Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Noriad2]

Is there any way to keep AIs from building numerous forts to mass-claim resources many tiles away from their cities? Portugal currently has a chain of these Wooden outposts stretching almost ten tiles away from his borders, snatching up the resources along the way.

I don't have a problem with the building forts or having military claim tiles if it's close to their border, a tile or two away, but chaining it that far (And he's still stretching it out further) I'd rather him not do. For whatever reason, he's the only one currently doing this. Several other AI are in the Ancient Era as well, but he's the only one spamming 'forts' to grab tiles away from his borders.

Cheers for the AI playing well!!

Anyway, if you don't like it you should stop him. If a peace treaty stands in the way, declare war. Or don't make that peace treaty in the first place until you have secured the territory you want for yourself.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Cheers for the AI playing well!!

Anyway, if you don't like it you should stop him. If a peace treaty stands in the way, declare war. Or don't make that peace treaty in the first place until you have secured the territory you want for yourself.

Exactly!

@Rezca better start laying your own down. It's an aspect of strategy in C2C. And I hope you are Not using Minimum City borders too. Making the outer 8 tiles of the original 9 tiles for a city impervious to culture was a bad idea, imho.

@DH,

8827
Subdued animals have 0 combat strength and can't be butchered.

Why? Especially the 2nd part. Sometimes you can be trying to get back to your city to unload and by the time you make it you could have a train of SAs in tow. Being unable to butcher in the field means loss of city revenue as well. Unless you just abandon some of them or Kill them off for no gain.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH,


Why? Especially the 2nd part. Sometimes you can be trying to get back to your city to unload and by the time you make it you could have a train of SAs in tow. Being unable to butcher in the field means loss of city revenue as well. Unless you just abandon some of them or Kill them off for no gain.

JosEPh

As per my discussion of what I was going to do, you always get the "butcher in the field" yields when you kill, subdue or find a resource by "killing" a wild animal. I may increase the yield at a later time.

Str 0 means they wont need to heal as str=0 means they don't have damage, but that needs to be fixed in the dll @TB as the code will still be giving them 25% health I expect. Not having to heal means that the hunter units wont need to wait around for them to heal, at least the AI wont.

 

[Rezca]

Exactly!

@Rezca better start laying your own down. It's an aspect of strategy in C2C. And I hope you are Not using Minimum City borders too. Making the outer 8 tiles of the original 9 tiles for a city impervious to culture was a bad idea, imho.

I didn't know it was a strategy you and the AI were expected to use - since when I used to play C2C extensively, it was a very very very old version and way before I ever got an account on the forums. The AI certainly didn't do that then, and in AND these tactics are limited to just a few tiles away from your natural borders - so you can't chain forts / military tiles dozens of tiles away from your core cities. As such, I wasn't really expecting to see something like this. Knowing it's a part of how C2C plays, I'll just have to adapt

Are there any hidden-national units in the Prehistoric/Ancient that *don't* require Banditry though? I'd really like to avoid spending any extended length of time in that civic, but since Joao is only Cautious with me and we're now running different religions (Tengrii just spread to his cities, and I'm Shamanist) so I don't see any real harm in a declaration to limit his expansion in this case


Thanks for the advice though, I'll try to keep up with my own forts in the future

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is part of the Super Fort mod, by Stolenrays, we merged in to C2C with v35 or at the beginning of v36

 

[Noriad2]

Are there any hidden-national units in the Prehistoric/Ancient that *don't* require Banditry though?

Yes but the one is the prehistory is not easy to get access to.

You need 2 subdued poison snakes. One to build Snake Charmer (which can also be built by a subdued ball python), and once you have that and the Animism tech, you can settle the 2nd poison snake in the same city which gives poison resource. Once you have that, you can build a poison crafters hut which allows Ambushers which are hidden-nationality units.

I get the impression that poison snakes like Vipers tend to spawn mostly on forests.
There are other ways to get the poison resource but they are even harder. See the in-game Sevopedia.

Later option: When you research Code of Laws and build an Assassins Den you can build Assassins.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There's none I can build at the moment (I'm not using Banditry currently), but placing a Warchief down in the WB the unit wasn't able to enter any of the fort tiles. Claimed it wasn't a valid move. I'd rather not have to be in Banditry to keep the AI from chaining forts all the way up to my borders (That's almost 20+ tiles there!) but if that's the only way to keep him from doing it...

Latest SVN, warlords SHOULD be able to attack a fort. If they aren't I have more work to do. Maybe. After they've been tweaked according to the general plans of the current unit review they should be able to attack just fine.

As per my discussion of what I was going to do, you always get the "butcher in the field" yields when you kill, subdue or find a resource by "killing" a wild animal. I may increase the yield at a later time.

Str 0 means they wont need to heal as str=0 means they don't have damage, but that needs to be fixed in the dll @TB as the code will still be giving them 25% health I expect. Not having to heal means that the hunter units wont need to wait around for them to heal, at least the AI wont.

I'm not sure it will matter either way if a 0 str unit is or is not 'damaged' but if it does show to make a difference to anything (like AI) then I'll look into it right away. IIRC, there's an automatic self-correction when it comes to 0 str units and damage, something along the lines of 'damage has no meaning'. Something like that. But I also recall odd health bar results and that may be all that comes of it.

 

[Rezca]

@Noriad: Ah right, Ambushers. Most of those outlying forts were undefended so it'd be easy to sneak in and pillage them. The ones closest to his true borders had some watch dogs posted on them - very smart!
Poison through vipers is usually pretty easy for me to get, the "Two resources in city vicinity" ones, not so much xD

@TB: At the time of my posting it was the latest revision, I'm on 8826 at the moment. I spawned in a warchief and he wasn't able to enter. He had the 'crime' promotion on him at the time though, if that had anything to do with it. The one that adds +5 Crime to a plot per turn?

 

[JanusTalaiini]

Using hidden nationality units won't work, because they can't enter forts. They can attack units IN forts, but once the fort is empty they cannot enter the tile.

 

[Rezca]

@Janus: Been hearing mixed reports on that lately...
Some have been suggesting it does work, others have been saying it doesn't. If it doesn't work, is that intended or unintended?


Combat class: Reptile (Dinosaur). I see no dinosaurs yet, but I see no Shockwave Ships either so...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gyvrl9w5mamjefp/Dinosaurs.rar Sogroon added a few dinos as an addon for AND some time back when I brought the topic up over there; they're fun to play around with ^^
Alternate Timeline units, tamed raptors and War Tyrannos? Would be just like Paraworld! (I wish GoG.com would pick that game up, it was a great if underrated RTS...)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Looks like I need to evaluate the forts and HN a bit more yet.

 

[NevFin]

I have not played the latest SVN so things may have changed since early last week. This is my experience with neutral forts (maybe enemy forts as well??).

Rogue/Thief - can pillage but cannot destroy forts because they cannot enter an empty fort.
Ambusher - can enter the fort but cannot pillage and cannot destroy the fort.

My solution has been to take a captured Neanderthal unit, upgrade to a Neanderthal warrior and use him to pillage and destroy forts. He is hidden nationality and can roam freely through other civs. He is not invisible, but effective. The only strange thing which may get changed in the future is that he can also enter a neutral civs city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have not played the latest SVN so things may have changed since early last week. This is my experience with neutral forts (maybe enemy forts as well??).

Rogue/Thief - can pillage but cannot destroy forts because they cannot enter an empty fort.
Ambusher - can enter the fort but cannot pillage and cannot destroy the fort.

My solution has been to take a captured Neanderthal unit, upgrade to a Neanderthal warrior and use him to pillage and destroy forts. He is hidden nationality and can roam freely through other civs. He is not invisible, but effective. The only strange thing which may get changed in the future is that he can also enter a neutral civs city.

Yes a Neander works as described in NevFin's post.

I have also found that an empty fort/palisade?etc ca n be entered by one of my Hunters and if left there for a few turns changes the tile to my culture. At least that was still the case at svn 8825. have not had a chance to test this with the latest and a new game.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I believe Warlords are set to <bNoCapture> which is why they can't take forts once emptied. I know that's also the issue with rogues and other criminal units. Ambushers aren't set to no capture but as you said, they cannot pillage.

Again, some of this will be a bit easier to work with after my pending unit adjustments.

 

[Yudishtira]

Poison through vipers is usually pretty easy for me to get, the "Two resources in city vicinity" ones, not so much xD

This is yet another thing that we can fix now that Hydro is gone. Two resources in city vicinity for curare might be fair enough, but for various fungi including Amanita, as well as for strawberries, blackberries and all sorts of other common-as-muck fruit/flowers/etc., it is completely ridiculous.

There are also some common temperate zone plants that supply poison, especially digitalis (foxglove), but also (off the top of my head) nightshade and hellebore.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is yet another thing that we can fix now that Hydro is gone. Two resources in city vicinity for curare might be fair enough, but for various fungi including Amanita, as well as for strawberries, blackberries and all sorts of other common-as-muck fruit/flowers/etc., it is completely ridiculous.

There are also some common temperate zone plants that supply poison, especially digitalis (foxglove), but also (off the top of my head) nightshade and hellebore.

I would most certainly appreciate a list of poisons, what they come from, what their effects are on people, and how they are best delivered. This will be something I will want to invest some very intensive modding into at some point in the somewhat nearing future. I'll need this info for that.

As for the dual resource in vicinity buildings... there's an elegance in the design that I wouldn't want to run through like an elephant in a china shop. But there ARE some pretty common commons that we may be able to redefine the prereqs for.

 

[Faustmouse]

If it is TOO easy to get poison so everybody ends up getting it, then you lose the benefit if you have it. But more ways to get it would be good, that's true. And I think TB wanted to add various types of poison with different effects.

 

[Yudishtira]

I would most certainly appreciate a list of poisons

Here's 7:

Natural Poisons|||||
Name|Class|Source|Effects|Delivery|Native To
Digitalis|cardiac glycoside|Digitalis (Foxglove) flowering plant|slows heart rate|eaten|W & SW Europe,W & C Asia,NW Africa,Australasia
ranunculin|glucoside|Black Hellebore|slows heart rate|eaten|North-central Europe (mountainous areas),,,
atropine|tropane alkaloids|Deadly Nightshade (belladonna)|parasympathetic nervous system|eaten|Europe,N Africa,W Asia,N America
scopolamine|"|"|"|"|"
hyoscyamine|"|"|"|"|"
oleandrin|cardiac glycoside|nerium oleander|slows heart rate|eaten|SW Asia?,,,
Aconitine|Sodium-ion channel inhibitor|Aconitum plant(s) (monkshood)|irregularity of heart rate|eaten/weapon|mountains of N Hemisphere,,,
Strychnine|alkaloid neurotoxin|Strychnus nux-vomica tree|asphyxiation due to muscle spasms|eaten|S & SE Asia
Arsenic|natural element|natural groundwater|heart disease, coma|eaten/drunk|SW N America,SW S America,E & SE Asia,

 

[Buildkirbyus]

That begs the question: should poisons alter Spy missions? Assassinations and poisoning water already exists, but would these poisons make them stronger/improve?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Here's 7:

Natural Poisons|||||
Name|Class|Source|Effects|Delivery|Native To
Digitalis|cardiac glycoside|Digitalis (Foxglove) flowering plant|slows heart rate|eaten|W & SW Europe,W & C Asia,NW Africa,Australasia
ranunculin|glucoside|Black Hellebore|slows heart rate|eaten|North-central Europe (mountainous areas),,,
atropine|tropane alkaloids|Deadly Nightshade (belladonna)|parasympathetic nervous system|eaten|Europe,N Africa,W Asia,N America
scopolamine|"|"|"|"|"
hyoscyamine|"|"|"|"|"
oleandrin|cardiac glycoside|nerium oleander|slows heart rate|eaten|SW Asia?,,,
Aconitine|Sodium-ion channel inhibitor|Aconitum plant(s) (monkshood)|irregularity of heart rate|eaten/weapon|mountains of N Hemisphere,,,
Strychnine|alkaloid neurotoxin|Strychnus nux-vomica tree|asphyxiation due to muscle spasms|eaten|S & SE Asia
Arsenic|natural element|natural groundwater|heart disease, coma|eaten/drunk|SW N America,SW S America,E & SE Asia,

Cool. Good start. Taking note of the animals poisons can be derived from can be hugely beneficial as well. Pretty sure Strychnine can also be derived from Rattlesnake venom.

We'll want more... this is worth its own thread.