Challenge #7: Wonder Woman

[Raiser]

Congrats on 800AD Uberfish.

I have no idea what the lowest possible date is for this, but I will damn well try and find it.

Started over after my first attempt went south. This time I'm going to try a more extreme route.



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[Technocactus]

Would a move towards early Metal Casting be viable? Getting more GEs could be vital, and an engineer specialist could help do that. And forges will improve wonder speed anyway.

 

[ShannonCT]

Had another go at it. I ended up matching Uberfish with a 800AD date. All of the same wonders as Mr. Uber too.

I went with a third city this time to grab an extra resource.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/Wonder_Woman_AD-0800.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Shoot the Moon]

First attempt: 1200 AD. I made a couple of huge blunders:

Spoiler :

After I got Pyramids, I forgot to change civics (heriditay rule would have saved a lot of time). Also, I miss counted wonders, so I did not rush at all to the last wonder. In addition, I started cottages way too late. I also missed the Parthenon by a couple of turns due to stupidity, which would have saved me reasearching Divine Right.

My general strategy:

Spoiler :

I went with three cities, capitol 1SW of starting spot, next 2E of sheep, next between cow, gems and rice to the east. Only wonder I didn't get was Parthenon.

 

[Urederra]

Hi,

I am newbie here. Well, new at the challenges. I built my 12nd wonder on 1070 AD. That was my fourth attempt. Here it is what happened in my previous attempts:

Spoiler :

I was lucky at my first attempt, I had up to three scouts from the goody huts, but I realized I placed my second city in a wrong tile, so I restarted the game. (restart it from 4000 BC, I have followed the game rules and I have never restarted the game from a date other than 4000 BC)
My second attempt was very unlucky, my warrior got killed in a not so goody hut.
My third attempt was more lucky, I managed to pop-up animal husbandry, but something went wrong, I cant remember what, and i started from scratch again.
I remembered the sequence for the animal husbandry pop-up, so I repeated it. I got it. and I also got very lucky and I poped iron working too... that was a big blast. I commited a couple of mistakes too, but overall it was a well played game

My general strategy

Spoiler :

I started founding without moving the settler and building a worker and researching mining followed by bronze working for the chop rush. then, by a lucky strike I had animal husbandry popped from a hut. I worked the cows, make roads until i discovered chopping, then chop 1 tile to rush a settler, place it by the clamps at the plain/hills tile (it gives an extra hammer )

Then discover fishing, work the pig's tile, generate another worker in the capital, after growing to pop two, discover masonry, quarry at the stones and start building the piramids.

the third city was founded close to the gems, for the extra money. I wasn't going to try stonehedge, but since it only took 10 turns to build it in my second city, I tried and I built it in the same turn I finished the piramids. I went for the oracle in my third city, after building a worker. I researched code of laws and I chose philosophy as a freebie. I changed to caste system and the civic that gives extra 100% great person growing rate (can't remember the civic's name)

i found a fourth city in the jungle close to the rice tile and the dyes tile. I declared war on then japanese and I took 2 of their cities.

Finally, I had two great engineers that i used to rush two wonders and I chop rushed Itza and the spiral minaret to finish at 1070 AD.

My two big mistakes: I forgot to research politeism (It wasn't very polite of me LOL) until I had my first great prophet. So I didn't go for the parthenon.
Somehow I think an 50% extra great person rate would be much better than any other wonder thing.

I went for music too late too. I didn't know you can build a great wonder if you research music. Usually I do it for the great artist if I go for a cultural victory.

EDIT: On second thoughts, maybe I shouldn't have founded my fourth city. The attack to the japanese was good since I built itza in one of his cities by chop-rushing while I was working on other wonders in my other three big cities.

I will try to do it better sometime this week..

Great thread.

 

[Garath]

So far I've had one abortive and two complete attempts, myself. On the first attempt I lost three wonders by 200AD, so I gave up. On the second I got an 840AD finish, and on the third I managed to build eleven wonders by 720AD, but without the tech for any more. I'd lost the Parthenon by one turn earlier in the attempt, though, so I'm at least morally convinced that 720AD could have been done. Something to aim for!

Strategies follow:

Spoiler :

The crucial thing I'm not sure of is whether it's actually worth getting Civil Service or not. In the first full attempt I didn't get it at all, taking an early Metal Casting from the Oracle and getting the wonders built fairly efficiently afterwards. However, I only had two workers, which wasn't *nearly* enough to chop the forests efficiently at the end, and I founded my third city far too late, so I could definitely have done better without CS.

The second attempt was CS from a Prophet, after taking Code of Laws (I think) from the Oracle. I don't like how late that delays Masonry, though, since there are very important wonders available from it. I'm still undecided on which is better, though. I had four workers in this one (still not enough), which greatly increased the chopping efficiency at the end of the run, and I think that made most of the difference in date, so I'm still not sure about CS. What do the rest of you think about tech path?

My main irritations so far are that the date of the AI building the Parthenon is massively variable (and I'm pretty sure it's going to be necessary on the best path, being cheaper than all other options before Divine Right), and that which Great People you get makes a significant difference. I've seen, over those three attempts, the AIs build the Parthenon in 500BC, 1AD and 500AD, or so. In one attempt I got a Great Engineer, and they're definitely more useful than, say, the third Great Prophet. So if someone gets lucky and gets a Prophet, two Engineers and one other as their four great people (I'm getting four, the last timed together with the Artist from Music for a GA), rather than say two Prophets and two Scientists like my last run, they'll definitely improve it, and it's entirely luck based.

Saves attached for the 840AD complete and the 720AD 11-wonder game.

Garath

 

[Raiser]

So I'm still not sure about CS. What do the rest of you think about tech path?

For me it comes down to the fact that in a game that finishes at 800AD the most efficient of a Great Prophet is a lightbulb. And the best lightbulb is probably CS.

As I seem to be getting two prophets. I think I'll try super-specialist for the first while going the Metal Casting route and using the second one to jump to a late CS and take the last few wonders from there.



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[patagonia]

I had an abortive attempt at this, but don't seem to be able to tech sufficiently quickly

Spoiler :

The approach I've been trying is popping a prophet for Theology after bagging metal casting via the oracle and then running temple-powered priests to grab Divine Right for the last wonder or two. With cultural + stonehenge, you can steal territory from any other civ on the map, which makes slashing 2nd and 3rd cities across Gandhi's land to grab the marble and horses in the ice to the southwest relatively easy (especially as he'll never declare on you). The Parthenon helps with the great person generation, but always seems to give me an unwanted artist at very low odds, which isn't really helping matters.

 

[Urederra]

I had an abortive attempt at this, but don't seem to be able to tech sufficiently quickly

Try settling and grabbing the gems at the other side of the lake. then, build the great library over there.

EDIT: I gave the game some oher tries and I had the same problem you are describing, patagonia. In the first try I skipped iron working because it doesn't allow building any wonders or the discovery of any tech that gives you wonders, but then I realized that I needed to jungle-chopping and mining the gems Then I tried settling on the gold across the jungle, but Caesar claimed the spot first.

Now I am going to try researching fishing early and selecting the lake tiles in my capital since it gives you 2 commerce, and then beeline to iron working and see if I can choose philosophy with the oracle. I like the extra 100% great person growth rate.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

After an aborted attempt, I got 900 AD on my next attempt. I went with the same three cities as before. I'm not sure how much I can improve on that time. Although one thing obviously lacking in my game was any luck from huts. In terms of IW for the gems, I went for alphabet and traded back IW. I think my next attempt will be pretty extreme. I am thinking of giving away almost every tech I research in hopes of speeding up the teching rate of the game. Another note, in terms of Great Prophet use, I would rather lightbulb theology for Sistine's than CS.

 

[Garath]

Iron Working isn't a wonder tech, so I don't want to have to self-research it. Getting it from trading after Alphabet seems more than good enough to me, unless you desperately need the Gems site rather than another location. Fundamentally, it isn't actually all that important to be able to chop jungle early (or at all, if you had to self-research it. It's nice, but it can wait), and I've never been attacked, so Iron clearly isn't needed for military.

As for Prophet lightbulbing, I thought Theology until I realised that Sistine Chapel is the most expensive wonder on the list, so the game is almost certain to be won by someone who manages to build the Parthenon instead. CS is clearly best, but it delayed Masonry too much in my last run. Maybe I should simply be more proactive about Stonehenge, rather than letting it wait for workers and settlers and suchlike.

I'm interested by this idea of throwing the second or third city out to the marble somewhere or other. I might have to give that a try, though my inclination is that it'll just be too far to make it worth bothering.

Garath

 

[Raiser]

I tried reversing my first and second cities. 1st city on the silk-cows-clams-dye site north of the start position and the 2nd back down south on the site one square south-west of the start position for the cows-pig-wheat and stone.

I like the strong start this provides, as the workboat allows early growth. (Warrior while getting Fishing; Work-boat while growing and getting B/W; then 1 turn on worker and whip for 2 pop to finish.)

The forest layout works well this way. 5 mid-turn chops for the 1st settler. Settler and worker to the second city site and 3 mid-turn chops for the 2nd worker. So no slowing of growth at any point.

And the early wonders felt easy. I got Henge and Oracle in the capital, while I was building the Pyramids with the stone connected in 2nd city. This separates out the early GE wonder, and I didn't feel the loss of stone for the Henge.

Unfortunately this time round the 3rd city was a problem. It wasn't any slower than my other abortive attempts, but Toku was super quick on strong the eastern Gems and Cow site, and Julius took the Gold, Wheat and Bronze site north of my capital. (I like that site as it speeds up the Colossus in the capital and gives an easy +1 happy.)

Perhaps I should have gone for just 2 cities, but I took the poor third location a little south-west of my second city - Sheep and 4 hills - and regretted it. Started loosing wonders.

Abandoned this attempt about 1000AD with 10 built, but I'll try again.



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[lilnev]

First (blind) attempt my research died. Writing took 20-some turns, Alphabet was going to take forever. I abandoned the second attempt after losing the 'Henge by 1 turn, but it's the approach I think I'll pursue for now:

Spoiler :

Settle on the silk. This brings in clams for early research, as well as cows and a couple of hills. Second city NE of sheep, with four hills. Third near the start, wheat+stone+pigs+cows. I might try switching the order of the second and third. Capital builds Stonehenge but doesn't finish it early. Just sink hammers there in between workers and settlers. Second city builds Oracle as fast as possible (read: chopping), claiming Metal Casting. Third city puts up a forge quickly and runs an engineer to get a GE for the Pyramids. I need the forge up no more than 15 turns after the earliest wonder, which is why the 'Henge has to wait until the Oracle is almost done.
Research order is Fishing, Mining, Myst, AH, BW, Med, Poly, Pottery, Writing. I'm not positive on the timing of Myst.

As a more general thought, this game seems to be research-limited. Cottages won't have the time to pay off, there are no rivers, the only gems are covered in jungle, and we're not financial. That probably means one of two things: Colossus + Great Lighthouse for a coastal strategy, or run a specialist economy with lots of scientists. The latter plan would very much like the Pyramids and (to a lesser extent) the Parthenon. I'm not sure how feasible it is to get both, however.

peace,
lilnev

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I've had some attempts, but I can never get below 900AD. How do you build the pyramids and not stunt growth? *sigh*.

Say Uberfish, if you do win this one, are you going to go for a standard challange, or some crazy ones like the ones on your website (which was a great read BTW)? On top of my head, perhaps a "fastest to spread Christianity to every city in the world"? We need a storyline for that of course.

 

[uberfish]

I'm interested by this idea of throwing the second or third city out to the marble somewhere or other.

Err, what marble? I couldn't find any, even looking in the worldbuilder after the game.

 

[ShannonCT]

New best date here... 740AD. Same strategy as my 800AD game.

Spoiler :

Settle by cows, pigs, wheat, and stone. Second city on plains hill on the coast near sheep. Third city later to grab marble for Great Library and other wonders. Took Metal Casting with the Oracle for forges and more engineers. Ended up with 2 great engineers for wonders. 1 prophet for theology. 1 prophet as a super specialist. 1 scientist for philosophy. If that second prophet had been another engineer, I probably could have shaved off 5 more turns.

The Wonders:
1: Stonehenge
2: Pyramids
3: Oracle (Metal Casting)
4: Parthenon
5: Great Lighthouse (engineer)
6: Great Library
7: Colossus
8: Chichen Itza
9: Hanging Gardens
10: Notre Dame (engineer)
11: Sistine Chapel
12: Angkor Wat

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/Wonder_Woman_AD-0740.Civ4SavedGame

 

[patagonia]

Err, what marble? I couldn't find any, even looking in the worldbuilder after the game.

Spoiler :

It's in the ice about 15-20 squares SW of the start position - pretty much due south of where Gandhi begins the game, but accessible with city number 3 due to the masses of culture the first two are pumping.

Settling directly on it would speed hook-up time and leave a fair few nearby forests to chop a wonder there.

 

[Urederra]

Thanks patagonia, I didn't see the marble either.

Well played, Shannon, It seems that having luck with the great engineers is a key.

 

[Raiser]

Well done ShannonCT. I'm jut not cutting the mustard here (is that an UK-only expression??) My best attempt is 1190AD. I'll try once more at the weekend. (Maybe. Maybe not. I've got Neverwinter 2 arriving Friday and Medieval 2 demo is out now! )

I'm working a good specialist economy, and I won all my 12 wonder races finishing on Notre Dame. No need for me to research monarchy to get that tricky Divine Right. Metal Casting from the Oracle. Light-bulbed Theology and researched CoL and happen to get a GP light-bulb to CS the next turn. So took it for the irrigation as much as anything. Even got one GE (finally), but still ended on 1190AD. Which is way off target.

Not sure what I'm going to change. I do like this 3 city placement, especially the northern city with it's 4 mines, Copper (for the Collosus) and a Goldmine.

Spoiler :

Capital whipped from 11 pop to 6 pop for the last wonder.

I guess 2 cities and snatching Marble, as ShannonCT did, is a stronger way to go.



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[scherbchen]

aye, raiser, methinks that be a british expression only....

must be because them americans put mustard only on their hot dogs. but if any of y´all ever get to the southern part of germany please do me the favour and try our sweet mustard with... well basically anything, though of course weisswürste and leberkäse are the traditional dishes...

i did not get a chance to play a lot of civ the last weeks, so i gave this two tries tonight. 1090 on my first blind (and completely borked up) attempt. then i tried to think my way through the second time around... and boy did i sink the titanic. i was trying to plot a course around that iceberg and spent so much time thinking that the 3rd class was already being cast for that darn leo de caprio flick when i borked it up even more. if i get the time give this another go it will certainly teach me something about the tech tree (like how it works for starters) and something about micromanaging (as in: "do it"). of course slavery is a tool i never ever really use and even though i have been told time and time again... i´m still surprised that it actually does something.

love the challenge, hate not having enough time

hut-spoiler

Spoiler :

move up to first hut N, wait a turn, pop animal hjusbandry.
move to suggested city site (cows,silk, water resource) go directly for the hut, wait a turn before popping it and pop another tech, fishing i think)