Wodan
Deity
This thread will be the arena for a comparison between a non-Pyramids/non-Philosophical SE (Specialist Economy) and a non-Financial CE (Cottage Economy).
The basic idea is to play a CE game and a SE game on the exact same map & settings, with a small effort to compile logs so a comparison may be done at the end.
As many people as care to donate their time and intellect are welcome to participate. However, there will be post-test analysis, which will eventually become the second post in this thread. In order to participate in the test, please view the next post to see if the test is still going on.
Definitions
A CE (Cottage Economy) is based upon using cottage cities as the primary source of a civ’s research, and having the research slider at as high a percentage as possible.
-- A cottage city is one with as many cottages as food will permit.
-- Some cottage cities start with a farm or two to grow population faster, but those farms are usually later changed to cottages.
-- (A CE is not prohibited from running some specialists to get GP of a specific type, and frequently does.)
A SE (Specialist Economy) is based upon using science specialists as the primary source of a civ’s research. Farms are used in most cities to provide the food needed to support the specialists.
-- Some SEs run the research slider at a high level, to increase research by what commerce is coming in. Other SEs run the research slider at a lower level, to supplement gold or culture (happiness); this is not as much of a negative for a SE as a CE because the primary source of research from specialists is not affected by the research slider.
It may be counter-intuitive that an economy is defined in terms of research. This is because of several reasons. One is that research is so critical to gameplay, while money (gold) is a necessary evil in many respects (primarily maintenance). Two is that there are very few alternate sources of research (e.g,. Great Library) while alternate sources of gold are more plentiful (e.g., religion shrines).
Background
The inspiration for this test came about during discussion comparing the relative benefits of CE and SE. There are many possible situations where a comparison might be relevant:
-- prior to Liberalism/Democracy with Pyramids
-- prior to Liberalism/Democracy without Pyramids
-- after Liberalism/Democracy
-- modern era with many new cities by conquest
-- with or without Financial
While straightforward to simply compare CE commerce income to SE research income, this does not take into account many other factors. It was therefore decided to perform a live test, logging several different measures of civ performance, to get a real baseline. This baseline could then be used to evaluate how a CE or SE will perform with different game parameters (e.g., different size map or different skill level).
Each tester will play two games with the same game start. One game will be done using a CE, and the other game will be done using a SE. Testers will need to use the same play style for both of their games (e.g., if you want to play a "builder" game then do it for both your CE and your SE games; don't play "builder" in one and "warmonger" in the other). It should be kept in mind that comparisons will be made between the two games for each player, but not between players, except in a general sense.
Baseline Parameters
The parameters which were chosen are:
-- Warlords v.2.0.0.0.
-- Continents
-- Temperate climate
-- Medium sea level
-- Standard world size
-- Shaka as leader
-- Prince difficulty level
-- Normal game speed
(Some testers may voluntarily choose to modify one or at most two of these parameters, at their option, to provide additional data points. The two founding testers (Wodan and MrCynical), however, will strictly adhere to them.)
Each of these parameters could be argued and has its own pros and cons. Without going into extensive divergent details, these are simply the ones that were chosen.
It is encouraged to view each parameter as simply the baseline from which to start an analysis and discussion, rather than as an excuse to ignore the test results.
Test Setup and Logging
Each tester is to create a new game using the parameters as given, and then will play out that game twice. 20 turns will be played as CE and saved, the previous SE save will be loaded, then 20 turns will be played as SE and saved, and so on.
The tester should store the following every 20 turns:
-- Game save, named “Player AD-XXXX CE” or “Player AD-XXXX SE” (e.g., “MrCynical BC-0200 CE”
-- A simple Excel file (link), named “Player CE vs SE Comparison” with a new row listing current civ-wide demographics (see below).
In addition, a game plan (text file) will be composed. This will be a SHORT description of that player’s starting thoughts and goals for both games. This game plan should be supplemented periodically, with modifying thoughts based on game progression.
Finally, a cumulative game log (text file) will be kept, listing any of the following events as they occur by the civ (don’t list things accomplished by AI civs):
-- whip hammers (list the # of hammers and the city)
-- wonder completion
-- civic change
-- declaration of war by or against the civ
-- tech researched
-- religion change
-- shrine being built
-- GP (great person) disposition: settling, lightbulbing, etc.
The Excel file will store the following:
-- Commerce percentage for research (available from F2 Financial Advisor), allocation to research, percentage for culture, allocation to culture, percentage for gold, allocation to gold
-- Income from taxes, net foreign income (F2)
-- Expenses: unit cost, unit supply, city maintenance, civic upkeep, inflation, total expenses (F2)
-- Civics: government, legal, labor, economy, religion (F3)
-- Demographics: GNP, production, crop yield, population (F9)
-- From the game log: Whipped hammers, GP (Great People) Generated
Game Start
To make things easier, the very early game can be just one set of logs and saves. There is going to be a point where the player makes a conscious decision to perform the first action to become either a CE or a SE. This might be as simple as clicking on a worker action.
Up to that point, the player should keep just one set of logs and saves. They should be named “Player AD-XXXX” and so on.
As soon as the decision point is reached (which will come soon for some players, later for others), the dual saves and logs should be started.
As a side benefit, the vagaries of hut-popping will thus be the same for both games, since most huts will be gone by the time the decision point is reached.
Gameplay Guidelines and Restrictions
The two games by each tester should parallel each other as much as possible, except for decisions based upon the CE or SE situation. For example, if building up and declaring an early war, it should be done for both the CE and SE games. (To contrast, it makes sense to prioritize Civil Service for the SE game to gain the irrigation benefit.) Tech research paths should thus parallel each other as much as possible.
Wonders should be avoided where they will have a big impact on gameplay, unless the wonder is able to be achieved by both the CE and SE games. Some wonders, such as Chichen Itza, don’t have a big impact on gameplay but might be beneficial for GPP points or such. Others, such as Hagia Sophia, do have a big impact; even though not directly related to the question of CE vs SE, if one of the games has the wonder while the other does not, then this could skew the results. This situation should be avoided.
Furthermore, esoteric strategies should be avoided, such as Globe Theatre high-frequency whipping/drafting. While they won’t bias the test per se, they are beyond the norm and will place the test outside the area of a “typical game”. The goal is to have the test as baseline as possible, to facilitate each player comparing the test to his or her own playing style or goals in a particular game.
Play style should be kept the same between the two games for a player. If doing a “relaxed, builder game” for the SE, that should be done for the CE as well.
In addition, the following general restrictions should be considered to be in force:
-- Both CE and SE games may have any number of “production cities” (cities with little to no commerce generation and/or specialists).
-- CE should have a minimum of 50% cottage cities within the “core empire”. The core empire can be considered roughly all cities built or captured before Liberalism/Democracy.
-- CE may not manually assign specialists in the core empire, with the following exceptions: “free” specialists (e.g., Mercantilism), when population surpasses size 21 (because specialists are the only option), if using citizen automation (see below), in a “GP Farm”, or before the 2nd GP of the game is generated in at most two cities (with the goal to spawn an early GP of a specific type).
-- If CE is using citizen automation, specialists are permitted but no “forced” specialists are allowed; however, note that the citizen automation feature often assigns a specialist that may not be desirable to the CE player.
-- CE may have a “GP Farm”, including all farms, running caste system and/or assignment of science specialists, as desired.
-- SE may have up to 25% commerce cities in the core empire, including cottage usage in those cities. Common sense should rule and specialist cities should always be run in preference to commerce cities, except for possibly the capitol (because of Bureaucracy) and/or a super-commerce city (perhaps because terrain restrictions forced cottages as the best option for that city).
-- SE should have a minimum of 35% specialist cities in the core empire with farms and no cottages.
-- For both CE and SE, cities captured after Liberalism/Democracy (i.e., not in the core empire, by definition) may either be transformed or kept as is (in effect changing the CE or SE to a hybrid economy).
-- At no time may WorldBuilder be loaded.
-- Reloading to return to an earlier point of the game (to undo some outcome) is not permitted.
To a large extent, this test is “on your honor.” Players should adhere to the spirit of the program. This test has not been exhaustively set up, and therefore it is likely that one or more gameplay loopholes exist. However, any kind of shady behavior or rules lawyering to find a loophole will surely be discovered, invalidating the test and all effort that went into it. There are no winners or losers here, and it is expected that all testers behave as adults and stand up to the challenge, as well as the possibility of having previous beliefs proved to compare unfavorably. In fact, the honorable thing to do would be to point out the potential loophole as soon as it is discovered, so that honest discussion may take place along with possible corrective measures.
The “SE -> CE” Switch
One or more testers may opt to do a switch from an pre-Liberalism/Democracy SE to a CE. This is optional. If done, this should be a third game tracked in the same way as the other two. Logs, etc. should begin on whatever turn there is a decision point, and saved games should begin at that time.
Critique
As mentioned, post-test analysis will be done primarily between each tester’s CE and SE games. Comparisons between testers will be in a general sense and avoid the trap of comparing play styles. Play style will not be critiqued, nor should it, except in observation of how it impacted the comparison of CE vs SE.
The basic idea is to play a CE game and a SE game on the exact same map & settings, with a small effort to compile logs so a comparison may be done at the end.
As many people as care to donate their time and intellect are welcome to participate. However, there will be post-test analysis, which will eventually become the second post in this thread. In order to participate in the test, please view the next post to see if the test is still going on.
Definitions
A CE (Cottage Economy) is based upon using cottage cities as the primary source of a civ’s research, and having the research slider at as high a percentage as possible.
-- A cottage city is one with as many cottages as food will permit.
-- Some cottage cities start with a farm or two to grow population faster, but those farms are usually later changed to cottages.
-- (A CE is not prohibited from running some specialists to get GP of a specific type, and frequently does.)
A SE (Specialist Economy) is based upon using science specialists as the primary source of a civ’s research. Farms are used in most cities to provide the food needed to support the specialists.
-- Some SEs run the research slider at a high level, to increase research by what commerce is coming in. Other SEs run the research slider at a lower level, to supplement gold or culture (happiness); this is not as much of a negative for a SE as a CE because the primary source of research from specialists is not affected by the research slider.
It may be counter-intuitive that an economy is defined in terms of research. This is because of several reasons. One is that research is so critical to gameplay, while money (gold) is a necessary evil in many respects (primarily maintenance). Two is that there are very few alternate sources of research (e.g,. Great Library) while alternate sources of gold are more plentiful (e.g., religion shrines).
Background
The inspiration for this test came about during discussion comparing the relative benefits of CE and SE. There are many possible situations where a comparison might be relevant:
-- prior to Liberalism/Democracy with Pyramids
-- prior to Liberalism/Democracy without Pyramids
-- after Liberalism/Democracy
-- modern era with many new cities by conquest
-- with or without Financial
While straightforward to simply compare CE commerce income to SE research income, this does not take into account many other factors. It was therefore decided to perform a live test, logging several different measures of civ performance, to get a real baseline. This baseline could then be used to evaluate how a CE or SE will perform with different game parameters (e.g., different size map or different skill level).
Each tester will play two games with the same game start. One game will be done using a CE, and the other game will be done using a SE. Testers will need to use the same play style for both of their games (e.g., if you want to play a "builder" game then do it for both your CE and your SE games; don't play "builder" in one and "warmonger" in the other). It should be kept in mind that comparisons will be made between the two games for each player, but not between players, except in a general sense.
Baseline Parameters
The parameters which were chosen are:
-- Warlords v.2.0.0.0.
-- Continents
-- Temperate climate
-- Medium sea level
-- Standard world size
-- Shaka as leader
-- Prince difficulty level
-- Normal game speed
(Some testers may voluntarily choose to modify one or at most two of these parameters, at their option, to provide additional data points. The two founding testers (Wodan and MrCynical), however, will strictly adhere to them.)
Each of these parameters could be argued and has its own pros and cons. Without going into extensive divergent details, these are simply the ones that were chosen.
It is encouraged to view each parameter as simply the baseline from which to start an analysis and discussion, rather than as an excuse to ignore the test results.
Test Setup and Logging
Each tester is to create a new game using the parameters as given, and then will play out that game twice. 20 turns will be played as CE and saved, the previous SE save will be loaded, then 20 turns will be played as SE and saved, and so on.
The tester should store the following every 20 turns:
-- Game save, named “Player AD-XXXX CE” or “Player AD-XXXX SE” (e.g., “MrCynical BC-0200 CE”
-- A simple Excel file (link), named “Player CE vs SE Comparison” with a new row listing current civ-wide demographics (see below).
In addition, a game plan (text file) will be composed. This will be a SHORT description of that player’s starting thoughts and goals for both games. This game plan should be supplemented periodically, with modifying thoughts based on game progression.
Finally, a cumulative game log (text file) will be kept, listing any of the following events as they occur by the civ (don’t list things accomplished by AI civs):
-- whip hammers (list the # of hammers and the city)
-- wonder completion
-- civic change
-- declaration of war by or against the civ
-- tech researched
-- religion change
-- shrine being built
-- GP (great person) disposition: settling, lightbulbing, etc.
The Excel file will store the following:
-- Commerce percentage for research (available from F2 Financial Advisor), allocation to research, percentage for culture, allocation to culture, percentage for gold, allocation to gold
-- Income from taxes, net foreign income (F2)
-- Expenses: unit cost, unit supply, city maintenance, civic upkeep, inflation, total expenses (F2)
-- Civics: government, legal, labor, economy, religion (F3)
-- Demographics: GNP, production, crop yield, population (F9)
-- From the game log: Whipped hammers, GP (Great People) Generated
Game Start
To make things easier, the very early game can be just one set of logs and saves. There is going to be a point where the player makes a conscious decision to perform the first action to become either a CE or a SE. This might be as simple as clicking on a worker action.
Up to that point, the player should keep just one set of logs and saves. They should be named “Player AD-XXXX” and so on.
As soon as the decision point is reached (which will come soon for some players, later for others), the dual saves and logs should be started.
As a side benefit, the vagaries of hut-popping will thus be the same for both games, since most huts will be gone by the time the decision point is reached.
Gameplay Guidelines and Restrictions
The two games by each tester should parallel each other as much as possible, except for decisions based upon the CE or SE situation. For example, if building up and declaring an early war, it should be done for both the CE and SE games. (To contrast, it makes sense to prioritize Civil Service for the SE game to gain the irrigation benefit.) Tech research paths should thus parallel each other as much as possible.
Wonders should be avoided where they will have a big impact on gameplay, unless the wonder is able to be achieved by both the CE and SE games. Some wonders, such as Chichen Itza, don’t have a big impact on gameplay but might be beneficial for GPP points or such. Others, such as Hagia Sophia, do have a big impact; even though not directly related to the question of CE vs SE, if one of the games has the wonder while the other does not, then this could skew the results. This situation should be avoided.
Furthermore, esoteric strategies should be avoided, such as Globe Theatre high-frequency whipping/drafting. While they won’t bias the test per se, they are beyond the norm and will place the test outside the area of a “typical game”. The goal is to have the test as baseline as possible, to facilitate each player comparing the test to his or her own playing style or goals in a particular game.
Play style should be kept the same between the two games for a player. If doing a “relaxed, builder game” for the SE, that should be done for the CE as well.
In addition, the following general restrictions should be considered to be in force:
-- Both CE and SE games may have any number of “production cities” (cities with little to no commerce generation and/or specialists).
-- CE should have a minimum of 50% cottage cities within the “core empire”. The core empire can be considered roughly all cities built or captured before Liberalism/Democracy.
-- CE may not manually assign specialists in the core empire, with the following exceptions: “free” specialists (e.g., Mercantilism), when population surpasses size 21 (because specialists are the only option), if using citizen automation (see below), in a “GP Farm”, or before the 2nd GP of the game is generated in at most two cities (with the goal to spawn an early GP of a specific type).
-- If CE is using citizen automation, specialists are permitted but no “forced” specialists are allowed; however, note that the citizen automation feature often assigns a specialist that may not be desirable to the CE player.
-- CE may have a “GP Farm”, including all farms, running caste system and/or assignment of science specialists, as desired.
-- SE may have up to 25% commerce cities in the core empire, including cottage usage in those cities. Common sense should rule and specialist cities should always be run in preference to commerce cities, except for possibly the capitol (because of Bureaucracy) and/or a super-commerce city (perhaps because terrain restrictions forced cottages as the best option for that city).
-- SE should have a minimum of 35% specialist cities in the core empire with farms and no cottages.
-- For both CE and SE, cities captured after Liberalism/Democracy (i.e., not in the core empire, by definition) may either be transformed or kept as is (in effect changing the CE or SE to a hybrid economy).
-- At no time may WorldBuilder be loaded.
-- Reloading to return to an earlier point of the game (to undo some outcome) is not permitted.
To a large extent, this test is “on your honor.” Players should adhere to the spirit of the program. This test has not been exhaustively set up, and therefore it is likely that one or more gameplay loopholes exist. However, any kind of shady behavior or rules lawyering to find a loophole will surely be discovered, invalidating the test and all effort that went into it. There are no winners or losers here, and it is expected that all testers behave as adults and stand up to the challenge, as well as the possibility of having previous beliefs proved to compare unfavorably. In fact, the honorable thing to do would be to point out the potential loophole as soon as it is discovered, so that honest discussion may take place along with possible corrective measures.
The “SE -> CE” Switch
One or more testers may opt to do a switch from an pre-Liberalism/Democracy SE to a CE. This is optional. If done, this should be a third game tracked in the same way as the other two. Logs, etc. should begin on whatever turn there is a decision point, and saved games should begin at that time.
Critique
As mentioned, post-test analysis will be done primarily between each tester’s CE and SE games. Comparisons between testers will be in a general sense and avoid the trap of comparing play styles. Play style will not be critiqued, nor should it, except in observation of how it impacted the comparison of CE vs SE.
