CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment!

[Qwack]

This is my view:

Pure SE is constituted by getting the majority of your beakers from scientist specialists and lightbulbs. 35% of your cities with cottages is nowhere near a pure SE, and I agree with acid that this is a hybrid. An early CS slingshot can get you 75 beakers per turn rather easily in the BC era, especially on prince difficulty. So lets say you have 4 cities, you pull off a CS slingshot, run max cottages in your capital, and scientists in other 3 cities. You are pushing out 75 beakers from you capital with the cottages and 25 from your 3 specialist cities. Im sorry but this is simply not a pure SE, more like a CE with some specialists .

The only cottages I would allow for a pure specialist economy are those which you build for gold(for upkeep and stuff like that), not beakers. This doesnt mean you should get 0 beakers from cottages, but once you start building cottagtes for beakers, you are no longer a Specialist economy. I think using common sense here is better than making strict guidelines.

 

[Gunner Jones]

@slowcar - could you point me in the right direction? I can't find in the SG sub-forum. Could always be going mad though.

Gunner.

 

[Mutineer]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178607

If you search you will find emperor and monarch game and separate discussion treads.
If you read them you will get idea about how to run such economy.

 

[Wodan]

This is my view:

Pure SE is constituted by getting the majority of your beakers from scientist specialists and lightbulbs. 35% of your cities with cottages is nowhere near a pure SE, and I agree with acid that this is a hybrid. An early CS slingshot can get you 75 beakers per turn rather easily in the BC era, especially on prince difficulty. So lets say you have 4 cities, you pull off a CS slingshot, run max cottages in your capital, and scientists in other 3 cities. You are pushing out 75 beakers from you capital with the cottages and 25 from your 3 specialist cities. Im sorry but this is simply not a pure SE, more like a CE with some specialists .

The only cottages I would allow for a pure specialist economy are those which you build for gold(for upkeep and stuff like that), not beakers. This doesnt mean you should get 0 beakers from cottages, but once you start building cottagtes for beakers, you are no longer a Specialist economy. I think using common sense here is better than making strict guidelines.

I agree with everything you said.

However, I also think if someone is buiding cottages in a SE for the purpose of getting science, not cash, then this is because of terrain restrictions (because farms are not an option, and there's no food). For the moment, I'm going to leave aside the capitol (because of Bureaucracy) and a possible super-commerce city (wall street etc.).

I think part of playing any game is spotting your cities. Terrain is the biggest part of that selection. When running a SE, you need to be looking for rivers, lakes, floodplains, and food resources. When running a CE, you need to be looking for grass, floodplains, and food. (Both can have some production cities of course.)

If a player is running (or intends to run) a SE and spots a city on terrain poorly suited to running specialists but capable of running cottages, and does not have the option of making that a production city until civil service (spread of irrigation), then I think that player is doing a "forced fit". It would have been better to save founding that city until last, by which time hopefully civil service is available. But, maybe that WAS the last city she founded, and maybe there wasn't really any good options to be a production city (maybe it was 100% grass). In those circumstances, I think the player should make the best of the situation and build cottages, and I wouldn't blame the player for it.

Keep in mind that many SEs run the research slider at low values, so this whole situation is moot. Any cities with cottages are adding gold, not science.

For those few SEs which run the slider at high research (as a "cherry" on top of the SE sundae), you do have a point that it might be possible to have more research income from cottages than from scientists. Back to your example, say that city is working 10 hamlets. That's 20 commerce. Add Library, and assume running at 70% research. 25 * 0.7 = 17.5.

Meanwhile, let's say the other 3 cities have 2 scientists each = 3 * 2 * 3 research = 18. Add Libraries = 22.5 research. So, the scientists are adding more.

Say the city is working 10 villages. That's 30 * 1.25 * .7 = 26.25. So, somewhere in between is where that city starts to generate more research than the 6 scientists. On the other hand, by the time you have size 10 cities you're going to be getting close to getting Representation (which would be a priority for any SE which didn't have Pyramids).

I think your best suggestion is that common sense has to rule.

Wodan

 

[CivScientist]

It seems that with a SE you have more freedom to be a beligerant warmonger, especially in multiplayer games where you are more likely to get attacked. A CE is somewhat sensitive to pillaging, especially later in the game when you have less time to rebuilt your lost cottages. Thus, I would imagine that paying with a CE might influence one to be more diplomatic to protect their own. This is of course my opiniong, however, and I don't know of what research has been done on the actual truth of this assertion lately.

My question is: when you all are playing this experiment game, are you taking into account your sensitivity to attack in how beligerant you are to your neighbors or are you using your same level of aggressiveness regardless of your economy? By enacting the rule where "play style should be kept the same between the two games for a player," are you perhaps handicapping the advantages of one of the economies simply because you happen to be more of a builder or warmonter? Also, I wonder if there might be some use in trying this experiment in a multiplayer format where the fear of getting attacked is real.

One suggestion I would make as well: it might be useful to collect other information about each player beyond the results from the game. This information could include playing style, experience with either of the two economies, etc. This might help make sense of the results we get and perhaps uncover any confounding variables we didn't anticipate. If anything, it might be intersting to see how each economy fairs in comparison to a player's level of aggressiveness.

 

[Wodan]

Guys I am having a blast playing this. More of you should give it a try.

I can already see ways to improve my own game in general. (By that I mean my gameplay for ALL games, not just here in the test.) Nothing like trying to min/max left and right, plus having a direct competitor, to show you where you can do better.

Found myself building a market in a SE city, and asked myself, "what the heck are you doing that for?" I don't even have any furs or something like that to blame it on. Also, looking back, I built the hanging gardens because I figured I would need it, and yes I will, but not for a long time. I have 4 different health resources. I need happy help more. Speaking of, I need to get Monarchy and switch to Hereditary rule. As soon as I do that, my SE will start to take off. Happiness is an issue at the moment. I'm doing a poor job of tech research path selection.

My CE is doing really well. It's interesting, though... because I sent my SE to prioritize civil service but wasn't able to slingshot (very difficult to slingshot as Shaka so I didn't even try), my CE was able to instead get BOTH confucianism and taoism. On the other hand, my CE is lagging behind in research and even more in infrastructure (buildings). That is to be expected, though, at this stage of the game. (It's about 800 AD.)

In any event, it'll be very interesting how it comes out.

By far the best advice I could give is to do a 50 turn survey. That is, every 50 turns, sit back and take a look at your civ. How much happiness is available? Should a priority be given to research a tech that provides some kind of happiness benefit (plantations, theatres, etc)? Ditto for health. What about military? How's the power graph look?

Anyway just some thoughts.

Wodan

ps Another interesting thing is that I'm on an isolated continent. No contact whatsoever.

 

[kniteowl]

I just realized LOL

Shaka is Agg/Exp since the SE depends on Both Health and Happiness unlike the CE where you ONLY have to worry about your Happy Cap. Did you purposely give the SE a SLIGHT Advantage? Because I remember in most of my games I'd generally worry about health more then Happiness because I Don't always play as Peter, and my Happiness Cap was generally higher then my Health Cap. This game is alot differnt now that I worry more about Happiness in my cities. That and Health builldings like ganary and Habours are MUCH CHEAPER LOL

 

[acidsatyr]

Actually, it’s the CE that benefits here but whatever.

Why on earth would you ever do that? I can't imagine a game where the optimal path would include NEVER building a single cottage. I personally would define a pure SE as where all RESEARCH comes from specialists, and the gold needed to run the empire comes from commerce, and specialists if needed.

First of all, I didn’t say you should never build cottages, I said there are some cases where you should, but only much later in the game. Read my post again.
Second, in my personal experience, optimal path in the early stages of a game, (pre CoL or even pre Civil Service) shouldn’t include building cottages. The reason behind this is that early game favors working resources, rather than building cottages. You don’t have time or need to build cottages this early, whether or not you’re going for CE or SE later on.

So you never work a river tile that has a farm on it? What do you do about food resources next to a river? Do they get a cottage too? And I guess you never work any plantations or horse or ivory tiles either? No gold, silver, or gem mines? And certainly no water tiles -- ever.

What I meant to say with that, when I was contrasting CE and SE, is that research and commerce in CE comes from cottages only, and never from specialists. The amount of beakers you get from GP farm in CE is nothing when compared to what you get from cottages. Of course you will work your resources and get commerce from other tile improvements, and build farms, I think this is rather obvious – but whatever.

If "pure" means completely unrealistic utopian ideal, then I agree with you. Otherwise, I think you're being ridiculous.

It is not unrealistic utopian ideal, it’s the only way I actually play now, however most of the time the civ I choose is philosophical, which I think is of major importance when playing like this.

That really is an extreme version. Have you done any write-ups of games you have played this way? In particullar I wonder how you reaserch writing without cottages.

I just finished playing this way on immortal with Shaka with success. I was too lazy to write down any info and am certainly too lazy to do this game again with cottages. And I don’t understand your question. Do you actually get in such a deficit that you have to have cottages even to research something trivial like writing? I have 3 cities max before CoL. Anything beyond that is overkill, I think that’s why people really on cottages that early, they spawn 8 cities early thinking space is power. Space isn’t power that early in the game.

 

[Samson]

I just finished playing this way on immortal with Shaka with success. I was too lazy to write down any info and am certainly too lazy to do this game again with cottages. And I don’t understand your question. Do you actually get in such a deficit that you have to have cottages even to research something trivial like writing? I have 3 cities max before CoL. Anything beyond that is overkill, I think that’s why people really on cottages that early, they spawn 8 cities early thinking space is power. Space isn’t power that early in the game.

Actually I do, esp. on lower levels. Perhaps it is a weakness in my game, but I do OK in the GOTM. I reakon it is much easier to get space with settlers early than with war later. Each to his own.

 

[Phrederick]

First of all, I didn’t say you should never build cottages, I said there are some cases where you should, but only much later in the game. Read my post again.

Pure SE should never have any cottages. Ever.

Both commerce and research should come from specialist in this economy, never from cottage, absolutely never in the early game (pre civil service for example), and ONLY later in the game in special cases. In pure SE cottages are never built by player UNLESS later in the game you capture a city which has most tiles covered with mature cottages, and is detrimental for player to turn them back into farms.

I interpret this as saying that you feel that a pure SE should never build cottages, but should keep developed cottages in captured territory.

Second, in my personal experience, optimal path in the early stages of a game, (pre CoL or even pre Civil Service) shouldn’t include building cottages. The reason behind this is that early game favors working resources, rather than building cottages. You don’t have time or need to build cottages this early, whether or not you’re going for CE or SE later on.

I agree that pre CoL, cottages don't have a huge effect, if any. The only time I really build them early is when my capitol or second city is on floodplains. Whether cottages have an effect before CoL or CS is somewhat irrelevant, though. You said that a pure SE means not building any cottages, period. I assert that a pure SE could still have cottages on a few (10-15%) wealth cities, to provide income to pay for military, civics, and city maintenance. I agree with you that having a third of the cities cottaged is a hybrid economy, though.

I still fully support this test, and I'm curious what conclusions will be drawn from it.

 

[Wodan]

I just realized LOL

Shaka is Agg/Exp since the SE depends on Both Health and Happiness unlike the CE where you ONLY have to worry about your Happy Cap. Did you purposely give the SE a SLIGHT Advantage? Because I remember in most of my games I'd generally worry about health more then Happiness because I Don't always play as Peter, and my Happiness Cap was generally higher then my Health Cap. This game is alot differnt now that I worry more about Happiness in my cities. That and Health builldings like ganary and Habours are MUCH CHEAPER LOL

Not really, pretty much picked Shaka out of a hat.

We should have some people play as other leaders. Someone suggested the American leaders... you could try Roosevelt.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Dammit, I just typed a response and the BB killed it. Well, I'll try to remember it all. I apologize if it's disjointed now.

Second, in my personal experience, optimal path in the early stages of a game, (pre CoL or even pre Civil Service) shouldn’t include building cottages. The reason behind this is that early game favors working resources, rather than building cottages. You don’t have time or need to build cottages this early, whether or not you’re going for CE or SE later on.

If you don't build cottages in your capitol early, then you miss out on Bureaucracy. Yes, it hurts your early SE a little bit. However, it greatly helps you after civil service. A little bit of foresight pays dividends.

What I meant to say with that, when I was contrasting CE and SE, is that research and commerce in CE comes from cottages only, and never from specialists.

Didn't you just say that the later CE has specialists? Which, of course, will provide research and commerce.

The amount of beakers you get from GP farm in CE is nothing when compared to what you get from cottages.

Whoa. My CE often has a super-science GP farm which routinely turns in more research than 5-6 of my commerce cities.

Do you not ever use a super-science city? I'm wondering if we're comparing apples to oranges here.

It is not unrealistic utopian ideal, it’s the only way I actually play now,

I think that's part of our difference of opinions.

The whole point of this thread is to compare different play styles and to get people to think outside of the box. Whatever "box" each of us is in, maybe there are other play styles which will outperform our own play style. It depends on the game, and pros and cons of different play styles will be different.

Whenever anyone says "I always play like this" or "never do that" it raises my eyebrows. It's just so foreign to my thinking. For one thing, I would have gotten bored with the game months and months ago. For another, I'm just too inquisitive and interested in experiencing variety. Not just here... heck, I order something new in a restaurant simply because I haven't had it there before. How will I know if the swordfish isn't better than the "same old" steak I always get, if I don't give it a go?

Yes, sometimes half my plate gets thrown out. On the other hand, I'm often pleasantly surprised. And, I like to think I have a pretty enjoyable life. That's what I'm here for. Certainly not to sit on my butt drinking miller lite every night, eating the same pre-packaged meal and watching tv.

Sorry, got a little carried away there.

I just finished playing this way on immortal with Shaka with success. I was too lazy to write down any info and am certainly too lazy to do this game again with cottages.

Wait a minute... it sounds like you're saying, "had some success / won a game, but have no data on other strategies = ergo other strategies are inferior."

That can't be what you're saying... right?

And I don’t understand your question. Do you actually get in such a deficit that you have to have cottages even to research something trivial like writing?

It's a reasonable question. He's saying before Writing, you don't have Scientists. Thus, the only research is from oddball commerce (occasional river, coast, or resource tile). CE has the same commerce PLUS cottages, thus CE would outperform SE prior to Writing, by a great deal. At least, that's basically what he's asking. Like I said, a reasonable question.

Well, here's what I do. First, eyeball for a gold mine or something. CE has difficulty working a no-food tile, but SE it's trivial. Especially before Writing. A single gold mine is HUGE commerce early game.

Second, I often get chariots, and that's it, before going for Writing. Sometimes a minor divergence to go for a religion or fishing. However, I often avoid the expensive military techs. Many players think you HAVE to get BW or IW if no copper, or Horse Riding. Look at the costs, though. Those are the 3 most expensive techs on the early menu!

Anyway, Writing is very cheap, and you can get it no problem. By then my cities are sizable and I can switch to Mines to produce Libraries while I'm working on BW. Any cities without a couple of mines can whip the Library as soon as BW is complete.

You could, of course, go for BW before Writing. Doesn't really matter... it'll come out about the same. The point is, though, when you're playing SE you don't necessarily want to spam all the early techs and then get Writing as an afterthought. That should be obvious, but without sitting and thinking about it, it may not be.

I have 3 cities max before CoL. Anything beyond that is overkill, I think that’s why people really on cottages that early, they spawn 8 cities early thinking space is power. Space isn’t power that early in the game.

Not sure I agree. Having cottages in your capitol will give more money to pay for the added maintenance of 4+ cities, sure. Is that bad? Not when you get a huge payoff when you get Bureaucracy. Plus, you have a bigger empire and don't necessarily have to switch to warmonger mode to expand. You can be peaceful if you like. It's nice to have a choice instead of "do or die".

As long as it has farms or food, the 4th city will support 2 scientists pretty fast. So, it's hard for me to buy that 3 cities is the magic number.

On the other hand, I see where your style is equally viable. Not having villages/towns when you get Bureaucracy means you have to run merchants in the capitol, which dilutes your GPP. Or, you give up on Bureaucracy and run Vasslage. Which, frankly, you'll probably have to have since you're forced to play warmonger now.

Seems to me that both styles are good ways to play, and I'm not going to condemn one or the other. Even if someone is too lazy to participate in the test, it'd be nice if we could use this thread to open our eyes and to experiment with the swordfish.

Wodan

 

[kniteowl]

Would you make an exception for this wonder (Angkor Wat ) in both the SE and CE games becuase most of the time you'd aim for the Angkor Wat for a Preist Production house in the SE but under the CE this wonder is totally useless.

Do I Really have to build the Angkor Wat in both games??? I wouldn't really want to waste 500H on a wonder in the CE that I wont use.

 

[acidsatyr]

If you don't build cottages in your capitol early, then you miss out on Bureaucracy. Yes, it hurts your early SE a little bit. However, it greatly helps you after civil service. A little bit of foresight pays dividends.

Bureaucracy still gives +50% production in capital.

Didn't you just say that the later CE has specialists? Which, of course, will provide research and commerce.

Yes, only in gp farm. That’s what I said.

Whoa. My CE often has a super-science GP farm which routinely turns in more research than 5-6 of my commerce cities.

Unless running caste system and/or representation with all scientists, gp farm still provides small amount of research when compared to the whole of your empire.

Do you not ever use a super-science city? I'm wondering if we're comparing apples to oranges here.

Yeah I have that feeling too…………
Yes I use super science city. I have more than one.

The whole point of this thread is to compare different play styles and to get people to think outside of the box. Whatever "box" each of us is in, maybe there are other play styles which will outperform our own play style. It depends on the game, and pros and cons of different play styles will be different.

Whenever anyone says "I always play like this" or "never do that" it raises my eyebrows. It's just so foreign to my thinking. For one thing, I would have gotten bored with the game months and months ago. For another, I'm just too inquisitive and interested in experiencing variety. Not just here... heck, I order something new in a restaurant simply because I haven't had it there before. How will I know if the swordfish isn't better than the "same old" steak I always get, if I don't give it a go?

Yes, sometimes half my plate gets thrown out. On the other hand, I'm often pleasantly surprised. And, I like to think I have a pretty enjoyable life. That's what I'm here for. Certainly not to sit on my butt drinking miller lite every night, eating the same pre-packaged meal and watching tv.

Sorry, got a little carried away there.

My playing style has been trough many different variations and the way I play now is the most efficient and most entertaining way I played ever. I am really not closed minded, and I used to prefer cottage style play over anything else.

Wait a minute... it sounds like you're saying, "had some success / won a game, but have no data on other strategies = ergo other strategies are inferior."

That can't be what you're saying... right?

Errrrr…..no, that’s not what I’m saying. Take a logic class.

It's a reasonable question. He's saying before Writing, you don't have Scientists. Thus, the only research is from oddball commerce (occasional river, coast, or resource tile). CE has the same commerce PLUS cottages, thus CE would outperform SE prior to Writing, by a great deal. At least, that's basically what he's asking. Like I said, a reasonable question.

Well, here's what I do. First, eyeball for a gold mine or something. CE has difficulty working a no-food tile, but SE it's trivial. Especially before Writing. A single gold mine is HUGE commerce early game.

Second, I often get chariots, and that's it, before going for Writing. Sometimes a minor divergence to go for a religion or fishing. However, I often avoid the expensive military techs. Many players think you HAVE to get BW or IW if no copper, or Horse Riding. Look at the costs, though. Those are the 3 most expensive techs on the early menu!

Anyway, Writing is very cheap, and you can get it no problem. By then my cities are sizable and I can switch to Mines to produce Libraries while I'm working on BW. Any cities without a couple of mines can whip the Library as soon as BW is complete.

You could, of course, go for BW before Writing. Doesn't really matter... it'll come out about the same. The point is, though, when you're playing SE you don't necessarily want to spam all the early techs and then get Writing as an afterthought. That should be obvious, but without sitting and thinking about it, it may not be.

Not really. It depends. Still, if you have trouble researching writing without cottages, you need to revise your strategy that’s for sure.

Not sure I agree. Having cottages in your capitol will give more money to pay for the added maintenance of 4+ cities, sure. Is that bad? Not when you get a huge payoff when you get Bureaucracy. Plus, you have a bigger empire and don't necessarily have to switch to warmonger mode to expand. You can be peaceful if you like. It's nice to have a choice instead of "do or die".

As long as it has farms or food, the 4th city will support 2 scientists pretty fast. So, it's hard for me to buy that 3 cities is the magic number.

On the other hand, I see where your style is equally viable. Not having villages/towns when you get Bureaucracy means you have to run merchants in the capitol, which dilutes your GPP. Or, you give up on Bureaucracy and run Vasslage. Which, frankly, you'll probably have to have since you're forced to play warmonger now.

Not really. It depends.
Still, spamming out cities like madman because you want to stop ai to expand is a poor strategy on high levels. Yes it does work on lower levels, but it’s useless at higher levels.

Even if someone is too lazy to participate in the test, it'd be nice if we could use this thread to open our eyes and to experiment with the swordfish.

My eyes are wide open, I just gave you my opinion on things, you can take it or not. I still think some things are not exactly clear.

 

[Samson]

Not really. It depends. Still, if you have trouble researching writing without cottages, you need to revise your strategy that’s for sure.

This is OT, but as this statment is particuly sweeping and does sound a little like a diss, I have to answer it.

In GOTM 5 I got the 2nd fastest spaceship win, and one of the highest ranked peacefull wins ever (5th in score). I spammed cities and was down to 0% reaserch even with 90% cottage cities at 1 point. I am fairly sure I could have not reaserched writing without cottages.

Everyone has their own play styles and different circumstances call for different actions.

 

[Wodan]

Bureaucracy still gives +50% production in capital.

Sure. Making your capitol a production city is often a good idea. However, we were talking about economics and research.

Plainly, it's a viable game strategy to build cottages in your capitol only, and to reap the benefits of Bureaucracy with your capitol being a commerce city.

We can call it hybrid if you want, but most people on here still call it a SE. It makes the most sense to define a SE in terms of where the majority of research comes from.

Yes, only in gp farm. That’s what I said.

Yes, and you also said, "and never from specialists". That's what I was replying to... the self contradiction you made.

A CE can have a few specialists to produce GPP, and a SE can have a few cottages to produce money. The CE still gets its research from commerce, and the SE still gets its research from scientists. The CE is still a CE, and the SE is still a SE.

Unless running caste system and/or representation with all scientists, gp farm still provides small amount of research when compared to the whole of your empire.

So a CE suddenly becomes not a CE if it chooses to run caste system and representation?

Yes I use super science city. I have more than one.

How is it possible to have more than one? Whatever it is, I need to start doing that.

My playing style has been trough many different variations and the way I play now is the most efficient and most entertaining way I played ever. I am really not closed minded, and I used to prefer cottage style play over anything else.

Glad to hear it. What you didn't say, however, is that you're still as open minded as you used to be. Hopefully so!

Errrrr…..no, that’s not what I’m saying. Take a logic class.

I have. Anyway, what you said was, "Hence, for the purpose of this testing I would definitely change that as most people will end up with hybrid economies and there won’t be great different for whatever economy you go. "

Two possible interpretations that I can see. Either a hybrid economy is inferior to a "pure SE" or all hybrids result in the same economy. Given that your definition of non-hybrid is so strict, I can't see the latter to be the case.

Still, spamming out cities like madman because you want to stop ai to expand is a poor strategy on high levels. Yes it does work on lower levels, but it’s useless at higher levels.

I don't think anyone advocated to spam cities... that's a proven strategic failure in Civ.

The idea is that you can take a "pure SE" and relax the definition just a bit to allow additional commerce generation to generate more gold, to support more than "3 cities".

I agree 35% is too much, and I changed that.

My eyes are wide open, I just gave you my opinion on things, you can take it or not.

Yep, thanks for the thoughts.

I probably won't reply to this again. There's nothing anyone has discussed that makes me want to change my own vote. If anyone comes up with something new, great, we can talk it over and see if it's worth changing the test guidelines at this late date.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Would you make an exception for this wonder (Angkor Wat ) in both the SE and CE games becuase most of the time you'd aim for the Angkor Wat for a Preist Production house in the SE but under the CE this wonder is totally useless.

Do I Really have to build the Angkor Wat in both games??? I wouldn't really want to waste 500H on a wonder in the CE that I wont use.

Absolutely, this is ok.

Again: it's OKAY to do something in one game but not the other, as long as there it is based on SE or CE.

What we want to avoid is something such as founding a religion with one but not the other.

Wodan

 

[cabert]

I'm interested in the results of the first testing round, but i have a few questions.

When I plan to go cottaging (i do sometimes, though i'm not too good at it), i start agri,wheel,pottery (hopefully one of these 3 is a starting tech).
When i want to go specialists, i go for mining/BW and writing through priesthood = opening oracle option. When cottaging i don't go the religious route. It has some sense since a library need writing that you can have easier with priesthood or AH than through pottery.
Sure granaries are useful, but they can want a bit, most of the time (more useful for city 2 and 3, because i'll be whipping them harder).

So it's obviously a given to me that i'll have more religions (one more!) if i go for specialists than if I go for cottages.

It's really another way of playing, not just another way of researching.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Samson]

What sort of time scale are you looking at for this test? I had expected to have time around now, but it appears I shall not be able to start my game until the 9th Oct. After this however I will have loads of time (read 24 hours/ day). If this is too late take me off the list of people who will run the test.

 

[acidsatyr]

Sure. Making your capitol a production city is often a good idea. However, we were talking about economics and research.

Plainly, it's a viable game strategy to build cottages in your capitol only, and to reap the benefits of Bureaucracy with your capitol being a commerce city.

We can call it hybrid if you want, but most people on here still call it a SE. It makes the most sense to define a SE in terms of where the majority of research comes from.

There is a difference between S-oriented-E and pure SE.

Yes, and you also said, "and never from specialists". That's what I was replying to... the self contradiction you made.

Ok you lost me, I don’t even know what were talking about here, I don’t think I made contradiction, nevermind.

So a CE suddenly becomes not a CE if it chooses to run caste system and representation?

Where did I say that? Stop putting your words into my mouth please.

Glad to hear it. What you didn't say, however, is that you're still as open minded as you used to be. Hopefully so!

An open minded person, in my view, is someone who is willing to hear others opinions on a matter no matter how different they might be from that persons view of the matter. However, it doesn’t involve any acceptance of that view. That has nothing to do with being open minded.

Two possible interpretations that I can see. Either a hybrid economy is inferior to a "pure SE" or all hybrids result in the same economy. Given that your definition of non-hybrid is so strict, I can't see the latter to be the case.

I see a trend here. Why do you keep on insisting that I think that other strategies are inferior? Where did I ever say that? First of all no economy is inferior to some other. Second, in hybrid economy it is hard to distinguish effects you get from both parts, ce and se, and so if I was the one to set up the rules I would change that, and for the sake of this testing would really make sure that one is very different from the other. You lowered 35% to 20%(or so?). Still not good if you ask me.

The idea is that you can take a "pure SE" and relax the definition just a bit to allow additional commerce generation to generate more gold, to support more than "3 cities".

The question is, why would you need more than 3 cities so early? I said 3 it could very well be even two. Rarely more. You need to grab luxury if you can, you need to grab strategies resource(s) if you can. And that’s it. If is far more advantageous to start building army and capturing AI’s cities. On immortal you don’t have time to build more than 3 cities even if wanted to. By the way 3 is a good number for one other reason. The cost of your 4th city is greatly increased. The cost of your 3nd city is two times less than the cost of your 4th city if I remember correctly. Unless you have a very good reason to settle that one, you should start finishing off your neighbors.

I probably won't reply to this again. There's nothing anyone has discussed that makes me want to change my own vote. If anyone comes up with something new, great, we can talk it over and see if it's worth changing the test guidelines at this late date.

Lol I love it when I hear that I probly wont reply to this again.
Like I said, I’m just giving you my view on the thing you can take it or not.
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