Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Thunderbrd]

Reread what I said. I did not say knowledge = wisdom. And you left out the Context of this disacussion of who was using knowledge to Gain wisdom. You went off on a tangent....again.

It wasn't a tangent. It was a logical argument. It might not have directly responded to what you were trying to say but I found what you were saying to have little bearing on the core matter which is whether higher education levels would increase anarchy times. Education does not make one smart, nor does being smart make one a leader, nor does not being smart keep one from the discussions taking place on national direction. What is or isn't smart is also a matter of debate. Smart has nothing to do with the effect of education on the public nor is it measured in any case here. History proves that the more the people know, the less agreeable they are. People revolt against governments when they see what's actually happening. People do not easily settle on new ways of governing if they feel they have cause to believe in their opinions.

Pretty much yeah, smart ones don't swallow the lies. My point exactly.

So if they aren't swallowing those lies, they'll keep the debate open longer, protest harder, and be a lot more resistant to settling on a consensus as to how to govern in the future, thus anarchy times go on for longer periods during shifts in policy.

If their logic is sound and smart, they stand on the same shore and have no reason to hold different beliefs. Only fools quarrel over a belief, there is no logic or smartness in such dopery.

Sound logic can often lead to opposing conclusions. In fact, it almost always does. I think Joseph's logic is sound. I disagree with the end conclusion because I think it overlooks a few details, where he feels I'm overlooking some. What it boils down to is that our perception of the cause and effect differs and we're looking at things from different angles and furthermore, we have more fundamental disagreements on what appealing design is. He's arguing to keep a positive element uncorrupted by negative aspects whereas that's a core value I have in design. Under the surface of what we're really discussing, it's more about the game experience in the end. He'd rather not be bitten by what is otherwise a good thing and I'd rather you might want to strategically consider reducing your education in the capital for a bit if you are planning a major set of civics changes. I think this is more about gameplay and less about our arguments though we are using these arguments as a way to validate our cases for the way design is established. Sound logic does not mean agreement on the values that such logic is constructed upon.

Actually, these "leaders" are just paid actors of those who own pretty much everything. Politics is show business for ugly people, both outside and definitely from within. Voting is bullfeathers, elections a charade and democracy just a bad joke.

While this may be true and who knows to what actual degree it is, it is not the perspective that the game embraces, and if it did, it doesn't minimize the value of the suspension of disbelief that such theater must maintain for the public who observes the process, so one would never know the difference whether it be real or illusion. A more educated public will be in greater disagreement with itself and thus would demand more argument and discussion before accepting and moving forward in any agreeable manner. Look at the current shutdown, for example. You don't think this would be going on for so long if most people in America were completely without a sense of personal knowledge and a resulting opinion do you?

 

[tmv]

Look at the current shutdown, for example.

Let me point out that you just mentioned the current shutdown as evidence for a high level of intelligence. I ... really ... didn't think you would do that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Let me point out that you just mentioned the current shutdown as evidence for a high level of intelligence. I ... really ... didn't think you would do that.

It's a perfect example. It's happening because there are opposing logical viewpoints that are extremely strong due to the educated conditioning of those viewpoints. If there weren't such highly educated people involved in this clash, the will to bend on either side would have been more prevalent.

The main thing here is that both sides have very different personal motives. The GOP understand that if they continue to allow a stream of southern immigrants to come through asking for asylum, it will be hard to turn them down and as a result they will end up weakening their hold on power since most southern immigrants will vote for Democrats due to the Dems consistently doing all they can to appeal to lower class and supporting the expansion of racial diversity in seats of power, while the GOP generally stand more for the status quo in that regard and appeal more to the white majority base.

Therefore, LOGIC dictates that the GOP strongly want to create as much difficulty for immigration as they can and they find a great many arguments to appeal to their voters to earn their support for any policy that will achieve this, namely in this case budgeting for a southern border wall. Many of their people, educated as they are, understand that this is the real issue at hand and support that wall.

For the very same reasons, the Dems stoutly refuse to allow it to happen, not JUST because it runs counter to their own growth of political power, but because they feel a deep disagreement in regards to fundamental value differences. Rather than fearing a loss of racial superiority, they believe that America is not weakened by racial diversity and divided by language barriers, but are strengthened by welcoming in all points of view into our process. They believe more open borders is a moral position, particularly when we have a prosperous nation, that those who wish to come here do so to find those opportunities they lack where they come from, and that all should have the right to seek that and be included in it.

Just as logically, the GOP see these immigrants as 'invaders' who wish to take (share in) our prosperity, thus spreading that wealth thinner still. Both are logical conclusions - both coming at this from opposite values.

I think we ALL know that it doesn't matter if the wall works to create an ROI or not, it's a matter of creating a message to those who would come here: "We only want you if you add measurable value and wealth to the company(country), and are thus likely to be a Republican capitalist. If you don't... if you simply seek to share in American wealth, do not come. If you cannot buy the ticket, you cannot take the ride."

If it wasn't so obvious that this is a serious division in values this issue represents, obvious because those on both sides are well educated, then the negotiability of this matter would be much easier and the value of getting the government back up and functioning to eliminate the pain of the conflict would be 'felt' as less important to endure. Anarchy would have been put to rest much faster than it will be.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I think we ALL know that it doesn't matter if the wall works to create an ROI or not, it's a matter of creating a message to those who would come here: "We only want you if you add measurable value and wealth to the company(country), and are thus likely to be a Republican capitalist. If you don't... if you simply seek to share in American wealth, do not come. If you cannot buy the ticket, you cannot take the ride."

What does this have to do with anarchy? All you did was expose your political leanings. And perpetuate a falsehood.

I'm done with this "discussion" that is no longer a discussion.

 

[Toffer90]

What does this have to do with anarchy? All you did was expose your political leanings.

If I hadn't known about TB's democratic leaning beforehand, I would not have been able to read out any political leaning from what he posted above, it seemed quite neutrally written to me.

The subjects of the government are more likely to be aware of, and to have an opinion about, what the government does if they are educated. Educated denizens will also have a better toolset available for opposing the government in a decision.
Uneducated people mostly oppose governments if they are roused by the educated, and they will much more quickly shrug their shoulders and think "What do I know, perhaps the government knows best after all.".
These are general statements, not absolute truths.They can be correct in some scenarios and false in others.

P.S. Education and knowledge does not automatically yield wisdom, perspective, and altruism.
Most people, educated or not, vote for the politics that they believe will benefit themselves the most, or perhaps it's more correct to say that they don't really know what they are voting for...

 

[Thunderbrd]

What does this have to do with anarchy? All you did was expose your political leanings. And perpetuate a falsehood.

Was just being used as an example of civic anarchy in action. I was, as Toffer90 pointed out, trying to be as neutral as possible. I realize most GOP voters don't think of this as an issue of party voting power and demographics control but hey that's what it is really all about. Even Dems aren't trying to explain that because they don't want it to appear to be a matter of their own party voting power either. So the arguments are all publicized to be very different things. Both are appealing to different moral and personal values in a public manner with their own arguments. Neither side will give here because the stakes are the careers of everyone involved as well as the long term impact to their parties, so we're really going to be bound up for a long time on this. I suspect the gov will be shut down until we have something even more crazy taking place or the next major election changes the balance of power.

Ultimately my point is that the smarter people are, generally the more severely they disagree. Opinions are more powerful when you know more about a subject and giving way to what you disagree with becomes far less palatable in the face of that. It is true that this isn't ALWAYS true, as it can commonly be that people who actually know very little about a topic may think they know a lot. But even if we assume that higher education means more accurate knowledge, it's still going to create greater variety and strength of opinion. Anarchy time is the measure of how quickly folks can come to community consensus or be effectively suppressed if they don't by those who have captured power. It's also harder to suppress the better educated.

 

[tmv]

It is true that this isn't ALWAYS true, as it can commonly be that people who actually know very little about a topic may think they know a lot.

Yes, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect - but AFAIK this isn't a fringe phenomenon, this really needs to be considered. And of course, no matter who is right, there are always idiots on either side of any debate.

 

[Per Åhman]

I hope this is the last page of that brittle political discussion above...
______

Civ IV: Caveman 2 Cosmos 38.5
12 years of player experience with the mod
Hi, I'm 45, not native to English.
I've played the game since before the Millennia and the mod on several different platforms and computers since its early morning days.
______
Old and really stupid problems that have been sickening the mod for many years:
* Volcano eruptions not seen in your view still pop up as warnings.
* Source 'natron' has been spawned on all maps right in the sea or ocean since its introduction several years ago.
* You know beforehand some squares will be later revealed for certain sources or never, a.e. for example water-squares without visible surface add-on's are the only ones coming to show aquatic resources, or animal resources will never appear on flood-plains and so forth.
* Important early resources like stone or copper are placed in mountains where they won't be reachable until tens of thousands of years later when they have no role to play and you've lost the game long time ago.
* Late resources primed to come into play later in the game, like "cattle" or "sheep" are dozed among players at game-start together with earlier resources hitting your neighbors, so you won't stand a chance until it's too late if one of those are in your first city squares.
* Primordial resources like "stone" are often out of reach from the second row, but still counted as close enough by the setting AI even though they won't be reachable until you've been able to develop a second city, at which point more than 50% of your games will be the obnoxious end-result.
* Starting positions in every strategy game is important. Some map-generators are better than others, but not even the best are close to acceptable here.
I've ended up with three ice squares in the middle of an ocean, including a barbaric village on the third square. And remember how time-consuming it is to start over a game in C2C!
* Cultural prerequisites when the AI chooses a starting place seem to be flagrant at the lowest best. Your viking more often starts in the middle of the jungle than actually in the north, and Gilgamesh will have a desert square in its vicinity about 3 percent of your starts. If you have more than five continents the chance to even have one on your actual continent can be as low as 15%.
* Starting-places with only one production [hammer] in a square is common. Two even so. Other players start with 3 or even 4. (version 36 or lower) The difference is like using a bow to hunt pigeons for 10.000 years (in the game) or using an AK'45 to slaughter 20 bears and wolves. If you start on the higher difficulties of the game, where your AI foes actually have several techs already discovered, it quickly feels just dumb to even let the game continue from an indigenous start like that.
* Placing of a city supported by a river is so important, that later into the next Era, it's a game-changer. Yet about half the AI-settings starts without this obvious merit.
* 30% of the Natural Wonders ends up unusable. And they are usually the same. The Volcano 'Krakatura', the weird greenish light Americans think is "The Northern Light" or 'Aurora', the Japanese Mountain 'Fuji', the Middle Eastern 'Mountain in Sinai', the Russian 'Lake Baikal' and 'Mount Everest' are such wonders likely to never ever be used, so typically misplaced they could've been removed from the game eons ago.
* Too many players oftentimes start with extreme health issues (over the already bad predicament with only one or two production on the first working-square) due to lack of trees or health-generating squares, or the opposite --- too many health-degenerating squares like 'jungle', 'marsh', 'desert' and whatever that strange gray-black is supposed to be. This has ended some of my estimated longer games quickly as civs can be destroyed even by a few barbarians. If that happened on another Continent I would never had discovered it until too late.
* About 30 percent of the starts have close to open sea squares, but no real sea. The handicap of this seems ignored. You cannot create an harbor and then ships if all you get is two lake-squares and no direct sea-squares!
* About 15 percent starts have no sea connection whatsoever, and should be merited superior benefits because of it. More than seldom they tend to be placed in the middle of a desert without any source of floating water, with maybe a cactus that will appear on the outskirt when other civs are close to reach 'Sedentary Lifestyle'.
* The benefit of hills is mainly ignored on all maps in any game.
* Many map-generators produce unreachable sections of land due to mountains or volcanoes.
* Almost all map-generators produce sections of ice on coastal waters in the polar edges, which cannot be traversed by any means until the game has finished itself.
* All map-generators produce early sea resources on places totally out of reach, unusable and unnecessary ('fish' and 'crabs' for example).
* All map-generators produce future sea resources only on squares far out that will never and can never be used (for example 'methane ice' and those 'thermal-' whatever they are called).
* Some resources are never available anywhere in a certain game-start on generated maps, like 'whales' or 'mammuts'.
* Due to its coastal position, at least one resource; 'whales' in most games becomes obsolete as a prerequisite source before it can actually be used.
* Many resources important for civs to develop their specific culture do not appear in the vicinity of their starting civs, nor even on their appointed Continents.
This common problem, I think, is related to the idea of the original game; that there should be only five (5) Continents.
______
Really, really missing:
Water-resources should be more than just static and premature. Most civs never start with any. There should for example be possible for aquatic resources like "fish" to appear where there are none from the beginning, just like elephants, deer or bison, or the ever so tending 'parrots'.
______
From version 37 and up (38.5 by now) the mod has become unplayable for me.
There are several reasons for this. Some of-course since I'm used to certain elements. But I'll explain a few here:
No matter what speed I use, nothing really happens in early game-play anymore.
Earlier I could go out hunting. Now most animals never attack, meaning I have to wait first for my early units to be able, and then I have to hunt animals down one by one when it's too late to matter, while in actual I have three- or four-doubled my own total playing-time.
Some squares are even just infinitely occupied by animals I can't get rid of. But nevertheless this is a small problem compared to total time spent doing nothing.
If I play 23 AI players on a 'Great map', it takes my fast PC to do the early turn-rolls in less than 15 seconds.
But the play-ability in the beginning has been so scrutinized that you're sitting 47 turns out in the back-yard while no engagement happens in the wild, no interesting city development happens, and you've wasted an hour or more as a player earning and feeling nothing. You just moved the few pieces you had and pressed the continue-button. It's not strategic. No important choices. No happy blings.
This annoyingly slow development continue, and I even haven't been using the "Marathon"- or slower speed which according to the developers, are preferred!
Since version 33 there has been some really enjoyable effects of perfection to the actual core game-speed, but since version 36 this betterment has suffered. Optimal choices over long turn have increased but the choices within turns, especially early turns, have decreased drastically.
This is not a problem only for me as a veteran player who've been playing the mod since the early 20's, but I'm pretty sure it further hardens the spring of potential new players.
______
And please get rid of that "Green Man civ" who nine turns into the game discover several natural wonders and circumvents the Globe...
______
All the best regards on the otherwise probably most superior mod ever created to any game
/Michael Ohman

 

[Toffer90]

______
And please get rid of that "Green Man civ" who nine turns into the game discover several natural wonders and circumvents the Globe...
______

I find it strange that one else have reported this if it is happening...

Otherwise the list you provided is a good reference if a modder is wondering what needs doing.

 

[raxo2222]

I find it strange that one else have reported this if it is happening...

Otherwise the list you provided is a good reference if a modder is wondering what needs doing.

That happens only when someone saves game as scenario and doesn't remove spurious civs (NPCs saved into file as if they were normal civs) in scenario file - that is you need to cleanup scenarios after saving them.

All scenarios MUST have defined last 10 teams like this, as those are reserved for NPCs.

BeginPlayer
   Team=40
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=41
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=42
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=43
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=44
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=45
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=46
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=47
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=48
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=49
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
EndPlayer

------------This is valid too
BeginPlayer
   Team=40
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=41
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=42
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=43
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=44
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=45
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=46
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=47
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=48
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
   Team=49
   LeaderType=NONE
   CivType=NONE
   Color=NONE
   ArtStyle=NONE
   Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer

If you downloaded maps from forums, then likely mapmakers failed their job.

As for resources I can remove ocean (or replace ocean with sea if ocean is only water type terrain) as valid terrain to spawn water resources.
Also I can remove latitude restrictions for non-animal water resources.
He confused Natron with Manganese or something, since its manganese spawning in water tiles.
If all map scripts sometimes replaced sea with deep sea, then some of those resources would be better using deep sea instead of oceans.
Now oceans are pretty hard to reach by cities.

He should get SVN, since some of those issues could be fixed here.

 

[raxo2222]

@Toffer90 you should use all deep sea variants in World mapscript, not just temperate ones.

I guess I can add deep sea to bonus defines too.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think we defined salt water areas as

Navigation

• coast = can see land from row boat
• sea = can see land (including mts) from atop mast
• ocean = can't see land

Environment

• polar
• temperate
• tropical

Depth

• shelf for continental shelf
  
• abyss
• with variants
  • sea mounts which don't reach the surface
  • trench both in shelf and abyss

With shortcuts taken so a plot with terrain "coast" means "temperate coastal shelf".

The maps I worked on never got the Mts requirement for extending sea. Nor do they have any of the depths or variations.

Old and really stupid problems that have been sickening the mod for many years:
* Volcano eruptions not seen in your view still pop up as warnings.

Yes, for a short period I had this working like it should ie the event happens and the message is only displayed to all players which have units that can see the plot or it is visible from your cultural borders. Thus it does not matter which player causes the event or where on the map the chosen volcano is. There is no relationship, as far as I can tell, with the player triggering the event and which volcano is chosen.

* Source 'natron' has been spawned on all maps right in the sea or ocean since its introduction several years ago.

I have never experienced this. There is nothing in the definition that even allows it to be on water tiles. The XML says it can only spawn on Salt Flats. It should have a chance to be on other hot desert terrains also but it is not defined to do so.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you downloaded maps from forums, then likely mapmakers failed their job.

This is Very True. Because we use Terrain and terrain features that most other Civ Fanatic Mod map makers do not have.

Mr Ohman you really should consider installing the SVN to get the latest version of this mod. The Steps to do so are found in the 1st post of the SVN Changelog thread.

And this is Very important now for C2C, clear those cache locations Raxxo posted.

Also delete cache, if you played VERY old version of this mod, other mods or vanilla civ4 before.
C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\My Games\Beyond the Sword
C:\Users\<USERNAME>\Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword

 

[raxo2222]

I think we defined salt water areas as

Navigation

• coast = can see land from row boat
• sea = can see land (including mts) from atop mast
• ocean = can't see land

Environment

• polar
• temperate
• tropical

Depth

• shelf for continental shelf
  
• abyss
• with variants
  • sea mounts which don't reach the surface
  • trench both in shelf and abyss

With shortcuts taken so a plot with terrain "coast" means "temperate coastal shelf".

I have never experienced this. There is nothing in the definition that even allows it to be on water tiles. The XML says it can only spawn on Salt Flats. It should have a chance to be on other hot desert terrains also but it is not defined to do so.

Depth seems to be standard or deep.

Toffer used only Temperate Deep Sea variant, not Tropical/Polar Deep Seas.

Per Aham confused Natron with Manganese by the way.

 

[raxo2222]

This is Very True. Because we use Terrain and terrain features that most other Civ Fanatic Mod map makers do not have.

This is in context of not clearing scenarios after saving them (worldbuilder is one of things, that no one touched) - that is unnecessary stuff is saved and needs to be removed by directly editing files.
I was talking about maps from this subforum, not forums as general.

 

[Toffer90]

@Toffer90 you should use all deep sea variants in World mapscript, not just temperate ones.

I'll look into it.

I guess I can add deep sea to bonus defines too.

I already have this done for my next commit.
It would mess with my other changes to that file if you commit that before me, nothing I couldn't sort through though.

 

[raxo2222]

I already have this done for my next commit.
It would mess with my other changes to that file if you commit that before me, nothing I couldn't sort through though.

Yeah, I already committed my changes to this file.

 

[raxo2222]

@Toffer90 looks like you reverted all my changes here, for example you removed all deep sea entries, as if there was accident at merging.
That is as if you didn't update SVN, and then do changes you wanted to.

Your map generates deep sea, so resources were meant to be placed here.
Other mapscripts don't limit how far in ocean resources can generate.
Also there shouldn't be any trench used here, since they never are in vicinity of cities.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Extraction Facility should work at all depths. It starts out only available on the shelf but as remote control and AI improve it can go deeper with no limit. It should probably be an upgrade Oil Rigs.

Sea resources should show up anywhere not just near the shore. How do you know where the cities are going to be to limit them!

Whales should be available as a resource on the continental shelf and in coastal waters.

Events like the migrating herd events need to be made for fist, shrimp and perhaps crab but they should be less likely.

 

[Toffer90]

It looked like accident at merging your changes with mine, so I reverted it.
What you actually wanted to change?

No accident, that was how I wanted it.

@Toffer90 looks like you reverted all my changes here, for example you removed all deep sea entries, as if there was accident at merging.
That is as if you didn't update SVN, and then do changes you wanted to.

Your map generates deep sea, so resources were meant to be placed here.
Other mapscripts don't limit how far in ocean resources can generate.
Also there shouldn't be any trench used here, since they never are in vicinity of cities.

I did not revert all your changes, many of the deep sea entries you added, I were about to add myself, and kept them there.
Clam, pearl and crab should not be at deep sea and ocean.
Trench can be the third tile away from a city, and whale was the only bonus I set to be able to be there.
Large amount of whale should imo not be located on sea close to shore unless it's deep sea, and it should definitely be placed on ocean. My argument for this is based on gameplay reasons; whale should be harder to reach than, fish, shrimp, lobster, etc.
Why should oil, methane, manganeese and geothermal vent only be on sea tiles and not on ocean tiles?
Why shouldn't fish and shrimp be on ocean plots?
We have a disagreement of opinion here it seems.