Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am playing with v33 and ran into what may be a game stopper. I moved an army up to an enemy city, bombarded it down to zero defenses and then was told I could not assault it because it was within a city's radius. What is going on?

Insufficient information to comment on. Do you have a save showing this situation? If so post it (in a compressed form) in the bug thread with details of what you are trying to do so that we can see if it still happens with the current pre-release. If it does we can then track down and fix it.

 

[solops]

Done.

 

[rwglaub]

I"ve had that happen. I think you need to take out some of the outer fortifications.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So it is a ZoC problem?

 

[solops]

So it is a ZoC problem?

Not sure, but it seems like it.

 

[Sparth]

Can someone tell me why in C2C slider / ratio is set up to 3:1 or even 4:1? I checked in other mods and vanilla and they have 1:1 ratio and slider is much useful to manage cash in your empire. Im playing in Marathon speed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can someone tell me why in C2C slider / ratio is set up to 3:1 or even 4:1? I checked in other mods and vanilla and they have 1:1 ratio and slider is much useful to manage cash in your empire. Im playing in Marathon speed.

hmm... it SHOULD be a 1:1 ratio BUT modifiers to Gold% or Research % will obviously play differently and I THINK that's what's giving the impression that the slider is set to such a 3-1 ratio. If the ratio IS somehow different, not only would I be surprised given that I've glanced over the code on that more than once and not taken notice but I'd also object to such processing just as you have. Wouldn't be correct for the game I don't think.

 

[Sparth]

Look at the screenshots. In one case we have 368 and 122 and when I lower researche slider its 363 and 123
Its 5:1 ratio.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Oftentimes changing the slider will reassign specialists as well... are you sure that's not what's taking place here? Check on a very young game to see a less complex ratio measurement.

 

[Sparth]

Oftentimes changing the slider will reassign specialists as well... are you sure that's not what's taking place here? Check on a very young game to see a less complex ratio measurement.

Nopt its not that.
I checked it twice:
- in turn 1
- in turn 63

Always is ratio between 3:1 to 4:1.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It should be a 5% change to both for each click on the slider. The number changes in both will only be equal if your values are the same at 100%.

 

[Sparth]

It should be a 5% change to both for each click on the slider. The number changes in both will only be equal if your values are the same at 100%.

But its not 5%
Look at screenshots from this post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13076166&postcount=8531

Easy to check. Just start new game (any speed) and test it.

 

[God-Emperor]

But its not 5%
Look at screenshots from this post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13076166&postcount=8531

Easy to check. Just start new game (any speed) and test it.

It does not look like there is anything hugely wrong. The vast majority of your gold is coming directly from buildings and is not affected by the slider. You can see it in the screen shots where it is the first line, "Taxes", in the second column: at 5% you are getting 2 gold from the slider and at 10% you are getting 5 (well, the display is integers but there are fractions involved which is why the total is not exact if you add up the numbers, so they are "2-ish" and "5-ish"). So the gold goes up by about 3. (Complicated by how the "civics and events" line also changes.)

The research drops from 368 to 363 which is a change of about 5 (and also most of it is also coming from buildings). Since the total commerce is only 57 a shift of 5% is 0.05 * 57 = 2.85 before any modifiers are applied. At this stage of the game you apparently have a larger percentage modifier on research from buildings and civics than you do for gold - the Elder Council buildings may still be in effect and it gives a 25% research bonus to the city it is in, which could be higher than your total gold modifier all by itself (since most of the gold modifiers from buildings before banks are things like 1 or 2 percent for each of a few resources). Based on the shift it looks like your gold modifier is around 5% since 3/2.85 = 1.0526. The research modifier works out to perhaps a much larger 75% since 5/2.85 = 1.754. Although both that 3 and that 5 are approximate.

 

[Faustmouse]

The fact that we have alsmost no building that produce makes the sliders basically obsolete...

 

[Sparth]

I know that slider is obsolete now in C2C but I think its wrong.
I just want to ask why in C2C slider ratio is 3:1 and in Vanilla and other mods its 1:1? This decision dont make slider less obsolete.

And about building with moddifiers: at start of the game (1st turn) ratio is the same.

 

[Sparth]

The fact that we have alsmost no building that produce makes the sliders basically obsolete...

Its any problem to change some buidlings from to ?

 

[Arkenor]

It's not obsolete at all. You still get from tiles.

 

[Thunderbrd]

God Emperor laid it out quite well. It's not a ratio difference. What it IS is that gold is not commerce which is a major difference here from Vanilla (and thus many other mods as well.)

We inherited this from AND and I think AND inherited it from RoM. We continued the trend here.

Sliders only affect a relatively small percentage of the overall total of gold/research/culture and espionage. The degree to which our commences are calculated from non-YIELD Commerce sources is fairly extreme, yes. Far moreso than you'd find in most mods.

It does have the effect of making the slider have less impact than you'd expect it to. Doesn't make it obsolete but it does make it frustrating how little the overall commerce totals become adjusted.

I've long personally debated with myself as to whether this is really a design flaw or not. When I started playing RoM/AND I felt the same way about the split between gold and commerce (original vanilla there is not an obvious difference - all gold income IS setup as commerce which can THEN be split between the commerce types including gold itself.) There are gold modifiers in vanilla such as the +50% from Banks but usually the flat +/- values affect commerce which then in turn affect any one of the Commerces depending on the slider and once commerce division is determined by the slider, the percentage modifiers to each commerce in the city will adjust the final total. The more we move base yield_commerce pluses and negatives over to commerce_gold pluses and negatives, the less power we give the slider.

I'm still unsure if making most buildings manipulate only the 4 commerces and never the yield commerce is a wise move or not.

The problem I have with this whole current mechanism is that it's kinda hard to tell what one means over the other in design terms. What gold can't a nation spend on other things? What does the difference actually mean when considering a source of plus or negative to base commerce as opposed to gold? We've never really fully defined this from a real world differing perspective and the take in these mods does differ from the vanilla design philosophy - which was to say the only difference is when you are working with gold/currency AS a gold/currency rather than the potential for spending that commerce represents. Thus if you take in commerce it's basically gold but it's more than that - it's the nation's potential that can be refocused and redirected towards different projects. But if you have gold that's lost the capacity to be potential and is now committed so that the potential is now invested into currency.

In many ways this makes our methods make sense. The buildings that impact Gold itself generally can easily be seen to not bring in potential for the government so much as specifically taxed currency (or a cost of such.) But then it begs the question: What gold/currency value cannot be re-absorbed into the system such that it may become raw potential again? Or rather... how can it be done? Are there buildings we could create or re-purpose in our mod that would take gold and convert it back to Commerce? Could that be one of the purposes of some administrative buildings or bureaucratic entities (like an Accountant specialist)? Would a -1 gold, +1 commerce not be an interesting building type or effect we haven't explored?

 

[Sparth]

Ok I dont know mechanics which rule and in game but I check RoM:AND (ver. 1.75) and ratio is 1:1

Look at screenshots.

C2C has fundamental gameplay problems, which overdose of gold is IMO biggest one.
Fixing slider is one of the steps to fix the gold problem.

 

[Yudishtira]

In many ways this makes our methods make sense.

No I'm afraid it really doesn't make sense. Revenue has to be spendable on anything, ie. including but not limited to what your gold balance can be spent on, and that means it has to be commerce.