CFC: Fastest STANDARD SETTINGS Deity Science Victory

[ATEX]

Congrats and thanks for the write-up Minou. I see many similarities to my own experience of trying the pillage economy. Did you end up testing the city chopping? Im also wondering if we save big ben, and lets say 100k gold, would we be able to buy all the GS or GE, and do you think it would matter?

Im looking forward to see if Babylon can compete with this, and how far down a optimized viking game could go. =) I think we will see 140s here soon, and maybe even 130s!

 

[Minou]

I did not try the "city chop" since I only had about 7 good cities and needed them to build various things.

It would be interesting to try and get the late GP again. I simply hate it that they were basically cut out of the game by the ridiculous cost scaling. Why do the developers keep actively ruining things? So i managed to pillage 166,000g and I am sure I could double it with more focus. Even then though, an Information Era GP like Kwolek would cost something like 140,000g in the Industrial Era according to this post:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cost-of-great-person.664475/#post-15961198

Since our games ended in the Renaissance Era they would cost even more, and this doesn't even count the cost of buying up all the Atomic and Modern ones first. So, I would say it is possible but basically you'd have to devote absolutely all of your gold to it and it would be way better to buy other things instead. But, it might be possible to grab some useful earlier ones, specifically Korolev, with a combination of strict focus on really exploiting flip cities and maybe also running some Industrial Zone projects.

 

[ATEX]

Yeah, if the cost is that high, it cannot be efficient. I will try to play a Babylon game and incorporate city chopping. But it takes me probably a month to finish, so I hope we have at least one Babylon game on the list by then so I can get some pointers.

 

[Minou]

Damn, conquering AIs is much harder post-patch (unless maybe I just had bad luck). I found Greece on the coast and was chopped a quick Galley, was bashing down a nice city for ~50 damage per turn and they got walls up on like T40. I am used to many cities having no walls even around T100. This is going to make Babylonia even stronger since they can leapfrog to units like Crossbows and Pike and Shot that can ignore Ancient Walls and also make Battering Rams and Akkad much better. It also makes Horseman Horse much less attractive, would suck to go all in on an early Horse rush and then get completely stalled by walls....

I guess Norway pillaging will still be strong as you can actually ignore war if you just make your own flip cities. Should also make peaceful a little closer to war for fast times, though I think warring still has a big edge just because you could basically play peaceful most of the game but then let rip with a global pillaging raid for a few thousand science and even more gold.

 

[Casualty of war]

It's not bad luck. I've had the Deity AI have walls up as soon as Turn 13. Turn 13! Consistently early 20s. Sometimes the AI still neglects walls but Horseman rush is a huge gamble now.

The Deity AI after this latest patch can do some spectacular teching too. I had a game the other day where Australia had 100 Beakers per Turn on turn 60 with only 5 cities, 140 per Turn by turn 90. I was playing Babylon and was third in science.

 

[Casualty of war]

This game is off to a great start! As soon as I finish that second Harbor, I can chop the Copper, upgrade my two ships to Caravels and go smash every unwalled coastal city, walled ones once I get a Frigate going. On a Continents and Islands map, I should be spoiled for targets.

Spoiler :

Or I can just do some nonsense.

Spoiler :

Here, I'll save you the trouble of having to produce your own goofiness. Oh, Firaxis, sometimes I just don't know what to think about you.

 

[Casualty of war]

Of course, shenanigans like this can have strange side effects, like Arabia apparently having Predictive Systems done long enough to get Wind Farms up and who knows what else in the brief window they had suzerainty over Nalanda. Next step might be to go burn that City-State to the ground.

Spoiler :

 

[Casualty of war]

I don't even feel like we are playing the same game pre-and post-patch, but for honor's sake I'll go ahead and slot my other Matthias game in there.

• 1st place: Minou 154 - Norway/ Harald
• 2nd place: ATEX 156 - Norway/ Harald
• 3rd place: Minou 161 - USA/ Teddy (Bull Moose)
• 4th place: whacker 165 - Russia/Peter

• 5th place: ATEX 167- Russia/Peter
• 6th place: Civ Chemist - 177 - Japan/Hojo Tokimune
• 7th place: Victoria - 191 - Maori/Kupe
• 8th place: Bangau - 192 - Korea/Seondeok
• 9th place: Casualty of War - 198 - Matthias/Austria
• 10th place: Lotrmith - 200 Bolivar/GranColombia

 

[DanQuayle]

Of course, shenanigans like this can have strange side effects, like Arabia apparently having Predictive Systems done long enough to get Wind Farms up and who knows what else in the brief window they had suzerainty over Nalanda. Next step might be to go burn that City-State to the ground.

Spoiler :

View attachment 576807

Either the AI is triggering "unintentionally" in some way the Nalanda bug (which I doubt) or it is cheating by getting random techs discovered by other civilizations (you).
Even with a spy, they should only get the boost, not the whole tech.

 

[ATEX]

Finished my first playthrough of Babylon, and there is no doubt that they can compete with Norway, and maybe even be faster. The game is pretty much what we discussed earlier, with using your extreme military advantage to take a lot of cities, then build a lot of industrial zones and campuses, give them away to an AI then pillage them to avoid the game going into a halt when you cant get more boosts. A "city chop" like this can net you over 2000 science in one turn. So this method works. It is very strange to play babylonI will try to do a writeup of the game strategy during the week. Map had no culture at all, so I expect 120s are within reach on a good map.

• 1st place: ATEX 138 - Babylon/ Hammurabi
• 2nd place: Minou 154 - Norway/ Harald
• 3rd place: ATEX 156 - Norway/ Harald
• 4th place: Minou 161 - USA/ Teddy (Bull Moose)
• 5th place: whacker 165 - Russia/Peter

• 6th place: ATEX 167- Russia/Peter
• 7th place: Civ Chemist - 177 - Japan/Hojo Tokimune
• 8th place: Victoria - 191 - Maori/Kupe
• 9th place: Bangau - 192 - Korea/Seondeok
• 10th place: Casualty of War - 198 - Matthias/Austria

 

[Enfant_Sauvage]

Yeah... I used to be good at CIV VI but the game has gone too far. It is too technical for me to have fun playing the game but it is always amazing to see this.

 

[ATEX]

Yeah... I used to be good at CIV VI but the game has gone too far. It is too technical for me to have fun playing the game but it is always amazing to see this.

I agree that these speed-games have become very technical now. And probably only for the very few interested. But if you look away from the top 3 places, the rest of the games are sill trying to build as an efficient empire as possible in a more traditional sense.

 

[Enfant_Sauvage]

I will maybe give a try to Korea or Rome on a peaceful gme, I usually dislike war on CIV VI.

 

[Minou]

Congrats ATEX! I look forward to reading your write-up. I had a great game going but I totally blew it and my conquering was going way too slow for lack of a Battering Ram. I thought Pike and Shots would chew through Ancient Walls, and they did but only very slowly. Plus, they are actually pretty vulnerable to Swords and I stupidly chose the wrong promotion for my first one. Then I paid no attention to Era Score and missed the second Golden Age somehow. It would have been an easy win but not HOF worthy with all my mistakes so I quit. Have a second attempt going now but it is really hard to tell how well I am doing - I have crazy late game techs at T75 but also have pitiful actual culture and science rates.

How much did "City Chopping" help? To be honest I kind of hate the concept despite it sounding very efficient. I am wondering if I can find enough Campus / IZ to pillage late in the game without using this method and still do well.

I do think maybe we should have separate lists for Peaceful versus War games.

 

[Minou]

On a more general note, the latest patch has definitely made the game much harder for speed runs.

The biggest change is walls. I relied heavily on levying city states for early wars in all my best games, and that just doesn't seem possible anymore with the AIs throwing up walls super early. I had an amazing game going with two Galley and some Archers about to capture a great coastal capital around T40 and then up came the walls wreckage my game. It seems like the old Warrior/Archer rush and Horseman rush gambits are now extremely risky.

DF decreasing in value hurt more than I expected. My first Babylon game I was thinking 500g would be no problem for those two Crossbow upgrades, and then everyone was offering 1g instead of the old 7g or so and my math was way off. It seems like Sweden at least still pays top dollar, making them even better as an opponent than before.

On the plus side, the AI prioritizing Campus over Holy Sites makes their cities more useful to capture and also means you can often wait on much longer Holy Site if you want a religion.

I haven't played a full Space game since the patch so I don't know if the AIs are any better at late game war but I doubt it. Maybe i will be shocked when I get nuked on T150?

 

[Minou]

ATEX I opened your save file. Very impressive to get that time with what looks like a pretty average start - capital has nice mountains/hills but nothing crazy like a Natural Wonder or three Spices. And no science or culture city states at all! I have a couple of questions:

1. How many of your own cities did you "chop"? Did you space it out just to make sure you got one late tech per turn or did you go on a mad spree and get multiple techs in a big batch?

2. I was surprised how you only had like 120spt, so I assume almost all the science for unboostable techs came from pillaging? In my current game it is early but I am hoping to use Geneva+Kilwa+happiness to get my late game science close to "normal" despite the Babylon penalty.

3. See you got Oracle in the capital. What turn did you get it? It seems like the AI goes for it super early in the latest patch (often gone by T50) and I basically have given up on it because rushing it feels too costly in terms of delaying Settlers/Military.

4. I am assuming based on the military that Novgorod is being used as a pillage-flip city for gold/faith, like in our Norway games (but with no science/culture)? Was this the only back-and-forth flipping city you had, and was it a big help?

 

[ATEX]

ATEX I opened your save file. Very impressive to get that time with what looks like a pretty average start - capital has nice mountains/hills but nothing crazy like a Natural Wonder or three Spices. And no science or culture city states at all! I have a couple of questions:

1. How many of your own cities did you "chop"? Did you space it out just to make sure you got one late tech per turn or did you go on a mad spree and get multiple techs in a big batch?

2. I was surprised how you only had like 120spt, so I assume almost all the science for unboostable techs came from pillaging? In my current game it is early but I am hoping to use Geneva+Kilwa+happiness to get my late game science close to "normal" despite the Babylon penalty.

3. See you got Oracle in the capital. What turn did you get it? It seems like the AI goes for it super early in the latest patch (often gone by T50) and I basically have given up on it because rushing it feels too costly in terms of delaying Settlers/Military.

4. I am assuming based on the military that Novgorod is being used as a pillage-flip city for gold/faith, like in our Norway games (but with no science/culture)? Was this the only back-and-forth flipping city you had, and was it a big help?

Hi,

I will start the writeup today, but to take your questions first, You can see what cities I chopped by looking at the names. Any city with a number in it was chopped in chop round 1 to 4. One tech per round is not an issue any more. I chopped on waves(1-4), because you need an AI that you can declare war on, and with constant war with everyone that becomes an issue. And I think one or two cities was in the first and fourth wave. It was a lot more messy than I thought, but it does work very well. Map is not great no, with lack of culture sources beeing the biggest drawback.

spt, geneva and Kilwa I think is a dead end with this strat. spt is too slow, and all unboostables needs to come from pillage or Great Scientists. If you want to avoid city chopping I agree to go for high spt. Relying on AI pillages I think is too weak. Too few campuses and IZs.

Oracle was very late and built just because it was available. I did end up getting some value for it, but I dont think that wonder really matters much, and I never did like it.

Novgorod was a flip city yes, and later I added another. This could be called a bit lazy, but it is just so much easier to get all the boosts when your economy is strong. Since I controlled the whole map, I could probably rely on chops to do many of the boosts instead, but that requires a lot more planning as you know. Gold is flexibility.

When it comes to war, bombards seems to be very strong for babylon because of the wall issues, but no worries about getting nuked at turn 150... AI is still pretty useless at war.

One a side note! If you finish your game: Beware that pillages doesnt help you with moon landing, as the science is not counted for the 10x. And dont try to give away a gov. plaza or diplo quarter. That doesnt work either. And also you cant give away cities that are occupied, is an original capitol or has it walls damaged. Learned all these the hard way. =)

 

[Minou]

Thanks for the heads up about Moon Landing. But I was already under the impression instant sources like pillaging to do not count. Do non-pillage instant science, like for example Galileo, get counted?

I was assuming Moon Landing culture was based on the SPT shown in the upper left (exulting instant sources). My idea was to make up for the -50% penalty by getting any percentage modifiers as soon as possible - Geneva, Kilwa, Globalization, Amundsen Scott, and if possible happiness (though that's probably a stretch these days) and also spreading my religion with Cross-Cultural Dialogue (which does not receive the 50% penalty). Will be interesting to see how far I can push the SPT if I ever get time to complete the game.

 

[ATEX]

Thanks for the heads up about Moon Landing. But I was already under the impression instant sources like pillaging to do not count. Do non-pillage instant science, like for example Galileo, get counted?

I was assuming Moon Landing culture was based on the SPT shown in the upper left (exulting instant sources). My idea was to make up for the -50% penalty by getting any percentage modifiers as soon as possible - Geneva, Kilwa, Globalization, Amundsen Scott, and if possible happiness (though that's probably a stretch these days) and also spreading my religion with Cross-Cultural Dialogue (which does not receive the 50% penalty). Will be interesting to see how far I can push the SPT if I ever get time to complete the game.

GSs does not get counted no. But if you chop campus research grants, that will count the whole chop. Disregarding if you finish the grant or not. I will be very surprised if that strategy of SPT can compete with city chopping, but we might have to separate the chopping games into a separate category.

 

[Minou]

Sounds right. I think I will just skip the city chopping and see how I end up doing as a benchmark, then I can try a chop game if I can muster the will to compare. To be honest I am finding the game so much harder mostly do to difficulty of early conquest. In my Teddy game I has 12 cities on T75 thanks to city state levy rush. In my first few attempts with Babylon the best I have done is 9 and that was with an insane nature wonder start. My current attempt I am only at 6 so it feels like there is no chance of getting close to T150.

Pike and Shot slingshot is great, but it is so much slower because of the required 500g to upgrade Crossbows and then the 250h production for each one. I thought I could start conquest with just the Crossbows but it seems like even a newly founded AI city throws up walls in ten turns or less and by the time I grind them down I might as well have waited for the Pike and Shot anyway.

Shouldn't complain since I always said the AI was too weak. Its just frustrating that its basically impossible to compare times from one month to the next with all the rapid changes! Played with today's walls, my Teddy game probably would have taken 30 more turns at least. I may go back to peaceful games and compare Teddy versus peaceful Babylon. You lose the fun military leapfrog but the free buildings and full boosts are still pretty nice.