view on what they see, feel, and know, and accept that there is a lot they cannot know and therefore their philosophy is fluid/non-rigid with few absolutes. Their ethics would usually be wholly based on simple logical truths as "the more people who treats others with respect and kindness, the better life would be for everyone in general" that leads to notions like "do not to others what you would not want them to do to yourself", narcissist cannot be non-believers, they believe very strongly that they themselves are special, a true non-believer would be very humble.
They live day by day more like any other animal would and are in some ways open minded to the world like a child would be, but they are also intrinsically skeptical to any notions presented to them that lack solid proof.
They would be skeptical to all beliefs, not even see the point in any of them, and that includes both the atheist and agnostics beliefs, as they are intangible. They would also be skeptical to the big bang theory and find all political isms overrated.
They would not understand why other people ask the typical "big questions", and live life from day to day more like any other animal would do, dealing with the tangible rather than wasting thoughts and time on the intangible.

Savants, autistic, or people with asperger's syndrome are naturally inclined to be non-believers, though nothing is really stopping others from being a non-believer.

These are my subjective ideas on the matter, feel free to "non-believe" them as I myself would do, because subjective opinions always lack solid proof. ^^
 
Yeah my edit later showed that I came to realize this is probably what he meant. That'd be a pretty big shift in strategies. Might be nice to have Yoruba earlier. Some rebalancing would be in order of course but I'm sure DH has the ideas down on how to go about that. Yoruba's origin date IS pretty mysterious, but it's clear they do have a pretty strong influence from Sumer as well... though it might be as much the other way around.
Yoruba is one of those religions that seems to be continuous from animist through polytheist to monotheistic. Its animistic phase is dated to around 9000BCE. There are no dates yet for the polytheistic version but the monotheistic version seems to be a response to Christianity and Islam. Mid-Eastern animism dates to around 12000BCE but that is pre Sumer which is settled at around 5000BCE. It is possible that the polytheistic version of Yoruba was influenced by Egyptian Polytheism but evidence for contact between the areas with Yoruba and the Middle East don't appear until the Iron Age. At which time a number of the Yoruba nations went from the Stone Age to the Iron Age skipping the Copper and Bronze Ages completely. Something it is difficult to do in Civ :D.
I have stuff for Coptic, Catholic and Protestant Christianity somewhere.
That should be Coptic, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant. I don't have Celtic Christianity.
 
Sure they could be there as "religions" that are not religions with their own building chains. Naturally they would be balanced less on culture and more on science.
There COULD be some buildings but it might take a little research to see what should qualify as one. That said, I'm not sure what. They could go without buildings and instead have some raw benefits for being in the city (autobuilds) instead.

narcissist cannot be non-believers, they believe very strongly that they themselves are special, a true non-believer would be very humble.
I don't think that would hold true. A lot of narcissists may just feel themselves superior and need no divine reason for that. Narcissism is usually just a coverup for an actual bad self-esteem, a reactive psychological defense to having their sense of self-worth attacked a great deal during childhood, often combined with being raised by parents that try to bring them up with a belief that they are somehow special. Nothing about this requires religion. I'm not sure psychopathy, where the person really believes they ARE God and the world revolves around them even necessarily needs religion, even if it kind of is one.

They would not understand why other people ask the typical "big questions", and live life from day to day more like any other animal would do, dealing with the tangible rather than wasting thoughts and time on the intangible.
I do know lots of folks like this. Who pretty much aren't agnostic or atheist but just really don't care enough to wonder. That seems to be the default really. Most of them though do declare a religion, whatever they were told by their parents generally works for them because they don't give a damn.
 
I wanted to add some better input once I've played the game a little longer (only going on a month or two) but have you thought of giving religion a faith property? For instance an atheist state would have a faith property in the negatives and a more religious state would have it more positive. The buildings would add to this property. The higher the property the stronger the people could be coming from these cities (missionaries, etc.). There could even be promotions to help increase the spread of religions. Atheism seems to be better addressed as such and not as a religion. Your civics then can address this property and it can even be countered through the education property and crime property. The lower the education the more likely religious based "crimes" become (stoning, etc) for religious misdeeds. For instance middle ages Spain would have a higher base faith for their religious zeal. Keep in mind I've only played the 37.5 version so this could already be in place.

You could even address culture as a property?
 
I don't think that would hold true. A lot of narcissists may just feel themselves superior and need no divine reason for that. Narcissism is usually just a coverup for an actual bad self-esteem, a reactive psychological defense to having their sense of self-worth attacked a great deal during childhood, often combined with being raised by parents that try to bring them up with a belief that they are somehow special. Nothing about this requires religion. I'm not sure psychopathy, where the person really believes they ARE God and the world revolves around them even necessarily needs religion, even if it kind of is one.

I do know lots of folks like this. Who pretty much aren't agnostic or atheist but just really don't care enough to wonder. That seems to be the default really. Most of them though do declare a religion, whatever they were told by their parents generally works for them because they don't give a damn.
You do not need a religion to be a believer, if you form your worldview based on the belief that you youreself is special, then you are a believer.
The only atheist religion I know of is the LaVeyan satanism, most atheist does not have a religion.
Most people in the west are disqualified as non-believers as they believe in the free market theories in the same way a religious person believes in the religions scriptures. They believe that technological progress is impossible without a free market, that infinite economical growth is a possibility and the most important thing to achieve in this life, that we must waste money (consume as much as possible) to stay wealthy, that high personal depth is the best sign of a healthy society, that there exist no alternatives, that every activity is more efficiently performed if it is privatized, that work is the goal and consumption is the way to achieve it instead of the other way around.
They often have a hard time understanding how economical growth on the paper/statistic can be an economical decline in reality when all the consequences of the activities that caused said growth has been taken into account; because it is often impossible to quantify into statistics/money the consequences that does not fit into any economical models, like ecological consequences. An economical good toady may result in an even bigger economical bad later. Short term trumps long term in the common economical theories.

Look at how today all politicians keep nagging about how people need to work more, consume more, and most folks agree even though the only solution to global warming is to work less, consume less, lower our living standard.
But people believe so strongly that economical growth and technological progress that said growth promises us will solve the climate problem without us sacrificing one inch of our living standard.

Look at how Obama was revered (especially during the election campaign), by a lot of Americans and Europeans as something close to a new messiah, all because the common believer desperately craved a modern time Saviour of some kind.
He even got the nobel peace price half a year into his presidency (oct. 2009) mainly because he signed the Russian proposed nuclear nonproliferation agreement that George W. Bush refused to sign. There were other reasons cited, but they are all imo very thin in essence. Only true believers can use arguments like "he is not bush", "He agreed with the Russians proposal", "he is going to change the world", or "his skin color makes him special" to decide who deserves a historically revered peace price that is supposed to elevate true historical champions of peace and betterment. Then the next peace price was given to a trade league by the name of EU, citing that all the wars that didn't happen in Europe after world war two was prevented by EU, hogwash, European countries was so war weary at that point that peace would have reigned the continent even without a trade league, and the up and coming economical globalization would have made the countries financially dependent on each other without the existence of EU anyhow.

Look at how Americans today insist that the USA is a banana republic in a strange attempt to rationalize the fact that a moron got elected as president. "Adds on facebook made me vote against my own political conviction", any country could have done the same and I'm sure that if the adds had been made by an scandinavian science project there would have been no allegation about Trump colluding with scandinavians to win the election.

This naturally takes us over to the strong belief a lot of folk in the west have about Russia, "Russia is bent on world domination", "Russians are evil", "Putin is aware of, personally responsible, and control everything done by any Russians or Russian speaking persons in the world", "Russia can at any moment invade the baltic countries or scandinavia even though Russias defense budget is about the same as that of England which again equals 7% of NATO's military budget.
Jens Stoltenberg (current head of NATO) is currently traveling from one NATO country to another advocating rearmament, a new arms race, and the Russian threat is his selling point.

Wow, I'm ranting again.... Sorry

Back to point, the way current religions are designed in C2C, there is imo little place for atheisms and agnosticism inside that system.
Organizations based on the Humanism movement can have a place among C2C religions, they have buildings dedicated to spreading their belief and for holding ceremonies like non-religious funeral wakes, weddings etc.
If you (TB) were to change the religion system through the ideas property you have planned, then I guess agnosticism and atheism would fit better in that system alongside other ideas like religions.
 
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@Toffer90 We are all trying to make sense of the world around us. If you use the term "believer" in such a broad sense, I don't think there is any non-believer around. What you just formulated is a belief in that sense as well, and I don't think you would really deny that. But what good does a term do that says about the same as "human being"?

The common way the term "believer" is used IMO is to believe in something without (adequate) evidence or proof. In that sense the term can help, because there are certainly both believers and non-believers in that sense. It is contested whether evidence from history counts in that sense or not (as a - mostly - Popperian with respect to science theory I would be cautious about it), but if you allow for it, you cannot deny that the - again, mostly - free market has produced a lot of technological progress, especially compared to its alternatives.

I don't think you are going to be surprised if I say that I - again, mostly (sorry) - don't agree with your post. I do agree that there are problem ahead, rather big problems indeed. To solve them will require extraordinary measures. Unlike you, however, I think that technology is going to be the solution. I think we are decades, not dozens of millennia, away from getting rid of the nuclear waste (by shooting it either into the sun, or into outer space). I think we are decades, not centuries/millennia away from solving the energy crisis in a way that offers cheap, safe energy for everyone for a very long time (fusion power). I think that we are - just - decades/centuries away from getting our population level to a point where there isn't going to be a problem (underwater/space colonization, respectively, although going to interstellar space will probably require millennia).

Perhaps I am a dreamer, but your ideas are not exactly risk-free either. Any "sustainable" civilization in the past proved to be incapable to deal with new problems. If we lose our ability to respond to new dangers, sustainability won't be worth it. And there are quite a few problems that sustainability doesn't even deal with (an asteroid impact probably being the best known one). I don't like the idea of reducing our chances to deal with those problems, and the worst problems of the day have very often been unforeseen ones (including the problems you just mentioned, from any pre-1930 perspective).
 
@Toffer90 We are all trying to make sense of the world around us. If you use the term "believer" in such a broad sense, I don't think there is any non-believer around. What you just formulated is a belief in that sense as well, and I don't think you would really deny that. But what good does a term do that says about the same as "human being"?

The common way the term "believer" is used IMO is to believe in something without (adequate) evidence or proof. In that sense the term can help, because there are certainly both believers and non-believers in that sense.
That's my point, most people perceive and act on beliefs that lack adequate evidence or proof. A true non-believer is a very rare thing indeed. Today, on Norwegian news, we were told the narrative that nazi organizations in Scandinavia wouldn't have been a big problem if they hadn't been backed by nazi-Russia. The only evidence that was presented was that two Swedish members of a known nazi group went to a Russian right wing extreme paramilitary group to learn from them. It was presented as definitive proof that Kreml is trying to conquer the world by split and conquer strategy (I'm not paraphrasing the news, that was said word by word in an interview with a Norwegian military officer and by other expert commentary) and most norwegians will readily believe the narrative presented without skepticism.
Unlike you, however, I think that technology is going to be the solution. I think we are decades, not dozens of millennia, away from getting rid of the nuclear waste (by shooting it either into the sun, or into outer space). I think we are decades, not centuries/millennia away from solving the energy crisis in a way that offers cheap, safe energy for everyone for a very long time (fusion power). I think that we are - just - decades/centuries away from getting our population level to a point where there isn't going to be a problem (underwater/space colonization, respectively, although going to interstellar space will probably require millennia).
It's your prerogative to believe that, new technology definitely helps, but saying "relax it will all be fine because new technology will fix every problem anyway" is imo a dangerous attitude. Not saying you have that attitude, just clarifying my opinion on the matter.
[Perhaps I am a dreamer, but your ideas are not exactly risk-free either. Any "sustainable" civilization in the past proved to be incapable to deal with new problems. If we lose our ability to respond to new dangers, sustainability won't be worth it. And there are quite a few problems that sustainability doesn't even deal with (an asteroid impact probably being the best known one). I don't like the idea of reducing our chances to deal with those problems, and the worst problems of the day have very often been unforeseen ones (including the problems you just mentioned, from any pre-1930 perspective).
Not sure what ideas of mine you are referring to... I didn't present any concrete ideas in my last post other than to point out some ideas I dislike.

My idea that society can work more effectively as a team than as a fragmented dog eat dog world, or my opinion that people should appreciate their old stuff more instead of constantly buying new stuff all the time, or that I think all people would be more resourceful if there's much less people on this planet today that shared wealth, resources, ideas and information much more freely with each other? I'm just spit-balling here, I have no idea what ideas of mine you may have referenced.
 
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It was presented as definitive proof that Kreml is trying to conquer the world by split and conquer strategy (I'm not paraphrasing the news, that was said word by word in an interview with a Norwegian military officer and by other expert commentary) and most norwegians will readily believe the narrative presented without skepticism.
That's certainly a problem.

It's your prerogative to believe that, new technology definitely helps, but saying "relax it will all be fine because new technology will fix every problem anyway" is imo a dangerous attitude. Not saying you have that attitude, just clarifying my opinion on the matter.
Yes, that kind of attitude would not be very helpful.

Not sure what ideas of mine you are referring to... I didn't present any concrete ideas in my last post other than to point out some ideas I dislike.
Yes, you didn't refer to sustainability (this time :)), but it was implied, I think.

My idea that society can work more effectively as a team than as a fragmented dog eat dog world, or my opinion that people should appreciate their old stuff more instead of constantly buying new stuff all the time, or that I think all people would be more resourceful if there much less people on this planet today that shared wealth, resources, ideas and information much more freely with each other? I'm just spit-balling here, I have no idea what ideas of mine you may have referenced.
All of these ideas have one common problem: They are not stable. What the ideas that work have in common is that deviation from them puts the deviator at a disadvantage. This is rather important. We don't just say that human life is important, we punish the violators (murderers) if we can. It's even more immediate with things in nature: You better be careful in the jungle before the tiger eats you. Now compare that to your ideas: Society works as a team, then a deviator (dog eats dog) arrives, what happens? People limit the number of their offspring, a deviator (someone, or perhaps rather, two people wanting a very big family) arrives, what happens? Sometimes society can handle a few deviators, OK, so wait a bit longer until a larger deviation "by pure chance" happens - again, what is the result? If your ideas cannot handle deviation of a small or medium number of people (almost no system can really handle a deviation of a large number, but those happen very rarely), it's going to be doomed.

I think it was Cicero who said that stability was the most important property of a system, and I think he was not altogether wrong. If your system is unstable, it could be extremely good, but you still have to acknowledge the kind of system it will transform into before long - if that happens to be a very bad system, it could - taken together - be a lot worse than a superficially worse but stable system.
 
ok, will hold off then, but i did a test run and it works great . .
Depends on the settings you're using. At the last minute, a fix was attempted to help adjust numbers for the easier game settings to get them better balanced between production costs and research costs and it has caused some severe disruption overall and illuminated some earlier bad choices. We'll get it fixed up but it might take longer than hoped.
 
All of these ideas have one common problem: They are not stable. What the ideas that work have in common is that deviation from them puts the deviator at a disadvantage. This is rather important. We don't just say that human life is important, we punish the violators (murderers) if we can. It's even more immediate with things in nature: You better be careful in the jungle before the tiger eats you. Now compare that to your ideas: Society works as a team, then a deviator (dog eats dog) arrives, what happens? People limit the number of their offspring, a deviator (someone, or perhaps rather, two people wanting a very big family) arrives, what happens? Sometimes society can handle a few deviators, OK, so wait a bit longer until a larger deviation "by pure chance" happens - again, what is the result? If your ideas cannot handle deviation of a small or medium number of people (almost no system can really handle a deviation of a large number, but those happen very rarely), it's going to be doomed.

I think it was Cicero who said that stability was the most important property of a system, and I think he was not altogether wrong. If your system is unstable, it could be extremely good, but you still have to acknowledge the kind of system it will transform into before long - if that happens to be a very bad system, it could - taken together - be a lot worse than a superficially worse but stable system.
That wholly depend to what degree those ideas are implemented in practical life though, something I said nothing about, (assumption on my part: "but your belief tells you that I'm spouting blasphemy so you have to disagree" (I'm not characterizing you as a person, I'm describing a behavior I perceived right now that is not an adequate basis characterize you). You are jumping to conclusions about what I say, mean, and think in a way I find unreasonable.

If I were to say that, in Norway parents get a certain amount of economical support per child they have, and that I would like to see that support completely removed, but again strengthen the economical support to the poor (a system we already have that also considers the welfare of children). My main reasoning for this is to reduce political encouragement for people to get more children. You may argue that this would encourage the poor to get more children, but I would answer that no one wants to be poor just because that gives extra child support, and that poor children need support more than well off children.
Can you argue that this is a completely unstable implementation of the idea that "More chefs does not always equal a bigger piece of pie for each chef". (Paraphrase of "I think all people would be more resourceful if there were much less people on this planet today that shared wealth, resources....")
Or that parliament, and government officials salaries should be based on the average salary of the country, instead of being three-five times the average salary in the country. That would certainly make politicians prioritize reducing the wealth gap.
Would that be an unstable implementation in your view?
Or that a civil salary (would reduce the living quality of upper classes but could potentially eliminate poverty as poverty is today) that is given to everyone that have citizenship above 18 years regardless of their employment status or wealth. How would this be unstable?

Ok, now you have some concrete implementations examples of some of my ideas. Are my opinions still blasphemous to you, or can you respect such opinions even though you don't agree?
 
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