Change England to Britain

[Spearthrower]

2 - However I'd love to hear an opinion of a non-loyalist british. Such as someone from Glasgow, supporting Celtics.

I most definitely qualify as a non-loyalist. I hate nationalism in all forms. I haven't lived in my birth nation for a number of years and it's highly unlikely I'd ever go back there.

I vote yes for this because it is simply more realistic and because I know a lot of Welsh and Scottish people who take this matter very seriously. As a born Englishman, the differences didn't present themselves until I was an adult and had met/lived with a number of non-English Brits.... all I can say is that this is not in anyway a matter open to discussion to them. Calling it England is offensive.

Personally, as I already said: I hate any form of nationalism and patriotism - I prefer Planetism: I'm a citizen of the world damnit!

 

[Danger Bird]

I think a large part of the problem is the fact that naming of empires/nations/whatever they are in the civ games is extremely oversimplified and therefore just plain wrong most of the time. Very few of these political organisations called themselves "The ______ Empire". Naming is much more complex than that.

Yet the civ series uses Egyptian Empire, Russian Empire, American Empire for simpilicity. So, the equivalent of the real-life USSR, if it develops so in the game, is called "Russian Empire". Of course this is wildly inaccurate, as many other nationalities had a stake in as well, and many leaders came from other nations as well. But it is also the most accurate name possible - because it was mainly Russians who caused the USSR to be. It is certainly better than "USSR" or "Soviet Union" (imagine how that would look in 1000AD)!

Similarly, the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" (later "...Northern Ireland") and its erstwhile empire is represented in the game, over-simply, as "English Empire" -- and while this is inaccurate, it is better than calling it "Britain" or "British Empire", which would look especially silly in the early stages of the red team's development, and even in the later stages if they didn't manage to conquer Britain and Ireland.

Agreed, calling the present-day UK "England" is offensive, or more to the point, not true. But calling it "the English Empire" has some truth to it -- it was the English who were mainly responsible for creating that empire. They, of course, were not stupid enough to call it the English Empire, and neither were the creators of the USSR stupid enough to call theirs the Russian Empire. Nor did the creators of the Greater East-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere call theirs the Japanese Empire. And on and on.

So, yes, these "Empire" names are offensive (and thus were not used in real history), but they are honest. And they are the way the game names the teams. For now.

 

[SWETBANG]

I don't really mind English Empire or British Empire.

I don't understand why anyone would find England, to be offensive in the game. England is a nation, Scotland was a rivalry to England for many centuries. England is a nation and civilization in it's own right with unique history and it's language.

If anything, the Scottish should be included in the game, afterall they attempted to create an Empire overseas themselves but failed. While England was succesfully settling North American cities and colonizing parts of India.

In the game the "Romans" aren't called "Italians" are they? And Russians aren't called "Soviets".

Maybe it would be fun to add certain alliances in Civilization 5 that can only be possible with certain civs. I.e Scottish Civilization and English civilization could form a perminant alliance called "Act of the Union Alliance", both civs would be renamed "British civilization" and have share open borders and free trade agreement aswell as triggering a Golden Age. Such agreements would only be possible through deplomacy, like the United Nations diplomatic victory.

 

[McA123]

Well, the majority of this forum is in support of "British Empire", and while several arguments have been made for both names, in the end, I think numbers matter more than reasons.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Agreed totally. The concept of Britain didn't exist until somewhere between Mary, Queen of Scots and Victoria, Queen of the Waves. As the Scots fought their independence for several centuries between Mary and the Bonnie Prince, it's obvious that 'Britain' is a modern invention. I actually am quite astonished to see the number of votes for it. Do these people know their history?

More history than you:

Historically, Britannia and Britons were there centuries before England and Angles

Another reason is that the name is closer to what the ancient inhabitants called themselves: Brettons.

"Britain" in both Latin and Brythonic, pre-dates the 9th century. Even in its most archaic form, "England" barely meets this deadline.

I don't mean to sound rude but please read the thread before posting?

I hate repeating myself.

 

[Phallus]

Since the majority of people opposing this aren't from Britain and seem pretty ignorant of British History, I think I'll just give up and link to something completely irrelevant, like this.

http://www.brookview.karoo.net/BFA/

But one more thing

I don't understand why anyone would find England, to be offensive in the game. England is a nation, Scotland was a rivalry to England for many centuries.

There's your answer.

 

[SWETBANG]

There's your answer.

Exactly there is my answer....

"England is a nation, Scotland was a rivalry to England for many centuries."

i.e it's better to keep them seperate.

I should also add that Scotland had it's own language (Gaelic), own ethnicity (celtic), own king and queens, very own culture, it's own parliament, it's own government.

England's represented in game, Scotland isn't. Maybe the Scots should have done more than just invent penicillin.

 

[Abegweit]

I should also add that Scotland had it's own language (Gaelic)

This is wrong. Most Scots spoke... Scots, a language very closely related to English.


own ethnicity (celtic)

Also wrong. Scots were a confusing mixture of Picts, Celts, Angles and Danes.


own king and queens

There is a long history of common thrones between the two countries.


very own culture,

Largely made up by Scottish nationalists centuries later. In fact, there was very little difference in the culture of the various western European nations. After all, the English were Normands (French spelling intentional).


it's own parliament

What parliament did Scotland ever have?


it's own government.

At times, yes. What does any of this have to do with why the English civ should be re-named "British"

 

[Abegweit]

I hate repeating myself.

And I hate nonsense which revolves around irrelevancies. The name of the island is Britain. In France, we find Le Grand Bretagne and Le Petit Bretagne. In English (note the word... it's English, not British), they are called Britain and Brittany. Certainly there are historical reasons for the similar names.

But it is utter bullfeathers to claim that either the English or the Scottish were members of le peuple bretagne. Neither ever were and the notion of a British identity is something forged in the nineteenth century.

 

[Abegweit]

I think numbers matter more than reasons.

Seriously? I despise democracy and it's propositions like this which make me remember why.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Seriously? I despise democracy and it's propositions like this which make me remember why.

How do you suggest we sort this out then?

But it is utter bullfeathers to claim that either the English or the Scottish were members of le peuple bretagne. Neither ever were and the notion of a British identity is something forged in the nineteenth century.

The reason I am suggesting the renaming is because there is no Scotland in the game, nor would it be practical to add it. Therefore it would be fairer to rename Britain, because as it is England gets the entire island of Britain in it's flip area.

EDIT:

How do you suggest we sort this out then?

I realised this might seem a little confrontational in its wording, I didn't mean that in a sarcastic way, or to question your political beliefs. I was just interested in how you would like us to do this.

 

[Phallus]

I should also add that Scotland had it's own language (Gaelic), own ethnicity (celtic), own king and queens, very own culture, it's own parliament, it's own government.

Did you pay any attention to what I said about you painting a very simplistic picture?

But it is utter bullfeathers to claim that either the English or the Scottish were members of le peuple bretagne. Neither ever were and the notion of a British identity is something forged in the nineteenth century.

German identity!

It's strange you have to resort to a French term, since it suggests the English term wouldn't suit your argument. The Scottish and English were indeed British, but that doesn't mean I'm calling them Brythonic Celts (though plenty of Scots are descended from them). As you've pointed out, 'British' is also a cultural and geographic term which doesn't necessarily have to be political (as we can see with India, Greece, Japan, China, and so on). You seem to think 'Britain' as a term has no more significance than the 'Second Reich'.

 

[Tboy]

There seems to be a lot of yelling at each other here, and it could descend into flaming.
So, to avoid it, I'm going to try and clear it up here and now, quite clearly.
The reason a lot of people in Wales and Scotland (and Northern Ireland) find the mixing up of 'British' and 'English' quite insulting is because it sometimes lands them with the blame or responsibility for something that the English have done.

It would also be historically accurate to rename it Britain for the following reasons:
1.Ever since 1707, with the act of union of the English and Scottish parliaments, Scotland has had a voice in the decisions of the United Kingdom as a whole. While England remains the dominant member, the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish still had and have a great deal of sway over decisions made in Westminster.
2.Many famous Britsh people did not come from England, but instead Wales, Scotland and Ireland, e.g. The 1st Duke of Wellington was born Irish.

I hope this clears things up.

 

[Phallus]

A third point is to do with gameplay. Greece is called Greece because the map is far too small and brief to represent all the independent Greek states and kingdoms that existed throughout the classical world. In much the same way, England expands to the whole of Britain in the first two turns, and providing the Celts build nothing, Ireland follows shortly after.

The reason a lot of people in Wales and Scotland (and Northern Ireland) find the mixing up of 'British' and 'English' quite insulting is because it sometimes lands them with the blame or responsibility for something that the English have done.

Having a lot of Welsh and Irish ancestors, I can say the rest of it is bitterness that they were left out.

 

[Elhoim]

Seriously? I despise democracy and it's propositions like this which make me remember why.

The thing is that this is not a democracy, just a poll for a dictatorial leader. Rhye will weight both numbers AND reasons, and do whatever he pleases.

 

[SWETBANG]

So, to avoid it, I'm going to try and clear it up here and now, quite clearly.
The reason a lot of people in Wales and Scotland (and Northern Ireland) find the mixing up of 'British' and 'English' quite insulting is because it sometimes lands them with the blame or responsibility for something that the English have done.

I don't think that's cleared anything up.

I know a lot of Scots blaming the wrong doings of the British Empire on the English. So who's Empire was it? Englands?

The game doesn't represent Britain though anyway, it just represents England. People are mislead into thinking it's Britain maybe because there was is "English Empire". Well the English settled north american cities and colonized parts of India before the union of England and Scotland.

Wales is represented anyway. The Act of the Union was between the Kingdom of England and Kingdom of Scotland. Wales was already part of England.

It's not like the games includes the British Empire at all. Just England by itself.

It would also be historically accurate to rename it Britain for the following reasons:
1.Ever since 1707

Yeah, ever since 1707.

Having a lot of Welsh and Irish ancestors, I can say the rest of it is bitterness that they were left out.

Well Wales aren't left out

and I don't think the Irish like to be called "British".

I have Irish and Welsh ancestors btw. But I can see why Englands in the game as a seperate nation.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

But I can see why England's in the game as a separate nation.

That's the point though, isn't it? it isn't a Separate Nation, It's the Only Nation in the British isles. The Welsh and Scottish cities are automatically flipped to England on the second turn.

Also, the occupants of the Britain were called British in various Latin forms way before the Angles.

Are you British, I'm just curious, since the trend seems to be that British people are mostly in favour. As has been said before, Americans often use British and English as interchangeable, but if you live here, you know the offense it can cause to use the wrong one, and somehow it just seems wrong.

 

[Abegweit]

Having a lot of Welsh and Irish ancestors, I can say the rest of it is bitterness that they were left out.

As a Canadian of Scottish origin, I guess that makes me left out twice, doesn't it? That still doesn't mean that the British Empire was founded in 820 AD.

The reason a lot of people in Wales and Scotland (and Northern Ireland) find the mixing up of 'British' and 'English' quite insulting is because it sometimes lands them with the blame or responsibility for something that the English have done.

The fact that the mix up takes place and that people get insulted about it says a lot about what the real state of affairs is.

You would think that it would be the nationalists (especially those who favour independence) who would argue that the British Empire never existed, just as Quebec separatists argue that there it is no such thing as the Canadian nation. It always was the English Empire and now the Home Provinces are finally leaving just as all the others did.

Do you think that Ukrainian nationalists would support changing the name of the civ from Russia to the Soviet Union in order to be included?

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

That still doesn't mean that the British Empire was founded in 820 AD.

Neither was the English Empire It was split into about 5 countries back then.

 

[Abegweit]

The correct number is seven kingdoms. I find the modern habit of conflating state and nation to be quite disturbing. England existed before Wessex absorbed the others, just at Germany existed long before Bismark.

In any case, the game is about expansion and empire. Other empires, like the Russian and American ones, simply overran their neighbours, while England and Germany came out of the unification of similar peoples. France is a bit of both.

Now if you want to argue that there is such a thing as a British nation, you are welcome to do so. Unlike the English nation, which evolved gradually out of the German nation, the British nation (to the extent that it exists at all) started rather abruptly in the late eighteenth century.