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Caveman 2 Cosmos
- Thread starter strategyonly
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This is a scenario with a fixed map. The map originally was random made but it is always the same when you play this scenario.
All the maps starting with "a space map" can be used in C2C until the end of the tech tree and provide the full "space experience" as currently possible (your computer generated opponents won't go into space).
I don't really know where that information is but I can say that the AI always plays on Noble difficulty, so if you also play Noble no one will have an advantage. But as the AI has some difficulties with strategic decisions (besides other problems) we suggest to play on something more difficult than Noble or it becomes too easy.
Somebody613
Somebody613
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Won't be ABLE to, or won't have enough AI to?
Like, if I force-feed them the relevant tech and units (going as far as literally building a city that way, then donating it to AI), would they be CAPABLE of it game-wise?
I'm not sure it's possible to restrict units to be built player-only (unless I forgot something), so did you mean more like "their AI doesn't have the data to use space units effectively"?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Space is completely confusing to the AI. Even setting up a scenario would probably fail to function in any kind of effective manner. Even most of the space units are incorrectly designed with major game bugs. But there are no AI routines to help the AI understand the first thing about how to navigate in a space map beyond Earth.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
then why do we have them ingame, how about getting them out for now and IF U ever get things working on that THEN put them back, but i dont think that will happen, IMPO..
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
That's always been my take on the space stuff but there's a lot of players that seem to play just to get to experience that sandbox once they get to that point. I think it might be unfair to those who simply want to experience that side of things. Raxo has been pretty good about answering questions on how to go about things at that stage and it IS helpful to have the proof of concept stuff in place for now.
I'm not sure what would happen if one were to turn off Pepper's module... but that's pretty much what we'd probably want to do. It also does seem kinda silly to spend time removing stuff that all that time was spent including to be designed around. No, I don't see any solutions anytime soon either but I think for quite a few folks, it would feel like we're just sliding backwards because we can't get enough momentum forwards.
That said, I don't care the slightest about the space material tbh. I've never got there, have no understanding of it, probably disagree with most of how its implemented to the point that in the end I'd probably replace most of it, using it mostly as a conceptual guide more than anything. If we ever get that far.
The mod is literally called "caveman2cosmos", removing the space stuff would be... odd, a step backwards. Step 1 is to add it, have it functioning for the human players. Step 2 is to work towards coding the AI to understand what to do with it.
So I'd vote against removing it. Just being there helps set a goal, it's incomplete, a hole to fill in etc. If you take it away, then the hole will be a black hole, never to be completed. You gotta start somewhere
I love having it in. If players don't like it, they can ignore it
So I'd vote against removing it. Just being there helps set a goal, it's incomplete, a hole to fill in etc. If you take it away, then the hole will be a black hole, never to be completed. You gotta start somewhere
I love having it in. If players don't like it, they can ignore it
I think how you start space program should be completely reworked to make it compatible with AI.
1. Create 3 buildings - Space Station level 1 - 3, just like we have farmscrapers.
They would be unlocked when respective space station improvements are unlocked.
2. Space Station level 3 building would let you build Cislunar and Lunar settler.
Space Station improvement then would be simply improvement that you place on Orbit to boost Cislunar cities.
3. Remove improvement requirement from Lunar Settler - then Lunar Base and its upgrades would be regular improvements.
Then AI would simply build three levels of Space Station buildings. Third level replaces second level, which replaces first level.
Then it can build Cislunar and Lunar settlers at their respective techs on Earth (and in cislunar cities independently).
Lunar Bulldozer (first lunar worker) would be available on same tech as Lunar settlers.
This would remove need for heavy rockets, space shuttles, construction ships (units), and Lunar Base, Space Station (and this improvement upgrades) as REQUIREMENT for space colonization - that is no longer being only way to build space cities on beginning.
Currently AI can't start space colonization, because is too dumb to build improvements outside territory and to send units to improvement to upgrade it, and to convert unit to space settler.
1. Create 3 buildings - Space Station level 1 - 3, just like we have farmscrapers.
They would be unlocked when respective space station improvements are unlocked.
2. Space Station level 3 building would let you build Cislunar and Lunar settler.
Space Station improvement then would be simply improvement that you place on Orbit to boost Cislunar cities.
3. Remove improvement requirement from Lunar Settler - then Lunar Base and its upgrades would be regular improvements.
Then AI would simply build three levels of Space Station buildings. Third level replaces second level, which replaces first level.
Then it can build Cislunar and Lunar settlers at their respective techs on Earth (and in cislunar cities independently).
Lunar Bulldozer (first lunar worker) would be available on same tech as Lunar settlers.
This would remove need for heavy rockets, space shuttles, construction ships (units), and Lunar Base, Space Station (and this improvement upgrades) as REQUIREMENT for space colonization - that is no longer being only way to build space cities on beginning.
Currently AI can't start space colonization, because is too dumb to build improvements outside territory and to send units to improvement to upgrade it, and to convert unit to space settler.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I don't think the AI would even see space as something it could try to navigate without some coding work. Even with a unit that can technically do so. I'm not sure - but for example, the settler code to get a settler to board a ship is massively complex and making numerous assumptions that only naval plots would separate land masses. Any other kind of settler unit would look only to see what settling plots are available on its own 'area' (continent - aka contiguous land plot mass) and ignore anything outside that area for the sake of keeping its evaluation process from dragging the round into near infinity looking at plots it can never get to. Therefore, even if it COULD go into space, it would see space as outside its potential 'area' where it could settle and thus not even consider it.
So even if I changed start of space colonization to something completely traditional, AI still would have trouble with it?
Currently creating first space colonies is extremely complex:
1. Send Space Shuttle or Heavy Rocket to Orbit.
2. Build Space Station.
3. Send three Heavy Rockets: First two to upgrade space station, third one to turn it into cislunar settler (at Advanced Environmental Systems).
4. Build Cislunar city at Orbit
5. Send additional Heavy Rockets to Space Station level 3 to upgrade them to cislunar settler
4a Send Constructor Ship to Moon and build Lunar Base on Moon near resources.
5a Send Heavy Rocket to Level3 Space Station and upgrade to Lunar Settler
6a Send Lunar Settler to Lunar Base and build city
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah, the depth of AI coding to simply get it to think units of any kind could go to space for any reason and then give it cause to do so would be highly dedicated AI coding in itself. There may be some tricky stuff that could be done with the space plots to make it a little easier but that would probably invite a lot of AI spam responses into those zones potentially.
As I always said, we either do all that work for multimaps or we waste a year or two doing ai for units to make it possible for them to work with space maps as they are now.
Space terrains doesn't have any yields unlike Earthy terrains, so i guess this would be one of many problems.
Then if AI could make space settlers like any other units with simple building requirement, it wouldn't know where to settle them in space zone.
I guess there should be some point of interest - for example in cislunar zone Orbit terrain could have +1 commerce.
Other zones have bonuses placed in them, so AI could build cities near them, and then place more cities near existing cities even if terrain has 0 value.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It might even be easier to work with a setup like we have here by giving each of those units a special unitAI that instructs it to do just those things in as simple terms as you possibly could. Then figuring out what conditions to prompt the construction of such units through a call for a unit of that special unitAI type when it becomes necessary.
A more generic or even 'simplified' system could ironically be even tougher to code for the AI to work with a more open ended set of possibilities. For example, a city prompts itself to build a settler unit when it senses that there could be good settleable spots on the area/continent its on, OR good spots that navies might be able to get a settler to reach and both are independent evaluations of the other. But to try to add considerations to 'within space zones' might be harder than adding another evaluation specifically for when the city might think to train a space shuttle or heavy rocket to send into orbit - as in, is it possible? Yes? Cool... question 2, is now a good time? Question 3: are the opportunities still valid, space still available, etc... And if all conditions apply and the city is otherwise doing basically little of great importance, then blam, it trains one of these things. Then the unit AI, when it comes time to ask itself what to do, has simple instructions on what to do to fulfill its purpose(s). That would be a lot easier than to add to a generic settler a huge set of if/thens to see if it can/should be doing something in space when most of the game it can't.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah, the whole thinking behind what a good selection condition would even be very different, as you point out here.
So this space colonization ritual would be better for AI after all.
I wonder if nomadic start ritual would be something like this too.
So if AI unlocks space shuttles and heavy rockets, then it would be compelled to build space stations AND upgrade them in Orbit.
It also would be compelled to place lunar bases on Moon nearby resources and then place them in grid pattern, and then send lunar settlers to build cities here
AI then would be compelled to build heavy rocket to send it to Space Station level 3, to upgrade into cislunar/lunar/planetary settler.
At some point you can build lunar, cislunar and planetary settlers in space cities too.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah I have always had some concept of a plan in regards to that which would be similar to what I'm saying - the nomadic population would certainly have its own AI routine.
Right - and interestingly enough, it could only be something that has cause to fire up units with those special unitAI settings if the map was a space map, letting us then work the whole system as differently as we'd need to based on a multimap environment. Going through and figuring out how to program a unitAI isn't actually ALL that bad - Flabbert has been doing a lot to REprogram the worker unitAI for example. But there are quite a few places one must consider and I've been meaning to generate a catalogue of the code functions that do need to be addressed with any new unitAI definition (largely I'd go about this by looking at where they already are now to start.)
Personally, I think the issue of immersion is going to win over simple presentation any day - and for all the work you're doing with the artwork and modeling, you're going to have to face the fact that if your players have gotten used to moving around men and vehicles over land and sea all game, switching up to space maps might be asking a bit much - especially with the engine you have to work with.
So...cheat - think about Civ4 Colonization. The original "space race" victory seems to be nothing more than a relic by this point anyway, so axe it and replace it with a "Europe" type of screen where you can create different kinds of ships, like exploration or colony ships. Then when you're ready, you click "Launch", and the game can auto-generate material using RNG and a table to generate how well your spacecraft is doing, for example.
So...cheat - think about Civ4 Colonization. The original "space race" victory seems to be nothing more than a relic by this point anyway, so axe it and replace it with a "Europe" type of screen where you can create different kinds of ships, like exploration or colony ships. Then when you're ready, you click "Launch", and the game can auto-generate material using RNG and a table to generate how well your spacecraft is doing, for example.
I changed space race to be late Transhuman era endeavour in SVN some time ago (all parts needs techs from second half of Transhuman era).
So you are really building starship to Alpha Centauri
So it shouldn't be scrapped.
Diplomacy Victory is bigger relic, since civics it references are midgame ones, and you unlocked somewhere about 2/3rd of all civics by that point.
I agree. The only thing I find annoying about the space part is that at some point your generals/admirals inevitably start appearing in space cities, and good luck getting them back to Earth.
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