Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Thunderbrd]

Talking about the Tech Tree where is the "Progress" technology. My history discussion group agreed it comes before City Building (not Planning) and Bronze Working. It is the idea that things can change. It would have to be after Oral Tradition/Cultural Heritage since these represent the keeping of what went before.

It would have at least two World Views associated with it. "Advance to a Golden Age" and "Decline from a Golden Age". The latter has been used my many to get reforms through by saying that they are returning things to the way they were in times of old. Queen Elizabeth I was an expert at that sort of thing.

• Advance to a Golden Age
  • boost to research, happiness, trade yields
    
  • because everyone has a different idea of the best way to do stuff
    • increased anarchy
    • increased cost to build all stuff
  • due to fast pace (relative) in technological change a boost in crime
  • lower stability
  • higher war weariness
• Decline from a Golden Age
  • malus to research
  • happiness boost (complacency)
    
  • because tradition
    • increased anarchy
    • reduced cost to build all stuff
• higher stability
• Lower war weariness

• Neutral or Neither
  
  
• Both (eg now)

I'd challenge you to find different terms for this so it doesn't come across as intruding on the current golden age concept. I think that could be done with just a little rewording. The concept seems solid enough. It's propaganda about how things are faring that you're circulating throughout the nation. Some leader traits in my upcoming system kinda reflect that and with a 'mortal leaders' mod coming up soon to go along with it, it might be sorta reflected in that what you're trying to show. But still, as worldviews it's not a bad idea - and perhaps they could even be modified under leaders with varying traits.

Obviously we don't have that tech on the tree yet so it would need to be invented into it. I've got another new one coming up soon I'll discuss shortly but if you've been following @KaTiON_PT and I on our C2C Discord channel you may already have some insight into that and some major tree re-working we have coming together.

I do think we need to put those plans up on the forum for the rest of the team to ruminate over. The Prehistoric is what we've been focusing on for now. Maybe we do all this one release version at a time moving forward from here or something.

 

[pepper2000]

Talking about the Tech Tree where is the "Progress" technology. My history discussion group agreed it comes before City Building (not Planning) and Bronze Working. It is the idea that things can change. It would have to be after Oral Tradition/Cultural Heritage since these represent the keeping of what went before.

It would have at least two World Views associated with it. "Advance to a Golden Age" and "Decline from a Golden Age". The latter has been used my many to get reforms through by saying that they are returning things to the way they were in times of old. Queen Elizabeth I was an expert at that sort of thing.

• Advance to a Golden Age
  • boost to research, happiness, trade yields
    
  • because everyone has a different idea of the best way to do stuff
    • increased anarchy
    • increased cost to build all stuff
  • due to fast pace (relative) in technological change a boost in crime
  • lower stability
  • higher war weariness
• Decline from a Golden Age
  • malus to research
  • happiness boost (complacency)
    
  • because tradition
    • increased anarchy
    • reduced cost to build all stuff
• higher stability
• Lower war weariness

• Neutral or Neither
  
  
• Both (eg now)

Interesting idea. I'm not sure "Progress" is a very good name; that concept is one that I associate more with the Enlightenment period. Maybe "History", though history as an intellectual discipline is commonly dated to Herodotus, early Classical Era. The worldviews might also fit into an existing tech, like Community or Ideograms. Incidentally, you referred to "City Building", which would also be a good addition to the tech tree.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

.. but if you've been following @KaTiON_PT and I on our C2C Discord channel .

I have not been able to get Discord to work on this machine. I had it working on my other machine, the one that went boom.

I'd challenge you to find different terms for this so it doesn't come across as intruding on the current golden age concept.

"Things are getting Better" and "Things are getting Worse" was the alternative. I do feel it would link in with your ideas on complacency.

Interesting idea. I'm not sure "Progress" is a very good name; that concept is one that I associate more with the Enlightenment period. Maybe "History", though history as an intellectual discipline is commonly dated to Herodotus, early Classical Era. The worldviews might also fit into an existing tech, like Community or Ideograms. Incidentally, you referred to "City Building", which would also be a good addition to the tech tree.

It originally came up in an interesting collaboration on YouTube on the Bronze Age.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

@Dancing Hoskuld I'll share the WIP tree, units and buildings still need to be rearranged and balanced.

 

[Yudishtira]

"Things are getting Better" and "Things are getting Worse" was the alternative. I do feel it would link in with your ideas on complacency.

Sanguinity and Nostalgia?

 

[Thunderbrd]

City Building

It's called Sedentary Lifestyle.

"Things are getting Better" and "Things are getting Worse" was the alternative. I do feel it would link in with your ideas on complacency.

I completely agree. I'm still quite fond of that concept.

As for the name... doesn't it depend on whether things actually are getting worse or not?

One set of positive and negative traits I have represents the positive or negative outlook on progress by the leader.

So is this maybe a similar national outlook that's being adopted? A general optimistic view on change and progress or a generally fearful view of it, such as was highlighted in the Croods movie?

It originally came up in an interesting collaboration on YouTube on the Bronze Age.

And why aren't we all involved in that discussion??? Wanted to keep this rabble out huh?

 

[pepper2000]

It's called Sedentary Lifestyle.

I was under the impression that the two were distinct historical events, though a lot of it depends on what we understand to be a "city".

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was under the impression that the two were distinct historical events, though a lot of it depends on what we understand to be a "city".

Maybe so. And of course that definition of what a city is certainly is up for some discussion.

 

[Yudishtira]

Catalhuyuk is clearly a city in 7000BC. As for any others, after a quick scan it appears there is no strong evidence whether or not (there were any). And that's until something like 4000BC. I think we can all agree 4000 is a long time after (the idealized timing of) Sed Life in the game. Therefore I would categorize Catalhuyuk as a pre-City Building WW, and place City Building tech around mid-Ancient.

 

[Thunderbrd]

According to my previous readings, there were cities in Sumeria in 6k BC.

I've always figured that was our definition of Sed Life

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It's called Sedentary Lifestyle.

I completely agree. I'm still quite fond of that concept.

As for the name... doesn't it depend on whether things actually are getting worse or not?

One set of positive and negative traits I have represents the positive or negative outlook on progress by the leader.

So is this maybe a similar national outlook that's being adopted? A general optimistic view on change and progress or a generally fearful view of it, such as was highlighted in the Croods movie?


And why aren't we all involved in that discussion??? Wanted to keep this rabble out huh?

Optimistic/Pessimistic is not right. Nor is it about the leader. It is the general view of the populace. It does have a lot to do with how elders view their youth.

Speaking of which the group that I was discussing this with were at classes in the U3A, University of the Third Age, ie old fogies.

 

[pepper2000]

The first agricultural revolution (there were several that occurred independently) was about 9500 BC I believe, and so Sedentary Lifestyle should be around 10,000 BC. I am satisfied with how the tree is set up now at the start of the Ancient Era, but there is room for debate as to whether Sedentary Lifestyle leads to Agriculture, or Ag leads to Sed Life, or the two go in parallel.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The first agricultural revolution (there were several that occurred independently) was about 9500 BC I believe, and so Sedentary Lifestyle should be around 10,000 BC. I am satisfied with how the tree is set up now at the start of the Ancient Era, but there is room for debate as to whether Sedentary Lifestyle leads to Agriculture, or Ag leads to Sed Life, or the two go in parallel.

Depends on what you define as agriculture. Purposeful seeding? I mean, it was rather an evolution of ideas but while it would have inspired folks to settle, they couldn't have truly mastered it without settling. Unless they left groups behind to manage fields and the process of Sedentarism was gradual, which is also not entirely unlikely.

At the same point, as soon as people are settling, they are building permanent communities. That is the definition of a city, no? More advanced techniques to planning such a community, or to building more solid buildings are all later steps but it's a city as soon as its a permanent community. So if you're pointing at city building as something to do with more permanent buildings, don't we already have that with the Masonry tech?

 

[pepper2000]

Trying to define a city is a bit like trying to define life, intelligence, civilization, or religion. It is an abstract concept and there will be no unambiguous answer. Some of the characteristics that might be regarded as essential are a unified labor market (which implies some notion of markets and specialization), political organization, and shared infrastructure. The political organization criterion would distinguish a city from a tribe. A group of 100 people, even if they live in permanent buildings, probably operates on the basis of personal relationships, and I would be hard-pressed to call the arrangement a city. A group of 5000 people needs hierarchy and organization, and there is a good chance that they have some notion of currency (not necessarily coinage; early Mesopotamian cities used barley as currency) and writing.

Wikipedia is good here and has covers some of the debate. Again, scholars do not all agree on key points, but I think there is generally a good case for distinguishing a true city from a Neolithic settlement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_city

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Depends on what you define as agriculture. Purposeful seeding? I mean, it was rather an evolution of ideas but while it would have inspired folks to settle, they couldn't have truly mastered it without settling. Unless they left groups behind to manage fields and the process of Sedentarism was gradual, which is also not entirely unlikely.

At the same point, as soon as people are settling, they are building permanent communities. That is the definition of a city, no? More advanced techniques to planning such a community, or to building more solid buildings are all later steps but it's a city as soon as its a permanent community. So if you're pointing at city building as something to do with more permanent buildings, don't we already have that with the Masonry tech?

Purposeful seeding and transplanting of young trees has been done by nomadic and stone age peoples. This works best if your annual migration takes you past the same places at planting and harvest times. Although if you are not planting grains but root crops it is not as time critical and you can set up "permaculture" style rest points on your migration.

On the other hand, if there many and plentiful sources of wild food nearby you can settle down to a permanent settlement.

In my view Sedentary Lifestyle would basically be hamlets and villages. Not all the people in the settlement would necessarily stay there all year. Hunters and Herders for sure. Sheep and cattle would be moved to summer grazing for example. These are organic and probably based on personal connections and obligations.

Forming of Towns and Cities implies some form of overarching planning or direction.

 

[strategyonly]

is there supposed to be something inplace whereas 2 resources arent supposed to be on the same plot?? see pic 1, tar/pasture??

also arent the workboats set to at least go back to the nearest city or at something rather than just sit "inplace" ands do nothing, i had them on AUTO and they just sit??? pic2

 

[raxo2222]

is there supposed to be something inplace whereas 2 resources arent supposed to be on the same plot?? see pic 1, tar/pasture??

Nope, tar pit is just like any feature, just not very frequent.
@Toffer90 can adjust something, so no resources spawn on tarpit.
Or only oil spawns here.

 

[Thunderbrd]

also arent the workboats set to at least go back to the nearest city or at something rather than just sit "inplace" ands do nothing, i had them on AUTO and they just sit??? pic2

Is there perhaps a reason they might believe they can't get back to a port, like barb ships in the way or something like that? Maybe the AI does just let them sit wherever they are if there's nothing more to do. That'd be a bug of course.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

is there supposed to be something inplace whereas 2 resources arent supposed to be on the same plot?? see pic 1, tar/pasture??

also arent the workboats set to at least go back to the nearest city or at something rather than just sit "inplace" ands do nothing, i had them on AUTO and they just sit??? pic2

1) Yes this is a bug that needs fixing.

Tar pit is a feature not a bonus.​

The bonuses should have settings that stop them spawning. I think it is.

           <FeatureBooleans>
               <FeatureBoolean>
                   <FeatureType>FEATURE_TARPIT</FeatureType>
                   <bFeature>0</bFeature>
               </FeatureBoolean>
           </FeatureBooleans>

2) workboats - mine do.

 

[raxo2222]

1) Yes this is a bug that needs fixing.

Tar pit is a feature not a bonus.​

The bonuses should have settings that stop them spawning. I think it is.

           <FeatureBooleans>
               <FeatureBoolean>
                   <FeatureType>FEATURE_TARPIT</FeatureType>
                   <bFeature>0</bFeature>
               </FeatureBoolean>
           </FeatureBooleans>

This is default value, this means removal of it is as good option.
Tar pit feature is unused in BonusInfos - that is no resource should spawn on tile with Tar Pit at all.

Maybe horses spawned later on terrain with Tar Pit?
This could be bug in @Toffer90 C2C_World mapscript too.

Or this one works bit differently and it works like that:

<TerrainBooleans>
                <TerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
                    <bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
                </TerrainBoolean>
                <TerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
                    <bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
                </TerrainBoolean>
            </TerrainBooleans>
            <FeatureBooleans>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FLOOD_PLAINS</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
            </FeatureBooleans>
            <FeatureTerrainBooleans>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
            </FeatureTerrainBooleans>

Spawn this resource on Plains or Grassland no matter what Feature is present.
You can spawn on following tiles, if they have Flood Plains on them: Desert and Plains.
If I changed bFeature to 0 then it would be same as removal of this FeatureBoolean, since its default is 0.