Change England to Britain

[Rhye]

Victoria can be considered both English and British, there's no need to argue.
City names are indeed British in this mod.
However, a British civ sounds too modern all through the medieval age, don't you think?

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

I don't think Britain sounds any more modern than England to be honest. Britannia's been the Island's name for ages.

The origin of the name Britain may be connected with the Brythonic 'Prydyn' (Goidelic: Cruithne), a name used to describe some northern inhabitants of the island by Britons or pre-Roman Celts in the south. "It was itself named Albion, while all the islands about which we shall soon briefly speak were called the Britanniae."

Wiki

 

[Barak]

Victoria was both English and British, there's no need to argue.
City names are indeed British in this mod.
However, a British civ sounds too modern all through the medieval age, don't you think?

I agree that the British name is too modern for a civ spawning in the 9th century.

 

[kairob]

I agree with changing it to britain

 

[Psyringe]

I think a nice compromise would be to let "England" spawn around Londinium only, give it "conquer the whole British island" as a first objective, and change the name to "Britain" once this objective has been fulfilled.

But it's probably too much hassle to implement this, for too little gain. There are probably 100 other ideas that deserve more to be implemented.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

That's a good idea, Psyringe, but yeah, probably is too low priority.

 

[onedreamer]

Victoria was both English and British, there's no need to argue.
City names are indeed British in this mod.
However, a British civ sounds too modern all through the medieval age, don't you think?

There aren't british city names, there is a script that names cities according to the location. If France founded a city in Scotland would it be called Inverness or Orleans ? And if it was Inverness would it be a british city ?
The civ in the game is born in England, exactly as in History. It might or might not get to the extent it did IRL when the empire took the name of British Empire. It could be a script similar to how EU works, where if you own certain cities by certain dates your civ will get a different name (Rome could also become Italy and so on). But the fact is, that when the civ starts it is England.
But in the end, how much does it take to anyone to name it as prefer ? Not really worth a discussion if not to propose a system to change Civ names, but then it should be something for all civs that could use it.

 

[onedreamer]

The fact remains that, since Scotland and Wales aren't in the game, calling their cities 'conquered' by the English isn't really fair.

why ? Then if Rome founded Syracuse in Sicily it wouldn't be fair because in reality it should be a Greek colony first ?

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

But Greece is in the game.

 

[Phallus]

I agree that the British name is too modern for a civ spawning in the 9th century.

"Britain" in both Latin and Brythonic, pre-dates the 9th century. Even in its most archaic form, "England" barely meets this deadline.

 

[Phallus]

Victoria is English. The fact that she was queen of the British Empire is not relevant IMO,

No, Victoria was German. If historical accuracy is irrelevant to you then I suggest you find another mod or play a different game.

and if anything it only proves once more how British Empire is just a name given in order to please the populations that at that time, english people considered inferior or a minority.

This is obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of the Union - this isn't at all relevant. We were historically known as Great Britain, not the English Empire.

Curiously, the fact that some people ask for the empire to be called GB in the game makes of this theme a contemporary one. Redcoats... well yeah saying redcoats were english is probably wrong.

Definitely wrong, I might venture. If you complain that Britain is too contemporary, then may I suggest we scrap Germany and replace it with the Holy Roman Empire as not to ignore the earlier half of the game?

Finally, the only city not english in the city list is Cardiff, 1 on 20, so I suggest you base your considerations on facts and not impressions.

Er, what? How is this relevant to anything at all, let alone Rhye's and Fall where the city list goes for accuracy rather than a random selection probably compiled in three minutes? As for fact vs. impressions, your impression is that, because the British Empire was mostly run from London, we should take a detour from fact and reality so that we may give the largest empire the world has seen a different name.

For example the fact that England starts near Ireland, where Dublin sits, doesn't mean that they will necessarily be the civ that will conquer it, and anyways it does mean that since it's barbarian, it doesn't belong to the civ, which is, in fact, England.

Just because India starts near the rest of the Indian subcontinent, it doesn't it will ever become Indian. What's your point? If anything calling India the 'Delhi Sultanate' or something similar would be more accurate as, unlike Britain, India wasn't a unified independent nation until the 20th century.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

yeah, what Phallus said

 

[SkippyT]

The leader is english, the UU is english, the cities are english. As a consequence, my vote is no.

Ditto

No, Victoria was German. If historical accuracy is irrelevant to you then I suggest you find another mod or play a different game.

Catherine too was German. And Peter was Swedish. Isabella was Castillian. But Catherine was the czarina of Russia. Peter was the czar of Russia. Isabella was the queen of Spain. I realize Vicky was a British queen (and the empress of India) but she was born in London and lived in England (which, though, belonged to Britain) but England could work. Stalin was Georgian, right? And he was the leader of the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union is represented by Russia, isn't he? (I know he's not in RFC for the record..and this is quite off topic since he's not in the Mod this thread is about)

Anyway, isn't Liz the English leader? And she surely was English.

Edit: But I was really close, I have to say, to convert to the British-side when I read Phallus's reply. But..I voted "no" and I'll stick with my decision.

 

[Elhoim]

Phallus pwowns!

And I don´t think that Britain sounds more modern than England, for all the reasons posted before.

 

[kairob]

The leader is english, the UU is english, the cities are english. As a consequence, my vote is no.

I thought redcoats were British, I know wiki isnt worth its salt but I checked up on thier before posting and it does agree, also England really was the cultural and economic hub of Britain anyways. BTW I know this point was already mentioned but after that someone else used it in defence of keeping england so I just want to make it clear.

I realize Vicky was a British queen (and the empress of India) but she was born in London and lived in England (which, though, belonged to Britain) but England could work.

(BTW I added the bold italic and underlined bits)
I just wanted to say that as an Englishman I would say that England did not 'belong' to Britain in any way which suggests ownership

 

[Phallus]

Victoria was raised in Britain, but her first language was German and she was far better at German than she was at English or the four other languages she eventually learned.

Anyway, isn't Liz the English leader? And she surely was English.

British, as a matter of fact. As our royalty goes she was surprisingly English, but her surname is the first clue since Tudor is a Welsh name. But anyway, in RFC Victoria's the leader, and considering Britain's multicultural history she seems the perfect choice.

The leader is english, the UU is english, the cities are english. As a consequence, my vote is no.

I know this has been replied to before, but it's just so strange I think it needs addressing a few more times:

1. Out of the three leaders, none of them are exclusively English and one isn't remotely English. How much more British can you get?

2. The "Redcoat" was part of the British Army, as you may realise since the British Army has existed for hundreds of years.

3. Though the cities on a completely random list are mostly English, you can have a maximum of 3 English cities in RFC. By this logic, we should call Britain Australia.

I just wanted to say that as an Englishman I would say that England did not 'belong' to Britain in any way which suggests ownership

Well, in a fairly abstract way it did. You'd have as much representation in Manchester or Norwich as you would in Edinburgh or New York. London ran everything and it just happened that the ports and factory towns generated enough wealth to warrant attention.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Victoria is English. The fact that she was queen of the British Empire is not relevant IMO, and if anything it only proves once more how British Empire is just a name given in order to please the populations that at that time, english people considered inferior or a minority. Curiously, the fact that some people ask for the empire to be called GB in the game makes of this theme a contemporary one. Redcoats... well yeah saying redcoats were english is probably wrong. Though there's much to talk about how the army and formations were organized back then, isn't there ?
Finally, the only city not english in the city list is Cardiff, 1 on 20, so I suggest you base your considerations on facts and not impressions. For example the fact that England starts near Ireland, where Dublin sits, doesn't mean that they will necessarily be the civ that will conquer it, and anyways it does mean that since it's barbarian, it doesn't belong to the civ, which is, in fact, England.

Victoria was mostly German. "England's" flip area includes Scotland and Wales.

 

[Aeon221]

I voted no, but that was just because the other side was winning, and I'm a big fan of underdogs.

I'm pleasantly surprised that someone else pointed out that Victoria was "German" (of Hanover), and Elizabeth was Welsh (though I'll be damned if I can spell the name of the fellow that caused that). Go Phallus on that one, the "Victoria is British/English!" line had me groaning.

 

[Spearthrower]

I voted no, but that was just because the other side was winning, and I'm a big fan of underdogs.

That's a valuable method of achieving objectives!


It would seem that there is a basic line of disagreement here.

On the one hand you have mostly British citizens stating that a simple change to "Britain" would ensure that no one (Scots, Welsh, N Irish) will be offended by the misnomer.

On the other hand, you have mostly non British citizens stating that if we do this then we have to rearrange the entire game based upon falsified abstractions of the logic behind renaming this civ.

I just want to make it clear to the latter group that the British citizens are not requesting this out of patriotism but out of cultural and political sensibilities. This kind of misnomer can lead to violence in our country and certainly leads to offense. For the simple sake of changing a name (to a historically more realistic one at that), I would say that is a valid reason.

Historically, Britannia and Britons were there centuries before England and Angles, the Tudor's are welsh and the Redcoats drawn from levies across the British mainland. The term Britain better reflects the constituent parts rather than ascribing it all to the administrative centre.

 

[Chuggi]

what about Churchill, he's British? I voted yes, I changed them to British agees ago, England sounds silly