futurehermit
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^^^You work in bursts switching in and out of slavery/caste system. That is why spiritual is so good with a FE.
CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment Part II
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Lately acidsatyr has taken to calling a CE 'linear' and a SE 'nonlinear'. I don't think those are the best terms for the idea he's trying to express. I would submit that a CE is 'continuous' (your research advances incrementally each turn), whereas a SE is 'punctuated' (on some turns, your research abruptly jumps far ahead due to a lightbulb).
In fact, both economies are quite nonlinear but in different directions. A CE starts slowly and accelerates throughout the game (more cottages are worked by more larger cities, but also cottages mature and civics and PP come online). Computers typically take me 5 turns to research with a mature CE, much less time than a 'smaller' tech like Philosophy. A SE starts fast (two scientists for 17 turns return over 1625 beakers if you get full lightbulb value), but then slows dramatically as each GS takes more input for the same output. Computers take forever, but you got Philosophy in very little time.
peace,
lilnev
In fact, both economies are quite nonlinear but in different directions. A CE starts slowly and accelerates throughout the game (more cottages are worked by more larger cities, but also cottages mature and civics and PP come online). Computers typically take me 5 turns to research with a mature CE, much less time than a 'smaller' tech like Philosophy. A SE starts fast (two scientists for 17 turns return over 1625 beakers if you get full lightbulb value), but then slows dramatically as each GS takes more input for the same output. Computers take forever, but you got Philosophy in very little time.
peace,
lilnev
futurehermit
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Well Gandhi is the creme de la creme of the FE. That's not to say he's the only one capable of running it.
EDIT: For example, I'm thinking of trying it out with Rome thanks to their UB. With their UU you can take a lot of land early thus being able to run lots of specialists and with their UB you'll be getting more GSs which you can convert into beakers.
EDIT2: The fact that the SE starts strong but tapers off (imo) and that the CE starts weak but grows strong illustrates to me that the best game might be one where you combine the two using serfdom and/or hagia sophia to transition from FE to CE post-democracy. Thoughts?
I'm reaching the conclusion that a SE->CE or hybrid->CE switch may be the strongest overall, unless your plan is to just win before it matters. I've never been a fan of Serfdom/Hagia, since it's so easy to just build (or capture) a few more workers. 12 workers = 3 stacks of 4 = 30 cottages in 10 turns. Maybe if you were Spiritual, or making another civics change anyway so there was no extra anarchy, then Serfdom would be worth it. You probably won't be whipping anyway because you'll want your cities to grow to full size.
peace,
lilnev
acidsatyr
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I agree. Continuous is probably better wording than linear.
However i dont agree with second part of your post. Cottages start slow then accelerate, so under normal circumstances its like exp function, or something like that... SE looks like a wave, that is it starts faster then cottages (due to lighbulbing), then stagnates, then jumps again with rep/bio. and continues in same fashioin like CE (by the time u reach computers you dontlighbulb you use caste system and scientists, so it doesnt take forever to research in fact takes as much as CE).
Personally is still believe hardcore FE is the way to go because of its superior production (and bcof FE, se must follow).
futurehermit
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hey acid, what do you do with your GSs late game?
futurehermit
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k thks a lot
Wodan
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I've done this quite a few times. It's hardly as difficult as some people will make it out to be, if you bandy the idea about. I think many people have Slavery on the brain and thus "look down" on Serfdom and other labor civics. In any event, Hagia of course helps, but isn't necessary.
The best timing to do this is usually a bit before you get Emancipation. What I do is send a bunch of workers to the first city I want to convert. Start changing farms to cottages. The city will slow down on growth, then stop and go into the red. Have a few workers change mines to windmills, if that's your druther, otherwise leave them mines. I usually calculate the food such that it will come out "even" (so that there isn't an odd 1 food left over to eventually cause starvation), which means mostly windmills with maybe 1 mine. But, regardless, that's when you go in and un-force the specialists (probably scientists). The city will balance out at the new food / citizen levels. Move the workers on to the next city.
-- It's also a good idea to "convert" cities just after they produce a GP. They almost certainly won't produce another one, so any GPP is wasted.Wodan
futurehermit
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Interesting, I never thought about doing one city at a time, that is a good idea that I will implement. I'm thinking that I will try to transition once i hit liberalism/nationalism and then will beeline for democracy. My military prowess will take a hit for a few centuries in terms of lacking gunpowder units, but will probably recoup once the cottages start to thrive (hopefully getting modern armor sooner than competitors).
Of course this assumes that I don't think I can win before tech becomes an issue...
Of course this assumes that I don't think I can win before tech becomes an issue...
Mr. Civtastic
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Nice. This sounds perfect when you are running a gp farm and that random city pops the first and last gp it will ever produce.
Wodan
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Right... it also has good synergy with my own tactic of starting to run specialists (usually scientists) early, before the city reaches the cap. We had some debates in the slavery threads about the benefits of running them early, or leaving the city to max food. Personally, I like to start early, because it gives me beakers early, and more importantly, GPP early. Yes, this slows down city growth, and it also hampers the whipping I can do.
But... consider the alternative. Running slavery as soon as BW is obtained and whipping my early cities for the required Libraries (plus other stuff). Then, running serfdom. So, my whipping is not "hampered" because I'm not running slavery anyway... don't need or want to whip because I want as many cities running 2 scientists as possible. This also allows me to waste less time by producing fewer workers. I can max pretty much all my cities with 2 scientists each, with leftover food being used to work mines. As each city makes a Great Scientist, I convert it to a CE city. As Emancipation arrives I'm 80-90% converted. (Perhaps I have a GP farm left, plus a few production cities.) Serfdom is abandoned for Emancipation.
It's kind of elegant, actually. It takes all the advantages of early SE plus late CE. I believe it's the best economic plan for a space or diplomatic win.
Wodan
A question to anyone who plays a SE regularly:
How many GPs pop you in cities which are not your best two research cities at the point you pop the GP?
I would assume not more than three GP in a whole Game. So it is no point where you get your research from as long as you pop enough GP to use them to lightbulb techs. I.e. in acidsatyrs immortal game he get the majority of his GPs out of Dehli, Bombay and Cuzco, the cities which have the highest scienceoutput at that moment, if I observed correctly.
How many GPs pop you in cities which are not your best two research cities at the point you pop the GP?
I would assume not more than three GP in a whole Game. So it is no point where you get your research from as long as you pop enough GP to use them to lightbulb techs. I.e. in acidsatyrs immortal game he get the majority of his GPs out of Dehli, Bombay and Cuzco, the cities which have the highest scienceoutput at that moment, if I observed correctly.
I think that game right now i have 4/5 cities producing at least 60 GP points per turn. My 'GP farm' if you will is pumping out i think 120 per turn.
And how many GPs did you get from which city. The GPPs do not matter in this concern because you can have cities, which are can produce 50 GPP, but never pop a GP because they are always outrun by another city.
Hmmm im not sure of the way to check, but i know fairly regular as i had 3 scientists lying about at one point in different cities.
What I mean is: Would you generate much less GP, when you run just one or two GP-Farms instead of empire wide specialist use?
Many people say, that the edge FE has over CE in terms of science comes from the lightbulbing but it seems that a CE is as well able to lightbulb as heavy as a FE does.
Many people say, that the edge FE has over CE in terms of science comes from the lightbulbing but it seems that a CE is as well able to lightbulb as heavy as a FE does.
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