Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Thunderbrd]

Not exactly, but this is also a language issue, like I see.
My main language is Russian, I also speak Hebrew, so English is clearly secondary for me in this context.
So:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon's_Temple is for English.
But:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Первый_Храм is for Russian, and means "First Temple".
It does mention "Solomon's Temple" as an alternative name, but it's not how the Wiki page itself is named - it's named "First Temple" instead.
And the same goes for Hebrew - also "First Temple", not "Solomon's".
So it depends on the language.
And the exact same thing goes for the Wall:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall for English.
But:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стена_Плача for Russian, and means "Wailing Wall".
Yup, it's all in the language - and it's far from being as ethanol as your alcohol may smell, loool.

Translators can always do their thing in other languages and establish the more common terminology. In the case of Russian, First Temple.

 

[Somebody613]

Translators can always do their thing in other languages and establish the more common terminology. In the case of Russian, First Temple.

The initial question was how come there are two Temples of Solomon, though. Just reminding. I guess it would make sense to split them like this:
The religious wonder should be the equivalent of First/Solomon's Temple, while the buildable wonder should be adjusted to fit the Second Temple.
It makes sense both in-game and logically - the Second Temple is a direct result of the First Temple, and that's kinda similar to how the wonders work in-game as well, though not exactly.

 

[Maltazard]

Would it be cool to also allow religious wonders to be built in holy cities? Out of all the great people, prophets are quite challenging to get in C2C for me. I used to hoard religions only to not be able to build all the corresponding religious wonders, which is kind of a waste. Make them quite expensive and all, I do get dozens of engineers to speed up wonders with anyway.

 

[Somebody613]

Would it be cool to also allow religious wonders to be built in holy cities? Out of all the great people, prophets are quite challenging to get in C2C for me. I used to hoard religions only to not be able to build all the corresponding religious wonders, which is kind of a waste. Make them quite expensive and all, I do get dozens of engineers to speed up wonders with anyway.

In the light of the preceding discussion, it's even weirder to require a Prophet in order to insta-build the Solomon's Temple, which was very clearly a massive Wonder Project all along, lol.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The initial question was how come there are two Temples of Solomon, though. Just reminding. I guess it would make sense to split them like this:
The religious wonder should be the equivalent of First/Solomon's Temple, while the buildable wonder should be adjusted to fit the Second Temple.
It makes sense both in-game and logically - the Second Temple is a direct result of the First Temple, and that's kinda similar to how the wonders work in-game as well, though not exactly.

Could make sense to say First Solomon's Temple and Second Solomon's Temple. Would be even more interesting if the First was somehow required to have been destroyed to allow for the Second.

Would it be cool to also allow religious wonders to be built in holy cities? Out of all the great people, prophets are quite challenging to get in C2C for me. I used to hoard religions only to not be able to build all the corresponding religious wonders, which is kind of a waste. Make them quite expensive and all, I do get dozens of engineers to speed up wonders with anyway.

Interesting - that would really allow the option of removing the free prophet from divine prophets too if there was the alternative of simply constructing the Shrine. hmm...

 

[Somebody613]

Second Solomon's Temple.

Precisely why it's a bad idea to call it "the Solomon's Temple" all along.
The Second Temple is very much obviously NOT "a Solomon's Temple", after all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Precisely why it's a bad idea to call it "the Solomon's Temple" all along.
The Second Temple is very much obviously NOT "a Solomon's Temple", after all.

The core shrine of Judaism is classically known as Solomon's Temple, no matter which version it is. And there's a third predicted to be rebuilt here probably soon, which would require the removal of the dome of the rock of course, unless the prophecy simply had something to do with moving the recognized capital of Israel back to Jerusalem as was done a few years back by moving the US embassy there.

 

[pi4t]

The thing is, the "original" second temple wasn't very impressive. It was a downgrade from the first. It lacked the Ark of the Covenant, and several other holy articles that had been in the first temple. The Holy of Holies was separated only by a curtain rather than a wall. Most importantly, God wasn't present in the second temple in the way that he had been (according to the Biblical account) in the first.

This isn't just me bashing the second temple. The Hebrew Bible itself makes that clear in Ezra and Nehemiah. In particular, Ezra 3:12 describes how while everyone else was celebrating the temple being rebuilt, the people who were old enough to remember the original started weeping. While the original second temple is theologically important, it was basically an imperfect attempt to replace something which had been destroyed due to sin. Doesn't really make sense for a wonder. On the other hand, "Herod's" temple was a massive expansion, roughly doubling the area of the temple. The original building was replaced by a much grander structure. It wasn't technically a new temple, because they took care to make sure that rituals could continue during the construction work. But in terms of wonders of the world, it was effectively a new temple.

It's also very likely that if somehow the first temple hadn't been destroyed, Herod would still have built his expansion, and it would still be informally referred to as Herod's temple today. Even if the temple hadn't existed at all, or the second temple hadn't been built, he would probably have done some similar sort of project. The Temple was just a convenient thing for him to use as the basis for his monument he wanted to build.

 

[Somebody613]

The thing is, the "original" second temple wasn't very impressive. It was a downgrade from the first. It lacked the Ark of the Covenant, and several other holy articles that had been in the first temple. The Holy of Holies was separated only by a curtain rather than a wall. Most importantly, God wasn't present in the second temple in the way that he had been (according to the Biblical account) in the first.

This isn't just me bashing the second temple. The Hebrew Bible itself makes that clear in Ezra and Nehemiah. In particular, Ezra 3:12 describes how while everyone else was celebrating the temple being rebuilt, the people who were old enough to remember the original started weeping. While the original second temple is theologically important, it was basically an imperfect attempt to replace something which had been destroyed due to sin. Doesn't really make sense for a wonder. On the other hand, "Herod's" temple was a massive expansion, roughly doubling the area of the temple. The original building was replaced by a much grander structure. It wasn't technically a new temple, because they took care to make sure that rituals could continue during the construction work. But in terms of wonders of the world, it was effectively a new temple.

It's also very likely that if somehow the first temple hadn't been destroyed, Herod would still have built his expansion, and it would still be informally referred to as Herod's temple today. Even if the temple hadn't existed at all, or the second temple hadn't been built, he would probably have done some similar sort of project. The Temple was just a convenient thing for him to use as the basis for his monument he wanted to build.

Yeah, which is why I explicitly mentioned "Civ terms", which aren't exactly the same as "real life terms".
Anyways, I really think that there should be some way to separate "the religious shrine, aka the Jerusalem Temple as a concept", and "the Civ-context Wonder(s), namely the First Temple built by Solomon, and/or the Second Temple's expansion built by Herod".
It's still somewhat complicated, but this way we can make a visible distinction between the "religious function" and the "wonder project", which ARE actually separate concepts.
In fact, if you want it to be "almost most accurate", you could make the "construction wonder" (normal Wonder) requiring the "religious shrine" (prophet Wonder) to reflect precisely that.

 

[Somebody613]

On a very slightly related note:
Can you please change the icon for the Sabbatean culture?
It gives a very misplaced and misguided message and wasn't their symbol in the first place.

 

[raxo2222]

On a very slightly related note:
Can you please change the icon for the Sabbatean culture?
It gives a very misplaced and misguided message and wasn't their symbol in the first place.

Lol that reminds me constant WTFing over cultural stuff in some forum Lets Play - like they kept complaining that cultures are wrongly represented, there are bad connotations, and there are kinda racist things - for example beggar criminal unit for Romani culture.
I think it was linked trough this thread here.

So generally all culture stuff need deep review so it all is shown correctly.

 

[Somebody613]

Lol that reminds me constant WTFing over cultural stuff in some forum Lets Play - like they kept complaining that cultures are wrongly represented, there are bad connotations, and there are kinda racist things - for example beggar criminal unit for Romani culture.
I think it was linked trough this thread here.

So generally all culture stuff need deep review so it all is shown correctly.

Maybe, but this one is basically an indirect insult (and an indirect hate propaganda) towards a certain other group of people.
Especially since it's absolutely wrong as a symbol all along.
Is it that hard to spend an hour (that's more than enough to think of an alternative symbol) on fixing something that upsets people for real, please?
This isn't that far (or maybe worse, not sure) than using Hitler as a representative of the Indian symbol of not-swastika.

 

[raxo2222]

Maybe, but this one is basically an indirect insult (and an indirect hate propaganda) towards a certain other group of people.
Especially since it's absolutely wrong as a symbol all along.
Is it that hard to spend an hour (that's more than enough to think of an alternative symbol) on fixing something that upsets people for real, please?
This isn't that far (or maybe worse, not sure) than using Hitler as a representative of the Indian symbol of not-swastika.

Once you want to fix one culture you should check all other cultures, like not having Beggar for Romani, other crime units like Taliban for Afganistan or something like that.
You also would want to check all descriptions (including graphics like flags), requirements, and what cultures do unlock.

For now culture stuff is in module as its in alpha state - like it was cobbled together.
Also all unit changes over time broke cultural units, since there was no documentation as to how relative stats of units should be - for example Egyptin archers cheaper but weaker, or Babylonian units are stronger but more expensive compared to regular Archer.
Some cultures or their units also may have misplaced tech requirements.

 

[Somebody613]

Once you want to fix one culture you should check all other cultures, like not having Beggar for Romani, other crime units like Tabiban for Afganistan or something like that.
You also would want to check all descriptions (including graphics like flags), requirements, and what cultures do unlock.

1. And why not? Conscript everyone for a day or two - and you'll have (most of) it fixed decently enough, I'd say.
2. Was the Romani-related complaint made by a Romani-related person, or was it just a generic "tolerance" jab? It's still valid, but there is a difference in priority.
3. My complaint is quite personal, to be honest - I kinda belong to the group in question that is insulted by this mistake (obviously NOT Sabbateans, lol).
4. I'd simply be rather grateful, that's all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

1. And why not? Conscript everyone for a day or two - and you'll have (most of) it fixed decently enough, I'd say.
2. Was the Romani-related complaint made by a Romani-related person, or was it just a generic "tolerance" jab? It's still valid, but there is a difference in priority.
3. My complaint is quite personal, to be honest - I kinda belong to the group in question that is insulted by this mistake (obviously NOT Sabbateans, lol).
4. I'd simply be rather grateful, that's all.

It would help if you provided the alternative. I personally have never heard of the culture so cant fix what I know nothing about.

 

[Somebody613]

It would help if you provided the alternative. I personally have never heard of the culture so cant fix what I know nothing about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans
I'm not sure you can even call it a culture, since it's closer to a religious sect (or even a cult) than anything else.
Basically, I'd dispute even for removing it from cultures altogether, not because of its overall (in)significance, but because it's (I guess) not a culture in the C2C sense to begin with.
For one, you don't have Karaites as a culture (or anything) in the game, right?
Well, this one is even less qualified then.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... By providing the alternative, I mean what flag etc... though it does look more like a religious sect than a culture, though I suppose you could say the same about Quakers. That article is using so many Jewish specific phrases I'm rapidly getting lost in trying to follow it and I don't see anything that would stand as a replacement flag, nor any explanation as to what is offensive here. Plus, I'm hoping someone else does something with the info because I'm really not likely to delve into any xml stuff regarding cultures at the moment.

 

[Somebody613]

hmm... By providing the alternative, I mean what flag etc... though it does look more like a religious sect than a culture, though I suppose you could say the same about Quakers. That article is using so many Jewish specific phrases I'm rapidly getting lost in trying to follow it and I don't see anything that would stand as a replacement flag, nor any explanation as to what is offensive here. Plus, I'm hoping someone else does something with the info because I'm really not likely to delve into any xml stuff regarding cultures at the moment.

I'll be more specific.
This is basically a much lesser (in all senses) version of Karaites.
But there isn't anything Karaite in C2C, right (unless I missed it somehow)?
Not as a religion and not as a culture.
Then why add something much less significant and which isn't a distinct culture (especially in C2C terms) to begin with?
Contextually speaking, Sabbateans are pretty much on the level of those weird brainwashing cults that nobody knows **** about, just Jewish and older.
It's not a distinctive culture any more than "tea-only drinkers" would be a culture, just in a religious context.
"Ya coffee heretic, how dare ya not drink the Holy Tea!" - more or less, and quite seriously, just on a more serious topic as a "shell".
Karaites would be a much better culture example, if you want something of that type to be included (not that it needs to).
And as of the insult part, I might explain it in the future, but it became unnecessary in the light that this "not-culture" shouldn't be included to begin with, since it doesn't qualify altogether.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll be more specific.
This is basically a much lesser (in all senses) version of Karaites.
But there isn't anything Karaite in C2C, right (unless I missed it somehow)?
Not as a religion and not as a culture.
Then why add something much less significant and which isn't a distinct culture (especially in C2C terms) to begin with?
Contextually speaking, Sabbateans are pretty much on the level of those weird brainwashing cults that nobody knows horsehocky about, just Jewish and older.
It's not a distinctive culture any more than "tea-only drinkers" would be a culture, just in a religious context.
"Ya coffee heretic, how dare ya not drink the Holy Tea!" - more or less, and quite seriously, just on a more serious topic as a "shell".
Karaites would be a much better culture example, if you want something of that type to be included (not that it needs to).
And as of the insult part, I might explain it in the future, but it became unnecessary in the light that this "not-culture" shouldn't be included to begin with, since it doesn't qualify altogether.

Ok, interesting and I sorta agree with what little understanding I have. Not sure who ever added the culture to begin with nor what they were thinking, likely Sparth? What's their special unit? Anyhow, if someone wants to side with you to remove it...ok. Again, I'm not in a modding position for that at the moment. (Never heard of Karaites either btw.)

 

[Mr Smith]

Anyhow, if someone wants to side with you to remove it...ok.

His reasoning is legit and Sabbatean is misplaced time-wise, anyway, so you may as well get rid of it when time comes to update cultures.