Caveman 2 Cosmos

[sunrisereader]

when they where added they where the only crime style unit, so the fact they where a unit that moved next to cities and destroyed defences was noting strange. Now there are a lot of crime units but they all affect cities by entering them and hurting the city from there(and can be countered by law enforcement units) leaving the arsonist as an exception. maybe rename the unit to sapper(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapper) if a similar unit is desired, and make the arsonist a crime unit like the rest(with maybe a increase in flammability for cities he is in). The unit exist in the gap between the invention of walls and the first siege engines that can damage a cities walls.

 

[Taxman66]

Apologies if this subject was previously covered; but can someone explain to me why there are Neanderthals (not talking about a civ AI) with two different flags (standard barb, and a black & brown)? What's the difference and/or purpose of that? Is it just to put more early game high combat/outclass value enemies? They're showing up before I even get clubmen which they still outclass by 50%.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This I understood. Even way back when.....

But in the reality of the Mod a total of 20 is but a mere pittance to the stacks of hundreds of units this mod allows with it's default stack limit being Unlimited (-1). Now IF, the Stack were limited to 100 or less this discussion/"rant" would have more relevance. As it stands now it does not. Just that simple.

And as to having National units status, they are so just the same as other Siege units are. Otherwise do you want stacks sitting around the AI cities again? I really don't think so.

No what I meant is that people who play with no national limits, eg TB, are not having the problem with an over abundance of siege units any more so perhaps the National unit status is no longer needed on them

 

[Toffer90]

Apologies if this subject was previously covered; but can someone explain to me why there are Neanderthals (not talking about a civ AI) with two different flags (standard barb, and a black & brown)? What's the difference and/or purpose of that? Is it just to put more early game high combat/outclass value enemies? They're showing up before I even get clubmen which they still outclass by 50%.

There shouldn't be any neanderthal units in the standard barbarian team, all neanderthal units should have the neanderthal flag.
Must be an oversight in the spawninfo xml, I'll look into it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

when they where added they where the only crime style unit, so the fact they where a unit that moved next to cities and destroyed defences was noting strange. Now there are a lot of crime units but they all affect cities by entering them and hurting the city from there(and can be countered by law enforcement units) leaving the arsonist as an exception. maybe rename the unit to sapper(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapper) if a similar unit is desired, and make the arsonist a crime unit like the rest(with maybe a increase in flammability for cities he is in). The unit exist in the gap between the invention of walls and the first siege engines that can damage a cities walls.

The concept of a torch wielding, torch-throwing unit that sets buildings and defenses on fire is perfectly situated where it is on the tech tree and fits as a first step in the grenadier line. I think they are a bit early for using honest explosives. If we were to develop a system of explosive mishaps then it should probably have a small chance for a lot of units to have such an experience, flamethrowers, grenadiers, really anything that uses explosive weaponry can have a mishap.

I wouldn't call them anything like a crime unit. And Sappers, self-sacrificing tunnel diggers that undermine walls to collapse them, may well have a place further down the tech tree yet.

Apologies if this subject was previously covered; but can someone explain to me why there are Neanderthals (not talking about a civ AI) with two different flags (standard barb, and a black & brown)? What's the difference and/or purpose of that? Is it just to put more early game high combat/outclass value enemies? They're showing up before I even get clubmen which they still outclass by 50%.

The only neanders that would show up as barb units are probably the hidden nationality ones another civ can get from the neanderthal embassy. There's also the player neanderthal civilization, as well as the separated out NPC player neanderthals, which don't tend to get along with normal human barbarians any better than any other humans (as long as peace among NPCs is off.) There are more Neanderthal unit types, and to an extent, it IS a way to give the early game some stronger challenges at random. Faster games don't really see the benefit of this but on slower gamespeeds, a couple strong neanderthal units becomes a major event to tackle and you have enough game time to try to find ways to do so.

 

[Taxman66]

The only neanders that would show up as barb units are probably the hidden nationality ones another civ can get from the neanderthal embassy. There's also the player neanderthal civilization, as well as the separated out NPC player neanderthals, which don't tend to get along with normal human barbarians any better than any other humans (as long as peace among NPCs is off.) There are more Neanderthal unit types, and to an extent, it IS a way to give the early game some stronger challenges at random. Faster games don't really see the benefit of this but on slower gamespeeds, a couple strong neanderthal units becomes a major event to tackle and you have enough game time to try to find ways to do so.

Nope, these (both versions) were spawns. Just learned I'm the only player on a smallish landmass.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Nope, these (both versions) were spawns. Just learned I'm the only player on a smallish landmass.

Do you have Neanderthal Cities option On? The black an brown flag is the early spawns for the neanderthal city Option that if given time will spawn a neanderthal city. But mostly they harrass the bajeeber's out of your early units like wanderers. The Barbarian Neanderthal (regular barb flag) can be the original Homo neanderthal str 3 that we've seen for a long time now. Now the Black and Bown flagged neander units (N.Wanderer, N. Scout) will eventual become Neander warriors at str 4. IIRC, Sparth introduced these units. And I hope I don't have them flipped for who will actually spawn a neanderthal city with the neanderthal City Option On. Quite possible.

I tend to see more of the Blk & Brwn Flag Neanders now than the regular Homo Neanderthal Bard unit though.

If you have Peace Among NPCs On you will find both barb units and these Neander Units (blk & Brn Flg) sitting on Goody Huts together sometimes as well.

Faster games don't really see the benefit of this but on slower gamespeeds, a couple strong neanderthal units becomes a major event to tackle and you have enough game time to try to find ways to do so.

Still applies to faster games too.

 

[Taxman66]

Do you have Neanderthal Cities option On? The black an brown flag is the early spawns for the neanderthal city Option that if given time will spawn a neanderthal city. But mostly they harrass the bajeeber's out of your early units like wanderers. The Barbarian Neanderthal (regular barb flag) can be the original Homo neanderthal str 3 that we've seen for a long time now. Now the Black and Bown flagged neander units (N.Wanderer, N. Scout) will eventual become Neander warriors at str 4. IIRC, Sparth introduced these units. And I hope I don't have them flipped for who will actually spawn a neanderthal city with the neanderthal City Option On. Quite possible.

I tend to see more of the Blk & Brwn Flag Neanders now than the regular Homo Neanderthal Bard unit though.

If you have Peace Among NPCs On you will find both barb units and these Neander Units (blk & Brn Flg) sitting on Goody Huts together sometimes as well.


Still applies to faster games too.

I do not believe I have Neander cities on, will have to double check but I would not purposely have that on. I still don't see a reason for 2 different flaged Neanders. Both of them were of the original Neader graphic (i.e. the great looking unit with the ridiculous medieval pole arm) and STR 3. I'm also not too sure about how quickly they showed up. I mean I just got my very first wanderer about 5-6 tiles from my city and hadn't even gotten the clubman tech (and while ot beelining it, I was researching it early).

 

[jshetley]

He said he just d/l'd C2C after a long time not playing. So it most likely is v37 if he got it from ModDb. I didn't have the 9567 "Patch" linked yet when he 1st posted.

Plus that is an Earth Map he is playing on. His screenie is of middle Africa and as big as that is he's probably also using Pit's UEM or C2C_World. The Map is very well defined.

We just have to keep probing and hopefully keep teaching the Players to give More Details about their game and it's set up.

I'd say it has to be the regular Ver37. I have your patch and have a game going and there are WAY fewer animals on the map at least early on. I'd say that unless things change later in my game you all have the animal spawns about right. I'm also seeing more barb fighter units too which is a good thing. Their spawn rate looks about right too.

 

[Taxman66]

Just ran into a barb Hunter (3 str unit, not class) on turn 60 of a marathon speed game.

I get it, you want players to build some early combat units for defense. But come on, the tech level/str of these spawns seems a bit out of whack. My poor wanderer was trying to escort a found wise woman back home and it's like that scene from Deliverance "You look just like a hog..."

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just ran into a barb Hunter (3 str unit, not class) on turn 60 of a marathon speed game.

I get it, you want players to build some early combat units for defense. But come on, the tech level/str of these spawns seems a bit out of whack. My poor wanderer was trying to escort a found wise woman back home and it's like that scene from Deliverance "You look just like a hog..."

It might be that the dates of the spawns are now a bit further out of whack since we changed the start date?

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Taxman66,

Wanderers will just not cut it for long any more Tman. You have to be cautious about how far you go with them. You'll adjust. It's not that hard after all.

 

[Taxman66]

Joe, I know that. They never were. Usually eaten by bear or other animal. I'm just a bit shocked at the type of units coming out so early.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I mentioned neanderthal Cities Option, I have it on. I'm in the Ancient era on a C2C_World Map Epic GS. I have yet to find a neanderthal city. And come to think of it my Etarnity Test game hasn't either. But I discounted it because I'm isolated on a large Island/continent. And My older Normal Game On PM_310 I never found 1 either. I'm beginning to think they are pretty rare.

But in this Epic game I've already had battles with mini stacks (6 -10 units) of barb Obsidian sword, axe, and spear. That's been kinda fun. Bringing a worker along to build a palisade or watchtower has worked out pretty well. Especially for my Hunter and now ranger units.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If those palisade or watch towers are in unclaimed space you can demolish them after a bit and the plot will stay yours until someone's culture takes it over. This is a bug in the Super Fort merge I reported and never got round to fixing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If those palisade or watch towers are in unclaimed space you can demolish them after a bit and the plot will stay yours until someone's culture takes it over. This is a bug in the Super Fort merge I reported and never got round to fixing.

It was your report of the "bug" that really started me to using watchtowers and palisades at all.

In fact it caused me great Pain in the US MP Pbem game because I used them to claim territory and stop cultural creep/invasion. Which in turn caused the "breakpoint" in relations that precipitated a full blown invasion that was just waiting for the right time.

The AI is very adept at using them now on a regular basis.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Lol...was just a good excuse. I was going to invade as soon as my army was ready and in position either way.

It did adjust how I had to prepare to invade tho.

 

[Taxman66]

In my opinion I'm finding that the early barb and neanderthal units are appearing before the player has reached a tech level to be able to compete with them. Clubmen and spiked clubmen just cant deal with 4 str neanders or 3 str barb slingers or even 4 str stone axemen/macemen. This also seems to apply to naval units having rafts to deal with war canoes.

If you turtle up and make it a bit farther into the game (and are lucky enough to have obsidian access) you can branch out a bit then. Otherwise expect to loose 2-3 for 1 unit exchanges dislodging them with your own stone axemen.

Secondary question:
What purpose do barb/neander scouts serve? They cant attack, don't seem to work in conjunction with other barb/neander units. If you can corner them they're woth some xp I guess. I just don't see much reason for them. In similar light barb/neander hunters only function seems to deny access to animals. Something the predators and opponent AI already do very well.

 

[Noriad2]

@Taxman66: considering that animals and Neanderthals existed long before Homo Sapiens, the fact that you start the map empty of animals and Neanderthals is already a concession to playability.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In my opinion I'm finding that the early barb and neanderthal units are appearing before the player has reached a tech level to be able to compete with them. Clubmen and spiked clubmen just cant deal with 4 str neanders or 3 str barb slingers or even 4 str stone axemen/macemen. This also seems to apply to naval units having rafts to deal with war canoes.

If you turtle up and make it a bit farther into the game (and are lucky enough to have obsidian access) you can branch out a bit then. Otherwise expect to loose 2-3 for 1 unit exchanges dislodging them with your own stone axemen.

Secondary question:
What purpose do barb/neander scouts serve? They cant attack, don't seem to work in conjunction with other barb/neander units. If you can corner them they're woth some xp I guess. I just don't see much reason for them. In similar light barb/neander hunters only function seems to deny access to animals. Something the predators and opponent AI already do very well.

1) On the defense, I completely disagree that Spiked Clubmen, which can be pretty quick to be unlocked, are unable to address those noted units. Use terrain defense to your benefit, then after a battle or two you can start taking promos for anti-barbs and then you're able to use the fact that you're civilized to make the barbs rather easy to take out. You can often double up your war and hunting parties to help with events where you run across more than one or end up with a wounded trying to heal in the field.

2) As for attacks, you've gotta make sure your attackers are promoted properly and then you can pretty quickly overcome even the best defended positions by powerful barb units.

3) The purpose of variety is to vary the experiences you have in the wild. Barbarian and neanderthal scouts are out there because they would be. And yes, they can be white rabbits you can end up chasing for a while, sometimes into danger. And if you feel that barb/neander hunters only function is to deny access to animals, then they're doing it well I'm sure. The whole point of proliferating the wild in general is to make it so that it's not a one-dimensional experience out there, that there's no one-approach fits all unit deployment strategies, which is probably, if I'm not mistaken, the big thing we're actually complaining about here, is it not? You can't send out a hunter and expect him to survive on his own. You can't even send out a spiked clubman and expect him to survive on his own. If someone can figure out for themselves a perfect deployment strategy, then great! But it shouldn't be easy to determine what that would be.

Also, if you're playing without Fight or Flight or Size Matters, some of it may not seem like it has quite the point it displays when those options are on. Scouts, for example, are very hard to dispatch for their XP if you don't have a unit with decent pursuit going after them.