SargontheGreat2
Modder
Well, I'm back! for Version 35. Let me tell you CIV 5 modding is VERY VERY HARD. I've spend 3 weeks trying to realise a civ.
Caveman 2 Cosmos
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
That is easily the biggest flaw of C2C, too much too fast and too little testing. Creators not knowing what they are creating. Wrote it before and wrote it again.
Like you guys were in a terrible hurry and constant hurry never correlates with finesse and quality.
Rodnok
Prince
Is there a way to change civ-colors during mid-game? I play as Japan, I am waging a war with Denmark (early ancient age - researching copper working) and because both civs are red, I can't see who is the owner of border territories - as it can change quickly with IDW enabled. There is no visible border between us, the only way is point to a square with cursor and see the little 'owner:' text.
by the way, Neanderthals should be long time extinct by now... but sometimes they still keep appearing. Maybe some real barbarians (a little stronger) should replace them.
by the way, Neanderthals should be long time extinct by now... but sometimes they still keep appearing. Maybe some real barbarians (a little stronger) should replace them.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Yeah you can change to any color at ANY time you want, you need to go into the BUG (alien) icon and look around there, i believe its on the lower left side of one of the option areas.
The Neand is no longer spawned after PreH Era, if you find one after that, it means that you have a territory that has NOT been even lifted for "fog of war" from anyone.
Rodnok
Prince
Ah, I checked BUG first of course, but I didnt see that 'Player color' option. Worked like a charm, thanks! No more red commies...
It was actually a visible territory, a little strip of no man's land between civs, but I don't have a proof right now. OK, I'll post it to the bugs forum next time I see it.
I think that a greater importance needs to be placed on working tiles. Provided I have the free time, I'd like to review all the improvements and balance them out to make choosing what to build where more strategic for v35. However for this to have an impact numerous building probably need to reduce their excessive bonuses (of all types, mainly food/hammers/gold). Additionally, I would need support for a building tag which requires a given improvement in the city vicinity to be built. (thus increasing the importance of various improvements) if it is not available already.
I can touch on these ideas more in the improvements thread.
In general though I hope that v35 can be mostly dedicated to balance rather than throwing in massive amounts of new stuff. The mod really needs it. (and yes balance might require nerfing some things)
I can touch on these ideas more in the improvements thread.
In general though I hope that v35 can be mostly dedicated to balance rather than throwing in massive amounts of new stuff. The mod really needs it. (and yes balance might require nerfing some things)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Welcome back Sargon! Will be very nice to have ya workin with us again. 
Guys... just remember - where 'balance' is concerned, it's very much because we always have new things coming in that the values of things must often adjust. This is not a bad thing so much as it is an unavoidable thing. Once we start to get to the end of the massive list of projects I'm sure most of us on the team have, we'll begin to be able to act on 'balance' in more meaningful ways. Otherwise we're constantly spending our time trying to tweak the balance and simply finding it to be thrown askew all over again with the next new element.
I'm not saying we shouldn't constantly be making these adjustments as we go and shouldn't be considering fundamental issues that may exist 'under the surface' of the way things have been done that a deep adjustment would fix - just saying we shouldn't expect the mod to be perfectly balanced until we've hit a point where changes are cooling down.
In many ways C2C is like a young planet. It's going to have a LOT of Earthquakes, Lava Flows and Volcanic Eruptions that change and alter the landscape. Once it begins to cool it will take on a more distinct form that can be chiseled down to something more permanent.
Sometimes 'nerfing' can be achieved by strengthening what it is you want to enhance by the nerfing of another element, then adjusting the bigger picture to bring the adjustment back into balance.
Ex: Rather than reducing the value of the buildings (which isn't so much a matter of many buildings being too strong but so many buildings existing that adjust values even at a minimum they add up) we could increase the values of plots and improvements upon them. Then adjust the amount of food needed for growth, increase production costs on each era, and research costs on techs (which can be done with percentage increases on each era or with a full review of base values, either way...)
My point is, we need to give as much consideration as we can to what the core issue is and skin the cat according to the real issue.
Regarding the gold vs commerce thing... I'd like to see someone who feels strongly on the issue put together a quick and dirty 'modmod' that has reviewed all buildings and other sources of wealth and has made an honest attempt to switch the mechanism back to 'vanilla similar' methodology of most gold manipulation being a commerce manipulation so that we can see what the difference really amounts to and how it could be brought back into balance and where THAT system's flaws may lie as well. It's hard to commit to saying, yeah lets make the switch, when we can't experience the difference until its done.
Guys... just remember - where 'balance' is concerned, it's very much because we always have new things coming in that the values of things must often adjust. This is not a bad thing so much as it is an unavoidable thing. Once we start to get to the end of the massive list of projects I'm sure most of us on the team have, we'll begin to be able to act on 'balance' in more meaningful ways. Otherwise we're constantly spending our time trying to tweak the balance and simply finding it to be thrown askew all over again with the next new element.
I'm not saying we shouldn't constantly be making these adjustments as we go and shouldn't be considering fundamental issues that may exist 'under the surface' of the way things have been done that a deep adjustment would fix - just saying we shouldn't expect the mod to be perfectly balanced until we've hit a point where changes are cooling down.
In many ways C2C is like a young planet. It's going to have a LOT of Earthquakes, Lava Flows and Volcanic Eruptions that change and alter the landscape. Once it begins to cool it will take on a more distinct form that can be chiseled down to something more permanent.
Sometimes 'nerfing' can be achieved by strengthening what it is you want to enhance by the nerfing of another element, then adjusting the bigger picture to bring the adjustment back into balance.
Ex: Rather than reducing the value of the buildings (which isn't so much a matter of many buildings being too strong but so many buildings existing that adjust values even at a minimum they add up) we could increase the values of plots and improvements upon them. Then adjust the amount of food needed for growth, increase production costs on each era, and research costs on techs (which can be done with percentage increases on each era or with a full review of base values, either way...)
My point is, we need to give as much consideration as we can to what the core issue is and skin the cat according to the real issue.
Regarding the gold vs commerce thing... I'd like to see someone who feels strongly on the issue put together a quick and dirty 'modmod' that has reviewed all buildings and other sources of wealth and has made an honest attempt to switch the mechanism back to 'vanilla similar' methodology of most gold manipulation being a commerce manipulation so that we can see what the difference really amounts to and how it could be brought back into balance and where THAT system's flaws may lie as well. It's hard to commit to saying, yeah lets make the switch, when we can't experience the difference until its done.
You can do it with a construct condition. Has tag with GOM_IMPROVEMENT checks the city vicinity for an improvement. You could also count with IntegrateSum to have some buildings only constructable if there are more than X of that improvement type in city vicinity.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
We have already discussed and agreed to try a variation and have many buildings produce a % of food rather than an amount of food. This seems to be one simple way to adjust and balance things.
In the future it may be nice to have a particular building only produce an increase based on a particular improvement type but it may not be necessary for balance.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Different subject: How do you get the title of the soundtrack to change without doing any audio file changes, i put a MP3 in there but no sound??
It will only change once you run the game, start a new game or load one. When you restart the game now, the music should have changed.
Um you are aware that this line of thought contributes to one of the major runaway problems with C2C right? People accumulated too much gold, but rather than nerf the gold makers you upped maintenance costs. People made too much science but rather than nerf the science provides you increase research costs. Too much food so you decide to increase the food cost per population level. What's next requiring 4 food per population instead of 3, Three was already 1 above vanilla BtS. Ditto for all the other yield types. It is at the point where it has gotten so bad that you have gold and science integer overflow errors.... keep doing this over and over again like you have and this problem is going to get worse and worse. You already are now talking about upping the building costs again, but there is still much talk about the AI seeing these values as too high to build turn wise and thus never building them.
You also realize that at present in the long term, a 1% food bonus is more valuable than a +1 Food. Efficient city will have a +1% that far more valuable than +1F, unless plan on getting rid of ALL the various +1F building provides out there. In the present state you don't reduce food yield by converting a +1F into a +1%F, you make it worse.
As for buildings requiring an improvement in CV, you're looking at it from the wrong side. The reason I am proposing to make some buildings require improvements is to make those improvements have meaning and purpose so that players will actually want to build them, rather than using almost nothing but mines, farms and resource enabling improvements. So for 'balance' it was really to balance improvements more than buildings.
Caveat to all the above, the last long term games I have played were from v29. So if the above balance has changed in v30 to 33...that opinion could be lessened, I'll find out after being able to play some long term v34 games.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
And how has that become problematic?
We were just observing yesterday how NOT approaching the problem this way in RoM was possibly a major mistake.
And it seems to have worked pretty well. But more I think that adjusting the base needed food for growth would be in order among other possible adjustments. I had to adjust the trade formulas this cycle to keep trade from creating more food per population than the population consumed but was able to do so without increasing the food needed per pop. But if we did increase the food each pop consumes then we'd be enabled to create a larger gradient scale where plots and their improvements are concerned wouldn't we? This would in fact accomplish what you're after which is for plots to take on more meaning.
There are ways to repair integer overflows. We've used some in the past and just need to make sure we identify when they actually take place and fix those spots as well.
AI's evaluate the amount of turns not the build cost itself so it's all about a balancing act. At the moment I think build costs should NOT be increased as they're a touch to high in relationship to the research rate imo.
All I'm trying to really say is that sometimes nerfing is appropriate and sometimes adjustments to the focal points and rates surrounding the issue are more appropriate. In reality, it's more about the ultimate effect you're wanting to achieve.
For example, you'd reduce the amount of a yield being produced by a building to bring things more into balance only to realize that it won't work because the balance issue stems from a number of +1 base buildings being available instead. You might find one or two that could be reduced but to do so would be to make them lackluster and their current charm is that they ARE superior build choices when available which challenges the player to learn this and apply this as a priority (For example, I LOVE the hidden strong value of the Child Labor building in the early game - and the ultimate strategy of gunning for not only the Stone Tools Workshop but all the techs that enhance the building! Nerfing these things would destroy their enjoyability.)
So in such a case where it may not be the power of the building causing imbalance really just the overall cumulative totals being derived, then it may be smart to consider coming at it not from the ground up (adjusting all the individual minor factors) but from the top down (adjusting the large scale results meters.)
Now, sometimes you might find that something IS just too dang powerful - I personally think that perhaps the Stone Tools Workshop should be limited only to the capital for example - then nerfing or alternative solutions to limiting the impact from that element such as what I just suggested for the Workshop becomes the more appropriate solution.
Just saying we can't just think towards balance from one angle is all.
True... and what happens when you get a full total of +300% food in a city? You then have no choice but to increase the food each population consumes or reverse the whole thinking that led up to the % food modifier being so high - this was much like the trade food income problem.
I've long been promising to give us some tags for enabling buildings to improve the X yield value of Y Improvement when Y Improvement is on a plot being worked by the city. Not a terribly easy request but it should make things more interesting and enable more tools with which to balance things out back towards more emphasis on plots. I'll put it on a short list for this cycle.
Some thinking along these lines could be cool. Don't we have a tag for that already so that it CAN be done without further dll work?
Ah... we've swung through a number of balance phases since then - it'll probably be quite different now though I'll leave it up to you to determine if you think it's improved or diminished. Probably depends on the era. The main thing is the earliest techs seem to me like they come in way too fast. But perhaps only the first two. And I feel education might need to be a little more difficult to keep on top of but I might feel differently once cities hit that runaway growth phase they usually do in the later game - still evaluating balance in play myself here.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well there are a lot of ways that the game provides "gold sinks". Such as building health or science buildings. Also there are crimes and such that can take away gold. However there are some people who just avoid building the buildings that give -gold and totally eliminate crime. then on top of that have a ton of wonders that give a butt load of gold benefits because they play with unlimited wonders and can build them all in one city.
The last point I think is the most game breaking problem. How many of you play with unlimited wonders on and have too much gold? Also how many of you have unlimited wonders turned off and have too much gold?
The last point I think is the most game breaking problem. How many of you play with unlimited wonders on and have too much gold? Also how many of you have unlimited wonders turned off and have too much gold?
Arkenor
Warlord
I play with unlimited wonders on. C2C is far too aggravating without it. I don't think that's the primary cause of the gold abundance though. The % gold bonuses from wonders are additive, after all, so it doesn't really matter which major city you put it in.
The main cause is the zillion +gold buildings. Trade probably has a part to play too, given how many trade routes and trade bonuses you can score.
I've often played with unlimited wonders on. Though I self limit to a degree, by only building the correct wonders in my correct specialist cities.
However, I think it is still telling that I can get so far ahead so fast, that I beat the AI to nearly all wonders. (on deity)
However, I think it is still telling that I can get so far ahead so fast, that I beat the AI to nearly all wonders. (on deity)
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
What speed are you playing on, I play on Marathon and everything there works GREAT. except the dates are off until you hit Modern, but no that much.
I can hardly get enough money to keep things afloat there. Alot of times i am in the YELLOW
Arkenor
Warlord
Snail. And I'm not complaining about the money situation myself. It all gets spent helping my newer cities catch up. Just saying I don't think Unlimited Wonders is the cause.
My main issues at the moment is that compared with when I was playing this time last year, my machine no longer seems able to cope. Not sure whether it's all the additional art, or some other change, but I run out of memory/crash constantly once we get into the Classical period. I think I'll need to go down a map size or two.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Having each population consume 3 food was one of the brilliant ideas of RoM. Proper thinking outside the box there.
The point of converting to % was to get your city to work the land. Currently most of your population are specialists or miners/foresters even in the classic era! However if you say it is only going to make things worse I wont bother trying it.
The point of converting to % was to get your city to work the land. Currently most of your population are specialists or miners/foresters even in the classic era! However if you say it is only going to make things worse I wont bother trying it.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
MY opinion: When i was in the Non-commissioned Officers Advanced Training Classes, our class had a Quote: K.I.S.S (Keep it Simple Stupid).
I only play with less than 9 civs, and have a HARD time on Marathon. On a Huge map, but if you like longer PreH Era than go to Giant , but thats really too much. IMPO
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