Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Tajo]

In this new game I finally got a religion Andeism. And he Anarchy period to convert was 12 turns! For a mid Ancient era Religion? On a Long GS game? That's Horrible. What is it like for an Eternity game? 60 turns of Anarchy? Holy Cow!

Perhaps a bit too much but it is good reminder that change comes with the pain and it is good to remember that once the anarchy is over, the benefits of the change keep cumulating turn after turn so the pain is brief but the benefits more or less permanent.

Also, if someone plays ridiculously long games, long anarchy times should come with the territory.

 

[raxo2222]

This indeed applies only if their government is selling lies and tyranny to them.

Civics are perfectly neutral morally in C2C. There is no corruption, incompetence, greed and apathy here.
You can have fully automated, socially progressive space green social democracy and not care about properties letting your cities rot.
You can have totalitarian theocratic and corporate government and still care about properties and build all buildings.

Here civics are just what you prioritize.

 

[raxo2222]

Perhaps a bit too much but it is good reminder that change comes with the pain and it is good to remember that once the anarchy is over, the benefits of the change keep cumulating turn after turn so the pain is brief but the benefits more or less permanent.

Also, if someone plays ridiculously long games, long anarchy times should come with the territory.

Someone went way overboard with anticlerical trait with its 6X longer anarchy from religious civic, I adjusted that (500 to 100).

 

[Tajo]

Civics are perfectly neutral morally in C2C. There is no corruption, incompetence, greed and apathy here.
You can have fully automated, socially progressive space green social democracy and not care about properties letting your cities rot.
You can have totalitarian theocratic and corporate government and still care about properties and build all buildings.

Here civics is just what you prioritize.

Sure but I meant real life since there is no concept of intelligence in the game. There is education but education of the state as a concept does not equal with individual intelligence.

 

[Yudishtira]

This indeed applies only if their government is selling lies and tyranny to them.

Smarter people aren't necessarily looking for the truth, and they aren't necessarily altruistic. They will 'buy' the system that best suits them, from whoever is selling it. Often they will come up with a system themselves which they regard as 'the best' (or at least elements of a system different to the 'status quo'), in which case they will be dissatisfied with any other system being foisted upon them.

 

[Tajo]

Someone went way overboard with anticlerical trait with its 6X longer anarchy from religious civic, I adjusted that (500 to 100).

Oops, a wild goose on the loose then. Good that you catched it.

 

[Tajo]

Smarter people aren't necessarily looking for the truth, and they aren't necessarily altruistic. They will 'buy' the system that best suits them, from whoever is selling it. Often they will come up with a system themselves which they regard as 'the best' (or at least elements of a system different to the 'status quo'), in which case they will be dissatisfied with any other system being foisted upon them.

Not necessarily no but if they really are smart, they know and admit that false systems will eventually fall upon their offspring. But you are right, intelligent person is not necessary a smart one and people that tend to pursue short term gain at the expense of future seldom are.

 

[raxo2222]

Sure but I meant real life since there is no concept of intelligence in the game. There is education but education of the state as a concept does not equal with individual intelligence.

I think @Thunderbrd defined education as technological competence of whole city - that is how good citizens as a whole not individuals are at cutting edge tech.
I think if everyone is technologically competent, then 10 people has 10 ways to make something work.
That is he went that route.

I think looking this way most of first world cities have education level somewhere between Industrial - Information era level of tech competence.
Even if your city has Information level property individuals may have anti-Information level of education - that is being on negative end of scale.

Internet definitely helped increase variation of individuals education level.

Similar thing is with crimes and diseases: Not having those autobuildings just means crimes and diseases don't do noticeable disruption in city.
Disruption from properties gets relatively weaker as you get more buildings - City with all buildings in Nanotech era won't notice much wrong if all properties are at their worst, and city in Classical era could collapse from properties, even if they aren't at their worst.

Traits and civics also can get drowned out easily by buildings.

 

[JosEPh_II]

See what I mean?

You are confusing Smart with ideology differences or outright stubbornness. Smart overcomes both. Because smart gathers knowledge and then uses that knowledge to gain wisdom. Wisdom allows for constructive dialogue that overcomes the differences for the greater good.

So again Really?

 

[JosEPh_II]

LS612 also made his own optional trait set, Focused Traits, his attempt to simplify the trait system as a whole

Unfortunately the player does not know this set of traits even exists anymore (unless they are Log long time C2C players and Know where they have been hidden). You have to place his Module Folder into the active Module to even get to use them.

I used to use them a lot. But it got tiresome every time a new version of C2C thru the SVN came out to reactivate the Module if I just deleted the Assets folder and replaced it with the New SVN Assets folder. (Easier to do that than digging into the Assets Folder to replace individual files or folders.)

 

[raxo2222]

Unfortunately the player does not know this set of traits even exists anymore (unless they are Log long time C2C players and Know where they have been hidden). You have to place his Module Folder into the active Module to even get to use them.

I used to use them a lot. But it got tiresome every time a new version of C2C thru the SVN came out to reactivate the Module if I just deleted the Assets folder and replaced it with the New SVN Assets folder. (Easier to do that than digging into the Assets Folder to replace individual files or folders.)

You hid those back in December 2016 by making Focused Traits (right under Thunderbird's Complex Traits) hidden in game options.
You don't have to move this module or anything, just unhide option in optioninfos.

Those are in Modules folder (ls612) enabled, just that option to activate those is disabled (CIV4GameOptionInfos.xml):

        <GameOptionInfo>
            <Type>GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS</Type> (game name is Focused Traits here)
            <Description>TXT_KEY_GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS</Description>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS_HELP</Help>
            <bDefault>0</bDefault>
            <bVisible>0</bVisible>
        </GameOptionInfo>

Since its option it doesn't do anything unless checked on game setup.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This indeed applies only if their government is selling lies and tyranny to them.

Disagree for a few reasons. 1, governments are always selling lies to smooth over things for those who aren't getting their ways because no groups always get everything they want out of any deal that's made for all. In a sense, this is not a counteraction to your point. 2, Due to differences in insights and knowledge, no matter how well educated 2 people are, they will disagree on fundamental points, all the stronger because they are so well informed that they have such strong beliefs on the bases of their own logic. Leaders in all forms of Government are all highly educated people and know what they are talking about and most want the best possible system for all and yet still value slightly different things and different results and thus, BECAUSE of their strong beliefs founded on deep wisdoms, they clash all the harder.

I guess there is no need to adjust traits in module, since Focused Traits option is disabled since forever.

I wouldn't advise adjusting them either way because they were setup by a modder with a strong opinion and were isolated into an option for the reason that they were a representation of those polarizing opinions. I would not want to see anyone tamper with what he wanted them to be as I would feel that would be unfair if it were done to my own option set down the road if I ever fell out of modding. Unfortunately for Slick, though he got to design the core set, being core, it's open to more free editing.

Btw, any idea when V39 will be out?

No but I can say we're more engaged in this version's cycle now as a team than we have been in a while so it's getting there.

Someone went way overboard with anticlerical trait with its 6X longer anarchy from religious civic, I adjusted that (500 to 100).

Well, keep in mind that the player with this trait is expected to pick one religion and stick to it, or really be against having a declared state religion at all.

I think @Thunderbrd defined education as technological competence of whole city - that is how good citizens as a whole not individuals are at cutting edge tech.
I think if everyone is technologically competent, then 10 people has 10 ways to make something work.
That is he went that route.

Yes. Well put.

Smart overcomes both.

No... Smart enhances both. Because you have more cause to believe in your logical conclusions being superior to those of others.

Because smart gathers knowledge and then uses that knowledge to gain wisdom. Wisdom allows for constructive dialogue that overcomes the differences for the greater good.

Knowledge does not equate to wisdom at all. Wisdom is earned within and has nothing to do with how much you know or understand. Some of the dumbest are the wisest and some of the most intelligent are the least wise. In fact, knowledge often creates an erosion of humility, which is the core element in wisdom and cooperative capacity.

All Education is indicating is how well the common person understands the technological achievements of the day, and everything man knows up to that point. The more you know, the less willing you are to accept conclusions that ignore the points of knowledge you have obtained or discounts your conclusions, the more faith you have in your own thoughts, the stronger your convictions, and as a result, the less capable of passively accepting acting on what you believe is wrong thinking. Yes, your negotiation skills might be stronger as a result of greater knowledge in that particular area, the science of interaction so to speak, but when everybody has an opinion, it's still much more difficult than when most people feel they don't have enough data to weigh in with an opinion.

Then complicating the situation, generations are taught different things entirely as what is considered a proper education will change with time, leading to vast disagreements in direction on things from a generational perspective, something the US is currently struggling with tremendously. The most highly educated are the ones that disagree the strongest, depending on what they were conditioned to believe at the time of their education.

Unfortunately the player does not know this set of traits even exists anymore (unless they are Log long time C2C players and Know where they have been hidden). You have to place his Module Folder into the active Module to even get to use them.

I used to use them a lot. But it got tiresome every time a new version of C2C thru the SVN came out to reactivate the Module if I just deleted the Assets folder and replaced it with the New SVN Assets folder. (Easier to do that than digging into the Assets Folder to replace individual files or folders.)

If it wasn't for so many people complaining that trait options were too numerous and complicated, I'd still be all for just leaving this on and leaving the option available. It's designed to be fully compatible while being available for play so I have no problem with it being there. I just wish that folks didn't get so easily confused by its presence.

 

[raxo2222]

Well, keep in mind that the player with this trait is expected to pick one religion and stick to it, or really be against having a declared state religion at all.

If it wasn't for so many people complaining that trait options were too numerous and complicated, I'd still be all for just leaving this on and leaving the option available. It's designed to be fully compatible while being available for play so I have no problem with it being there. I just wish that folks didn't get so easily confused by its presence.

I guess some people didn't knew, that Anticlerical trait just did that, same with AI.

As for Focused Traits set this option was hidden since December 2016, and players have to manually enable it to choose it on game setup.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I guess some people didn't knew, that Anticlerical trait just did that, same with AI.

The AI tends to work ok with it because it already fails to consider swapping to other religions for many reasons there are to do so and usually settles contently on one anyhow. Not saying it cannot or should not be further refined.

In Joseph's case, he selected a random leader and got one that embraces anarchy. Whether the setting was too severe is debate worthy. I think it is a bit so but it does achieve its objective for those who took the time to understand the traits they have. I'm not saying it shouldn't perhaps be toned down a little but if you are doing so, you may want to consider the reasoning for the setting was not haphazard or accidental.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You hid those back in December 2016 by making Focused Traits (right under Thunderbird's Complex Traits) hidden in game options.

I did that because SO wanted (at that time) for them to be eliminated from the Mod. I felt they should be preserved.

And I have No Problem with that Option being made Visible and usable again. I would use them again if that was the case.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The AI tends to work ok with it because it already fails to consider swapping to other religions for many reasons there are to do so and usually settles contently on one anyhow. Not saying it cannot or should not be further refined.

In Joseph's case, he selected a random leader and got one that embraces anarchy. Whether the setting was too severe is debate worthy. I think it is a bit so but it does achieve its objective for those who took the time to understand the traits they have. I'm not saying it shouldn't perhaps be toned down a little but if you are doing so, you may want to consider the reasoning for the setting was not haphazard or accidental.

While I can agree with much of what is stated here. The problem becomes exaggerated for those that play with Random Leaders And are pushed into playing the Longer GS because of our Recommendations that that is what they Must play to enjoy the Mod. And as Wishbone Ash said, " That's the Rub". This particular Trait (and several others as well) does not play well for any player that wants to Play Marathon or any GS longer than it. Raxxo has addressed this now on This Trait. So new players won't get by it when it strikes them at a bad time.

Now on the other hand, every Deity and NM Deity Player should be Handcuffed into having to Have to play with this Negative Trait.

​

 

[Thunderbrd]

Now on the other hand, every Deity and NM Deity Player should be Handcuffed into having to Have to play with this Negative Trait.

It IS a bit more severe than other negative traits I think. Again, an issue with balance of power between traits.

 

[Tajo]

Disagree for a few reasons. 1, governments are always selling lies to smooth over things for those who aren't getting their ways because no groups always get everything they want out of any deal that's made for all

Pretty much yeah, smart ones don't swallow the lies. My point exactly.

n a sense, this is not a counteraction to your point. 2, Due to differences in insights and knowledge, no matter how well educated 2 people are, they will disagree on fundamental points, all the stronger because they are so well informed that they have such strong beliefs on the bases of their own logic.

If their logic is sound and smart, they stand on the same shore and have no reason to hold different beliefs. Only fools quarrel over a belief, there is no logic or smartness in such dopery.

Leaders in all forms of Government are all highly educated people and know what they are talking about and most want the best possible system for all and yet still value slightly different things and different results and thus, BECAUSE of their strong beliefs founded on deep wisdoms, they clash all the harder.

Actually, these "leaders" are just paid actors of those who own pretty much everything. Politics is show business for ugly people, both outside and definitely from within. Voting is bullfeathers, elections a charade and democracy just a bad joke.

 

[Yudishtira]

Only fools quarrel over a belief, there is no logic or smartness in such dopery.

And yet here we are, 'quarrelling' about beliefs. Either you're selling yourself short, or...

All philosophical disagreements are over beliefs, and they attract mostly better educated, more thoughtful, one might almost say "smarter" people.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Knowledge does not equate to wisdom at all.

Reread what I said. I did not say knowledge = wisdom. And you left out the Context of this disacussion of who was using knowledge to Gain wisdom. You went off on a tangent....again.