Change Spain to an exploration Civ.

[Ticio]

I think that the new heroes mode bring something interesting to the table!
Sinbad's ability to gain gold from continental and wonders discoveries could fit perfectly for a Portugal ability/unit like the Nao or special caravel.

I personally hope is a hint that they are testing an ability to add to Portugal, meaning they will end in NFP or a new DLC.
In the worst case scenario they could add it to Spain and have some kind of “explorer” civ onto the game (they could give it to the Spanish galleon and/or explorers as suggested in the main original post!).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I feel like Portugal will most likely be the civ in March with a similar ability to Sinbad and Feitorias acting like coastal Vampire Castles.

 

[Ticio]

I feel like Portugal will most likely be the civ in March with a similar ability to Sinbad and Feitorias acting like coastal Vampire Castles.

I have the same feeling, but having the feeling that Portugal will be... I would prefer that they are not in NFP, this way we will have another pack (I normally do not like them, but I really like Civ vi, I hope we have something more before Civ vii)

 

[Josephias]

As many of my ideas here come from thinking about @Ticio 's comments in other threads, I think it is worth I copy and expand them in here too:


As it is commented too in ohter posts of this thread, I think one of the biggest fails or Spain is its trade CUA is not that rewarding.

However, instead of proposing an improvement based on lenght of the trade route, my proposal would require intercontinental expansion. I think this brings forward Spain's strong focus on actually settling and governing the new explored lands, by setting up specific laws, governors, administrations, etc.
Treasure fleets were huge targets because they cummulated the wealth of all the continent in a single voyage. Internal trade routes would end in Veracruz or Cartagena (de Indias), and then the fleet was assembled and sent to spain (Cadiz, Seville), were it split again to the final destinations.
This gave me the idea of increasing the bonus of treasure fleets depending on how much cities you own in the continents at the two sides of the route. (it could also be in non-home continent, but I think it balances better if you consider both sides). The "level" of the route would be the number of cities that is less in each of the two continents. So in example

• A route between a continent with 5 spanish cities and a continent with 1 spanish city would be level 1 (basic yield bonus), as one continent has just a single city
• A route between a continent with 4 spanish cities and a continent with 2 spanish cities would be level 2 (2x yield bonus)
• A route between a continent with 3 spanish cities and a continent with 3 spanish cities would be level 3 (3x yield bonus)
• An (international) trade route to a continent were Spain has not settled will lose the bonus. (0 cities, level 0, 0x yield)

I suppose it should be capped somehow so after a number of cities the bonus could stop or increase in smaller steps.

This will push expain to really want to expand into different continents for increased rewards. It will be a risky strategy, but a different gameplay style and with a reward that pays the risk. Also, as you increase the trade route bonus, you could also increase the pillage yield, as suggested in Ticio's routes, to attract piracy


Loyalty issues out of a "expand in at least two different continents" strategy should be handled (as Spain did), by religion. For Spain it could be considering doubling both the loyalty bonuses for same religion. And also the loyalty maluses for different religion. Spain's zealotry was not that much a matter of piety than of asserting the king's authority, as many foreign religions practices were associated -in some cases correctly- to external threats (islam to Ottomans, protestantism to England and France, and -in the case of Charles V, I in Spain - to nobles wanting to get independence / preeminence onthe HRE). The fact you need to negate this penalty and ensure your bonus would make the inquisitor bonuses more worthwile.
You may add, as commented in the other thread, a culture bonus for cities following only Spain's religion (something similar to the +culture of the monument in fully loyal cities)


As Spain relies in religion, it makes sense to give them a GPP bonus to found one. However, as commented in the other thread, I think it not needs to be straightforward to be one of the first founders and pick beliefs, as its gameplay is not that directly religion-focused, but more indirectly. I would make them have some kind of "late religion" bonus (in the same sense Arabia gets always the last religion, but not that strict).

My first idea on the subject is giving them a boost on GPP that increases with more religions being founded (or, at least, found), linking it to the Treasure Fleet trade route gameplay, I suggested giving them a big GPP boost if trading with a civ wich already has a religion. (maybe +3 or +5 great prophet pts. per trade route). A more simpler approach (sill linked to exploration) would be to give them a GPP boost or a big lump sum of GPP each time they met a civ with a religion. That is: Spain will have no direct bonuses to start the great prophet race, but will push as it discovers there are less options to get one, in order to reach the finish line before they run out.


Last, a pair of mission changes. To help with the "focus" issue in Spain's start, mission unloc could be shifted to Teology, but only with the faith production, and maybe an additional help to missionaries and religious units (e.g., as the name implies, +1 religious charge to missionaries, and maybe to inquisitors under Philip's LUA). Missions woud still need spain to focus in exploration to shine, so I'll keep the loyalty and science bonuses locked until that civic is researched.
And, I don't find this that necessary, but since many other civs are getting them too: Mission could be a good candidate for a "soft" culture bomb (as Gaul's mines have: get unclaimed tiles, but not these already owned by other civs).

 

[oSiyeza]

An lternative leader will solve many of the issues.

I agree completely, Spain had an remarcable contribution to the world in the Age of Exploration and Discovery (small things such the discovery of America or first circunnavegation of the world...) a great Scientific and cultural legacy (first psychiatric center, first electric submarine, first spacesuit, first helicopter, first epidural, first working parachute, first electronic book, first digital calculator ...), and was one of the biggest military empires of the world.

Far from being a civilization dominated by religion, for centuries achieved a rich and peaceful integration of Muslim And Christian societies, Roman and Pagan societies or Goth and Christian societies. To represent Spain only by its worst legacy. And a complete charicature of such in addition, as I find dishonest to use the stereotipe that Spain was fundamentaly more religious than any other European Empire of the time, is honestly one of the reasons I have never, and will not play Spain (my country) in Civilization.

As a Spanish, that Civ does not represent anything I associate with my country. At least I could play Portugal if they added it...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

An lternative leader will solve many of the issues.

I agree completely, Spain had an insane contrubution to the world in the Age of Explortion and Discovery (small things such the discovery of America or first circunnavegation of the world...) a great Scientific and cultural legacy (first psychiatric center, first electric submarine, first spacesuit, first helicopter, first epidural, first working parachute ...), and was one of the biggest military empires of the world.

Far from being a civilization dominated by religion, for centuries achieved a rich and peaciful integration of Muslim And Christian societies, Roman and Pagan societies or Goth and Christian societies. To represent Spain only by its worst legacy, and a complete charicature of such in addition. As I found dishonest to use the stereotipe that Spain was fundamentaly more religious than any other European Empire of the time, is honestly one of the reasons I have never, and will not play Spain (my country) in Civilization.

As an Spanish that Civ does not represent anything I associate with my country. At least I could play Portugal if they added it...

That's interesting because from my perspective, Spain to me is one of the best designed civ when it comes to portraying it's history.

Of course that is probably because most of my history classes I've taken have mainly talked about Spain with the view of them colonizing the New World and spreading Catholicism to all the natives with their mission programs. And of course where I live we still have that legacy today.

 

[oSiyeza]

That's interesting because from my perspective, Spain to me is one of the best designed civ when it comes to portraying it's history.

Of course that is probably because most of my history classes I've taken have mainly talked about Spain with the view of them colonizing the New World and spreading Catholicism to all the natives with their mission programs. And of course where I live we still have that legacy today.

Yes its very frequent that history of a foreign country gets reduced to only one thing. And yes colonies and spreading Catholicism had a remarkable influence in how the world is shaped. Funny enough Portuguese, Italians, French and English did exactly the same thing. In the end everybody knows the Spanish inquisition, and the dictatorship prevented Spain from having a real presence in the World Wars. But portraying the Spanish civization by their most negative chapters while most other European nations receive a more gentle representation, is honestly something I dislike and something I don’t feel any Spanish person would identify with. As I think others also would feel the same if for example the English were represented as a religious nation for spreading Christianism in India, Africa, and North America. Or Portuguese people for doing the like in Brazil and Africa as well.

It is also a misconception that people think of Spain as a religious society, we are not, but we often get mistaken for Latin South Americans. The fact is that Spain is a very secular country. While with a remarkable presence of Catholicism, most of the population are non practicant. Which is, most people do not engage in any religious activity. And after the genocide of hundreds of thousands by the Catholic dictatorship (leftist, liberals and non theists), still were among the first countries in the world to legalize gay marriage, or depenalize abortion. So I would argue is a far more sensitive issue for Spain than for other countries, that should have been handled with more care, and less of a stereotype.

And lets not talk about the original Bull icon, which probably 80% of the country would find offensive, as bullfighting only represents a tradition in one of the 17 Spanish regions, being considered immoral or illegal in most other ones.

Of course is not that Spain did not have that role, that happened, most of the world was dominated by religion at one time, and certainly all Europe was at the same level of Spain. The issue is that is not representative of what Spain actually is or has been. I guess in fairness, you could represent US or any other civ as a religious civilization. And being the religious game in civilization such a parody of what religion is certainly does not help.

 

[Josephias]

It is true that making Spain plain religious is cliché and neglects many other points of the civ, but I don't think civ VI makes a bad job portraying what was the Civ at certain point, neither I think its religious portrayal being made in a negative way (except in some minor points that will be comented below).

Fact is fact, Spain (at least the medieval-renaissance Spain in which we focus when we consider the Civ), has the religion as its sign of identity: "Spain" is an old (roman) idea, but it is recovered during the Reconquista as a way to identify the Christian iberian kingdoms and provide a reason of unity against the Moors. The Reconquista itself is a cornerstone in the history of Spain, and it was a Crusade. As for the Inquisition, which is maybe the point that is always portrayed in a darker shade, it is worth to remark that, in difference to other countries, it was the "Spanish" inquisition (actually, the Aragonese inquisiton and the Castillian inquisition), and not the "Roman" inquisition, which was the one normally operating. Spain got the permit from the Pope to direct the operations of its inquisition, something other countries did not. This is remarkable in its own sense, yet often misunderestood/misinterpreted - as commented in one of my post above, it is not the inquisition was so important due to Spanish people zealotry... it was so important because it was a tool of the state. And the state itself (albeit the usually selected leaders, Philip II and Isabella, count among the more pious), was not that involved in religion due to zealotry as well... but because religion was a tool to "unite" the differen iberian (and european, specially in the case of Charles V / I) kingdoms and peoples into a common idea.

Were it comes then the offensive portrayal oSiyeza is speaking about? Well, in insisting in the idea of zealotry, (as when -and here comes one of the announced minor points, which can indeed be seen as highly offensive, but it is so minor that often is overlooked - Philip is one of the few leaders who show disdain of your embassadors, calling them "heretic", instead of acting courtly as most leaders), or when Inquisition is taken out of its medieval context (it is not only other countries had inquisitions acting in them - it is too, that the "secular" justice of the time was no better than the inquisition in terms of abuse and punishment, and that the craziness about "cleaning the heretics" was not just a catholic thing, but many protestant churches, were they were powerful, did the same). Why, then, the spanish are such villianous, devilish religious zealots? well, it is the lens, and if we talk a lot about Civ's look at history as it being eurocentric, we may even push it a bit further as it being anglocentric. And if history is looked at from an anglo-saxon point of view, the we (good) vs evil (them) struggle in the renaissance is protestantism (we) vs catolicism (them). And Spain is the champion of catolicism at that age (that is is golden age), so we need to reflect anything that is evil in this strugle (mainy religious zealotry and intolerance, and of course burning people) in them. But it is often overlooked the same zeal was applied on the other side as well.

Coming back to civ portrayal: if we discarding that other "minor" point that is using the bull head as symbol, which as highly cliché and focusing in a vanished tradition that I would classify it of not really offensive, but kitsch (consider it as using a winchester rifle to represent the US, in example, or a Pickelhaube to represent germany, or even a guillotine to represent France), I do not see Civ VI portrayal being that "spain is religion and nothing more".

• Yes, Spain has a UU that gets bonuses from religion, but it is a unique mechanic and, I would say, not that offensive. To be more true to the hard truth, Conquistador's should have Harald's pillaging bonuses, and gain strengt, not from religion, but for attacking whealty cities.. Indeed the fact they "collaborate" with the religious unit and "convert" ties more with a romanticised version of the Conquistadors "convincing" the natives to join them. Which might have been a true and successful strategy for some Conquistadors, as far as we can retrieve from history, but probably not the "common" behaviour.
• Yes, Spain has a religious UI in the mission, but Firaxis had the idea of (Heresy! said some years ago) giving the missions science. As with Arabia, this breaks the dichotomy that makes some religions backwards, and atheism (or more "individual" religions as protestant ones) a beacon of progress. And it recognices that Spain -even the religious side of spain-, could work to learn and underestand the world around them and it is not a bunch of brainwashed zealots.
• The Civilization Ability, Treasure Fleets, moves away from the religious trope, and focuses in the organization (and explotation of resources, in the other side) of the Spanish Empire. Getting the Archivo de Indias wonder (although not part of Spanish civ, it is a Spanish representation), highlights even more Spain was not only religion, and did take seriously managing an overseas empire (this is: it was not I'm there just to convert the natives).
• The inquisition and religious confrontation appears as LUA, and being Philip II the "defender of the faith", it can be sen fitting. Also, it is just doing better what other civs do (Not that spain has inquisitors and the other civs not).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It is also a misconception that people think of Spain as a religious society, we are not, but we often get mistaken for Latin South Americans. The fact is that Spain is a very secular country. While with a remarkable presence of Catholicism, most of the population are non practicant. Which is, most people do not engage in any religious activity. And after the genocide of hundreds of thousands by the Catholic dictatorship (leftist, liberals and non theists), still were among the first countries in the world to legalize gay marriage, or depenalize abortion. So I would argue is a far more sensitive issue for Spain than for other countries, that should have been handled with more care, and less of a stereotype.

Even if Spain is a very secular society today, which I feel most of Europe is, I feel like the bonuses are justifiable considering the leader choice of Phillip II.

And lets not talk about the original Bull icon, which probably 80% of the country would find offensive, as bullfighting only represents a tradition in one of the 17 Spanish regions, being considered immoral or illegal in most other ones.

Isn't that based off of the Osborne bull and not bullfighting? I'm not saying it's the best icon for Spain but I didn't find it to be offensive.

Of course is not that Spain did not have that role, that happened, most of the world was dominated by religion at one time, and certainly all Europe was at the same level of Spain. The issue is that is not representative of what Spain actually is or has been. I guess in fairness, you could represent US or any other civ as a religious civilization. And being the religious game in civilization such a parody of what religion is certainly does not help.

When it comes to gameplay it's obvious they wanted to show off the new religious victory. I guess there were a handful of possible civilizations to choose from and Spain really fit what they were looking for, especially under Phillip II, who ruled under the Golden Age of Spain.
At the same time I feel like there might have been more of an outrage if instead they chose Arabia to be the more zealous and militaristic civ.

 

[oSiyeza]

Even if Spain is a very secular society today, which I feel most of Europe is, I feel like the bonuses are justifiable considering the leader choice of Phillip II.
Isn't that based off of the Osborne bull and not bullfighting? I'm not saying it's the best icon for Spain but I didn't find it to be offensive.
When it comes to gameplay it's obvious they wanted to show off the new religious victory. I guess there were a handful of possible civilizations to choose from and Spain really fit what they were looking for, especially under Phillip II, who ruled under the Golden Age of Spain.
At the same time I feel like there might have been more of an outrage if instead they chose Arabia to be the more zealous and militaristic civ.

The problem is not with the symbol itself, but what the symbol represents. To understand why many people would not like it, you need to understand how big and diverse Spain is. For example, if you think Spanish Guitar is the folk music of Spain, you would be surprised that if you go to the north, folk music is not made with guitars but pipes and flutes. Something that was carried out to present times.

The same happens with food, weather, and pretty much every tradition you know about.

Regarding the Osborne bull, while it is true that it is a beloved and iconic image, with a lot of artistic value, It is also true that it is nothing but the marketing logotype of a wine and brandy company designed in the 1950s. Owned by a family group who possessed big pieces of land, due to the feudal-like land ownership that was used in the plains of the south of Spain.

As iconic and cool as it may be, I don’t think you can represent a civilization of a 1000 years with the logotype of a brandy company of said country from the times of the dictatorship. While the icon itself is not offensive (at least to me), you would not want the icon of the US to be the Coke logo. Or a representation of a tradition that most people dislike. Even if such tradition is iconic.

The thing is Spain is a confederation of diverse regions, and before that, was an amalgamation of kingdoms with 4 official languages, and an insane complexity of traditions. Pretty much most of the stereotypes people hold of Spain represent only a small piece of very specific regions of Spain.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Regarding the Osborne bull, while it is a beloved and iconic image, but is only the marketing logotype of a wine and brandy company designed in the 1950s. Owned by a family group who possessed big pieces of land, due to the feudal like land ownership that was used at the time in the plains of Spain.

As iconic and cool as it may be, I don’t think you can represent a civilization of a 1000 years with the logotype of a brandy company of said country from the times of the dictatorship.

The thing is Spain is a confederation of diverse regions, and before that, was an amalgamation of kingdoms with 4 official languages, and an insane complexity of traditions. Pretty much most of the stereotypes people hold of Spain represent only a small piece of very specific regions of Spain.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. I mean it wouldn't have been my first pick of Spain's icon but I at least on first glance it seems better than the Civ 5 version which was just a Catholic Cross.
This Icon here, which was a custom one for Civ 5, is probably the best one that would fit Spain well being the symbol of the Kingdom of Castille. Of course it would need to change to red and yellow.

 

[Ticio]

As many of my ideas here come from thinking about @Ticio 's comments in other threads, I think it is worth I copy and expand them in here too:


As it is commented too in ohter posts of this thread, I think one of the biggest fails or Spain is its trade CUA is not that rewarding.

However, instead of proposing an improvement based on lenght of the trade route, my proposal would require intercontinental expansion. I think this brings forward Spain's strong focus on actually settling and governing the new explored lands, by setting up specific laws, governors, administrations, etc.
Treasure fleets were huge targets because they cummulated the wealth of all the continent in a single voyage. Internal trade routes would end in Veracruz or Cartagena (de Indias), and then the fleet was assembled and sent to spain (Cadiz, Seville), were it split again to the final destinations.
This gave me the idea of increasing the bonus of treasure fleets depending on how much cities you own in the continents at the two sides of the route. (it could also be in non-home continent, but I think it balances better if you consider both sides). The "level" of the route would be the number of cities that is less in each of the two continents. So in example

• A route between a continent with 5 spanish cities and a continent with 1 spanish city would be level 1 (basic yield bonus), as one continent has just a single city
• A route between a continent with 4 spanish cities and a continent with 2 spanish cities would be level 2 (2x yield bonus)
• A route between a continent with 3 spanish cities and a continent with 3 spanish cities would be level 3 (3x yield bonus)
• An (international) trade route to a continent were Spain has not settled will lose the bonus. (0 cities, level 0, 0x yield)

I suppose it should be capped somehow so after a number of cities the bonus could stop or increase in smaller steps.

This will push expain to really want to expand into different continents for increased rewards. It will be a risky strategy, but a different gameplay style and with a reward that pays the risk. Also, as you increase the trade route bonus, you could also increase the pillage yield, as suggested in Ticio's routes, to attract piracy


Loyalty issues out of a "expand in at least two different continents" strategy should be handled (as Spain did), by religion. For Spain it could be considering doubling both the loyalty bonuses for same religion. And also the loyalty maluses for different religion. Spain's zealotry was not that much a matter of piety than of asserting the king's authority, as many foreign religions practices were associated -in some cases correctly- to external threats (islam to Ottomans, protestantism to England and France, and -in the case of Charles V, I in Spain - to nobles wanting to get independence / preeminence onthe HRE). The fact you need to negate this penalty and ensure your bonus would make the inquisitor bonuses more worthwile.
You may add, as commented in the other thread, a culture bonus for cities following only Spain's religion (something similar to the +culture of the monument in fully loyal cities)


As Spain relies in religion, it makes sense to give them a GPP bonus to found one. However, as commented in the other thread, I think it not needs to be straightforward to be one of the first founders and pick beliefs, as its gameplay is not that directly religion-focused, but more indirectly. I would make them have some kind of "late religion" bonus (in the same sense Arabia gets always the last religion, but not that strict).

My first idea on the subject is giving them a boost on GPP that increases with more religions being founded (or, at least, found), linking it to the Treasure Fleet trade route gameplay, I suggested giving them a big GPP boost if trading with a civ wich already has a religion. (maybe +3 or +5 great prophet pts. per trade route). A more simpler approach (sill linked to exploration) would be to give them a GPP boost or a big lump sum of GPP each time they met a civ with a religion. That is: Spain will have no direct bonuses to start the great prophet race, but will push as it discovers there are less options to get one, in order to reach the finish line before they run out.


Last, a pair of mission changes. To help with the "focus" issue in Spain's start, mission unloc could be shifted to Teology, but only with the faith production, and maybe an additional help to missionaries and religious units (e.g., as the name implies, +1 religious charge to missionaries, and maybe to inquisitors under Philip's LUA). Missions woud still need spain to focus in exploration to shine, so I'll keep the loyalty and science bonuses locked until that civic is researched.
And, I don't find this that necessary, but since many other civs are getting them too: Mission could be a good candidate for a "soft" culture bomb (as Gaul's mines have: get unclaimed tiles, but not these already owned by other civs).

I find your suggestions very fitting! If it is okay with you, I would add them to the main post (I will put them entirely, as they are a full corpus). I'm not a programmer, so I don't know if they could implement the design of the routes modifying according to the numbers of cities, but for sure it is a way to make the yields more interesting but more challenging!

My favorite one is the loyalty depending of religion. This one is a “must have” for sure and, as you say, would make inquisitor worth it. It would make conquering/funding new cities in other continents more viable (+ loyalty) and more in tone with the gameplay. It would not be OP thanks to the malus for other religions. I really like it!

 

[Josephias]

I find your suggestions very fitting! If it is okay with you, I would add them to the main post (I will put them entirely, as they are a full corpus)

Sure, feel free to use them. I shared them to contribute

 

[oSiyeza]

I'm not disagreeing with you there. I mean it wouldn't have been my first pick of Spain's icon but I at least on first glance it seems better than the Civ 5 version which was just a Catholic Cross.
This Icon here, which was a custom one for Civ 5, is probably the best one that would fit Spain well being the symbol of the Kingdom of Castille. Of course it would need to change to red and yellow.

This would be indeed a fitting icon. One of the main kingdoms that got together to form what is to many the first unified kingdom of Spain, was the Kingdom of Castilla (meaning land of castles) which would not be a fitting word for the kingdom of Castilla, but the overall structure of all what was indeed a kingdom of kingdoms, with a lot of royal houses with their power emanating from their castles.

Also the suggestions to not only prime religion but more trade and exploration, would be better. As indeed, the gold extracted from America and the trade with Asia was the source of the power of the empire, not so much the religious colonialism.

Religious colonialism if only, contributed to the downfall of the empire, as colonies started revolutions against the Spanish tyranny, while the empire was engulfed by corruption and became incapable of paying the debts of war. Culminating with the disaster of the Invincible armada, due to mishandling the decision-making positions by favoring nobility and disregarding experienced captains, that lead to the biggest armada in the world being effectively destroyed by a storm on its way to fight the English navy.

Talking about history changing events due to random events combined with bad policies... how different history would have been if that storm did not happen or the invasion had been delayed...

 

[Ticio]

It is true that making Spain plain religious is cliché and neglects many other points of the civ, but I don't think civ VI makes a bad job portraying what was the Civ at certain point, neither I think its religious portrayal being made in a negative way (except in some minor points that will be comented below).

Fact is fact, Spain (at least the medieval-renaissance Spain in which we focus when we consider the Civ), has the religion as its sign of identity: "Spain" is an old (roman) idea, but it is recovered during the Reconquista as a way to identify the Christian iberian kingdoms and provide a reason of unity against the Moors. The Reconquista itself is a cornerstone in the history of Spain, and it was a Crusade. As for the Inquisition, which is maybe the point that is always portrayed in a darker shade, it is worth to remark that, in difference to other countries, it was the "Spanish" inquisition (actually, the Aragonese inquisiton and the Castillian inquisition), and not the "Roman" inquisition, which was the one normally operating. Spain got the permit from the Pope to direct the operations of its inquisition, something other countries did not. This is remarkable in its own sense, yet often misunderestood/misinterpreted - as commented in one of my post above, it is not the inquisition was so important due to Spanish people zealotry... it was so important because it was a tool of the state. And the state itself (albeit the usually selected leaders, Philip II and Isabella, count among the more pious), was not that involved in religion due to zealotry as well... but because religion was a tool to "unite" the differen iberian (and european, specially in the case of Charles V / I) kingdoms and peoples into a common idea.

Were it comes then the offensive portrayal oSiyeza is speaking about? Well, in insisting in the idea of zealotry, (as when -and here comes one of the announced minor points, which can indeed be seen as highly offensive, but it is so minor that often is overlooked - Philip is one of the few leaders who show disdain of your embassadors, calling them "heretic", instead of acting courtly as most leaders), or when Inquisition is taken out of its medieval context (it is not only other countries had inquisitions acting in them - it is too, that the "secular" justice of the time was no better than the inquisition in terms of abuse and punishment, and that the craziness about "cleaning the heretics" was not just a catholic thing, but many protestant churches, were they were powerful, did the same). Why, then, the spanish are such villianous, devilish religious zealots? well, it is the lens, and if we talk a lot about Civ's look at history as it being eurocentric, we may even push it a bit further as it being anglocentric. And if history is looked at from an anglo-saxon point of view, the we (good) vs evil (them) struggle in the renaissance is protestantism (we) vs catolicism (them). And Spain is the champion of catolicism at that age (that is is golden age), so we need to reflect anything that is evil in this strugle (mainy religious zealotry and intolerance, and of course burning people) in them. But it is often overlooked the same zeal was applied on the other side as well.

Coming back to civ portrayal: if we discarding that other "minor" point that is using the bull head as symbol, which as highly cliché and focusing in a vanished tradition that I would classify it of not really offensive, but kitsch (consider it as using a winchester rifle to represent the US, in example, or a Pickelhaube to represent germany, or even a guillotine to represent France), I do not see Civ VI portrayal being that "spain is religion and nothing more".

• Yes, Spain has a UU that gets bonuses from religion, but it is a unique mechanic and, I would say, not that offensive. To be more true to the hard truth, Conquistador's should have Harald's pillaging bonuses, and gain strengt, not from religion, but for attacking whealty cities.. Indeed the fact they "collaborate" with the religious unit and "convert" ties more with a romanticised version of the Conquistadors "convincing" the natives to join them. Which might have been a true and successful strategy for some Conquistadors, as far as we can retrieve from history, but probably not the "common" behaviour.
• Yes, Spain has a religious UI in the mission, but Firaxis had the idea of (Heresy! said some years ago) giving the missions science. As with Arabia, this breaks the dichotomy that makes some religions backwards, and atheism (or more "individual" religions as protestant ones) a beacon of progress. And it recognices that Spain -even the religious side of spain-, could work to learn and underestand the world around them and it is not a bunch of brainwashed zealots.
• The Civilization Ability, Treasure Fleets, moves away from the religious trope, and focuses in the organization (and explotation of resources, in the other side) of the Spanish Empire. Getting the Archivo de Indias wonder (although not part of Spanish civ, it is a Spanish representation), highlights even more Spain was not only religion, and did take seriously managing an overseas empire (this is: it was not I'm there just to convert the natives).
• The inquisition and religious confrontation appears as LUA, and being Philip II the "defender of the faith", it can be sen fitting. Also, it is just doing better what other civs do (Not that spain has inquisitors and the other civs not).

I have to agree with you in almost everything! Very well explained.

Personally, I always thought that Spain has this image of "zealots" because they never had a serious conflict based on religion inside their territories (of course, the Netherlands but they were too far away and very close to the reformation movement).
And for sure, the inquisition played a key role on maintaining this "Pax Hispanica". In a time were religious wars were happening in almost all Europeans territories is quite surprising almost none happened in the Spanish territories.
This can give an image of fanatism of the Spanish state during this period but also the population. As John Elliot wrote, the population was very conscious of the "Spain is the defender of christianity and true faith" mentality, and the revolts of the 1640's were due to centralization, never religion. Protestantism never gained an inch inside the spanish monarchies (Amercias, Iberian peninsula, Italian territories, etc.)

So, I think it is a combination of many things; the inquisition as a control tool for the state, the population believing they were choose by god to defend Catholicism (post Reconquista mentality), and also propaganda that shaped this image of an Spanish zealot country.

I personally do not care, is an image that has is base on truths (exaggerations too), and the portraying of CIV VI Spain it very fitting.
They did a pretty good job! Common! Treasure fleets, inquisition, missions, early armadas and more CS against other religions!! For me it is just perfect!! Stereotypes? well... all civs bonuses are based on stereotypes...

The only thing I do not agree with is the bull symbol. At the end of the day is a symbol that represent Spain. Not the bullfighting per se, but Spain. It is the symbol of the famous Osborne's wines (that you can see in the landscapes), Spaniards always say that Spain's shape in a map is like a bull skin... even the Legio X "Hispana" had a bull as symbol. Is something you cannot differentiate anymore, Spain=Bull.

Even today, the stereotypical flag for big events is the one with the bull instead of the royal emblem. So, I think it is okay that they put a bull as a “representation”.

P.S: The only time I thought that they were a little insensitive in Civ VI, was with the addition of the Pirates mode. When I read all the descriptions of the civs on the mod and for Spain they specified, "The Spanish Empire is very corrupt and unequal" (or something close to that)… As it was different for other States during this period.... corrupt and unequal? yes... more than others? I do not think so, not at least to add a specific line saying that.
Hell, maybe the pirates are the good guys, uhm? Fighting against this corrupt and unjust empire!
Apart for that, I think they have made a very good job with every civ so far (even Spain).

This would be indeed a fitting icon. One of the main kingdoms that got together to form what is to many the first unified kingdom of Spain, was the Kingdom of Castilla (meaning land of castles) which would not be a fitting word for the kingdom of Castilla, but the overall structure of all what was indeed a kingdom of kingdoms, with a lot of royal houses with their power emanating from their castles.

Also the suggestions to not only prime religion but more trade and exploration, would be better. As indeed, the gold extracted from america was the source of the power of the empire empire, not so much the religious colonialism, that contributed to its downfall also due to the inhability of pay the debts of war, with the disaster of the Invincible armada, due to mishandling the decission making positions favoring nobility and disregarding experienced capitains, that lead to the biggest armada in the world being efectively destroyed by a storm on its way to fight the english navy.

Only adding the castle could be a problem, as other people could see that their traditional kingdoms are being ignored (Navarre?Aragón? granada? and being Phillip II the leader... Portugal? Italians kingdoms? etc). And I'm thinking that everyone sees castile as the conglomerate of Leon, Castile, Galicia, and so on...

 

[oSiyeza]

Only adding the castle could be a problem, as other people could see that their traditional kingdoms are being ignored (Navarre?Aragón? granada? and being Phillip II the leader... Portugal? Italians kingdoms? etc). And I'm thinking that everyone sees castile as the conglomerate of Leon, Castile, Galicia, and so on...

I doubt it, a castle does not carry the same connotations, and is symbol much more neutral and more representative of the time and politics.

Also, the full name of Leon is Castilla Leon, we have indeed two Castillas. Other particularities are that Portugal and Galicia were the same kingdom for centuries, includding a part of Leon, and the royal house of the kingdom was contending to the throne of Castilla by born rights. Also Portugal was part of the Kingdom of Philip II for a while. In the same way Castilla and Aragon were at times a single kingdom. The kingdom of Navarra later turned as the Kingdom of Aragon, while Cordoba was more time a Califate than a Kingdom, till the christian spanish the land as a part of the Kingdom of Castilla, starting from the Kingdom of Asturias. So kingdoms were everything but stable at the time.

Regardless seing Castilla as a conglomerate of the other Kingdoms is indeed just a common misconception, as the wordings get often confuse by the complexity of the relations between the kingdoms. While it is true that Granada, and the Galician Leon kingdoms were eventually conquered by Castilla, that was just the end of those Kingdoms as such. On the other hand the kingdom of Asturias was anexed by Leon, and Navarra by Aragon. The Kingdom of Spain raised by the union by marriage of Castilla and Aragon (meaning the end of Castilla and Aragon as kingdoms). And to make matters worse Portugal was a part of Galicia and Leon first, and later a part of Spain under Felipe II. Being a separated kingdom the rest of the time; and a part of Italy was conquered by Aragon for a while.

While the kingdoms existed they where separated entities with separated royal houses and complex relationships with the other kingdoms. And the royal families persisted inside of the unified Kingdom, sometimes as side goverments. Think of Game of Thrones, but more complex. xD

 

[Aurelesk]

I guess it is possible to shovel almost all religious traits to Philip II, while having Spain focus more on colonisation. For example:

El Escorial (Philip II bonus):
+50% Production torward Holy Site Prayers, that triple Religious Pressure. +5 Combat Strength against civilizations not following Spain's majority Religion. Settling or conquering cities convert to Spain's majority Religion. +1 Loyalty for each Population following Spain's majority Religion, and -1 Loyalty for each Population following other Religions.

Treasure Fleet (Spain's ability):
May from Fleets and Armadas faster without the Seaport building after unlocking the Mercantilism Civic. Your Trade Routes generate +1 Gold for every 5 tiles they travel. Trade range on water is doubled.

Conquistador (Spain's unique unit):
Spanish unique Renaissance era unit that replaces the Musketman. +1 sight range. +2 Movement and +10 CS when embarked. All terrain tiles cost 1 Movement. Can found a City.

Mission (Spain's unique tile improvement):
Unlocks the Builder ability to construct a Mission after gaining the Theology Civic, unique to Spain.
+2 Faith, +0.5 Housing, +20 HP healing for the Spanish units on the tile.
+1 Science for every adjacent Campus and Holy Site (Education)
+1 Faith, +1 Food and +1 Production on foreign Continent (Exploration)
+1 Science on the home Continent (Scientific Theory)
+1 Science (Cultural Heritage)
Tourism from Faith once Flight is researched.

This is just a draft. Feel free to criticize, improve or dismiss the whole idea. It is still a Philip II civilization, since his legacy was religion wars, and Armadas financed by his far away colonies, and the whole civilization is still like this. But I guess it is still fun.

A lot of people did the comparison between Byzantium and Spain. It is both true that both use Religion for Domination goal. There is one huge difference: Byzantium want to share it, but Spain does not. If Spain share its religion, then it cannot enjoy the +4 Combat Strength from different religion.

My main problems with Spain are:

• Its inability to secure a Religion.
• Its Combat Strength bonus against civilization of foreign civilization not working most of the time, since a lot of civilization do not have a majority religion.
• How sadly the Loyalty bonus was added into Treasure Fleets.
• How frustrating it is to play around the Continent system, something extremely random and depending on selected map.
• Its inability to build Armadas without Seaport.
• How clunky the Conquistador is now that religious units cannot form an escort formation.
• How late the Mission is unlocked, and how frustrating to use.

That is why I end up to write this draft, hoping to adress those problems, here some explanations:

"+50% Production torward Holy Site Prayers, that triple Religious Pressure." is just a way to secure Religion, something Spain struggle to. Triple Pressure is a gimmick: since the project last less time, it is just a way to even out. It can also help toward converting your first cities before you got a religion.

"+5 Combat Strength against civilizations not following Spain's majority Religion." is more subtile. The wording change to work also against civilization with no majority Religion, including Barbarians and City-States. +5 is just for the round number, an echo to a lot of abilities (Divine Wind, Killer of Cyrus, Amabutho, Arthashâstra, Raven King, Ix Mutal Ahaw, Roosevelt Corollary...)

"Settling or conquering cities convert to Spain's majority Religion. +1 Loyalty for each Population following Spain's majority Religion, and -1 Loyalty for each Population following other Religions." I removed the ability from the Conquistador to make it apply to the whole civilization. It might be a little broken but it does not really help torward a religious victory, but more for Loyalty issue. I make it balanced / even more unbalanced with an additionnal Loyalty mechanic. It was a way to get ride of the "+2 Loyalty from Mission on foreign continent" while making it more spicy: other civilizations could use this to your doom and flip your own cities. Basicly, this ability is more prone to actually make you use Inquisitor than the initial ability!

"Treasure Fleet (Spain's ability)" For some reason, Spain has to wait the Seaport to build his Armadas, and have to manually build one by one and merge them. This is fixed. Like the Ikanda, it has faster Fleets and Armadas creation. The continent system change for a distance one. Yeah, it is a ripoff of Hunza.

"Conquistador (Spain's unique unit)" The whole unit change from a zealot unit to a colonist! What a progress! Since you can't from an Escort Formation with a religious unit anymore, the Conquistador was already a clunky unit. It is now a explorer that can settle a city, which work better for a colonisation civilization in mind. Faster on ocean, better sight, ignore movement penalty. The settled city follow Spain religion, which allow to leech out some Loyalty for a more potent colonisation!

"Mission (Spain's unique tile improvement):" Currently, the mission is an incredible tile improvement, cursed by its late unlocking and worth it only on foreign continent. It means you need to train Builder a new time, to destroy improvement, and put Missions instead. That is why it is now unlocked earlier (Theology) with less bonuses, but will unlock them when climbing the civic and tech tree, meaning you can build them earlier. It has Housing, allowing the city to grow. It also have healing. Not only it fit the Mission well, but it also give some defense against early agression, since you are more vulnerable when going for Religion and Holy Site Prayers. Overall, the foreign bonus are weaker (+0.5 Housing, heals but -1 Faith/Science) but generate Tourism at Flight. Sooner or later, I believe that the civ team will simplify how Flight works to make sure all tiles improvement with Faith / Culture will yield Tourism at some point. At home continent, it is better (+0.5 Housing, heals, earlier Science) and worth it.
I really dislike how the Mission was potentially too potent in foreign continent, but lacking in home continent for a long time. Now, they have different identities either it is on a foreign or home continent, reflecting more how secular is Spain, and more religious the new world is.

What do you think?

Sadly, Spain is kind of locked into the "colonist" civilization in this franchise, like France trapped in its cultural depiction. So I go all for it, while having all the religious part of Spain on Philip II only. It does not mean it has no synergy with Spain itself: on the contrary!

If it is not for the "colonialism" trope, how would you like Spain to be portrayed?

@oSiyeza "However, the missions as a spanish mechanic feel just wrong."
Well, in a game where a Farm/Ranch (Hacienda, Outback Station), an Ice Rink, an Open-Air Museum or litterally a Castle (Château) are deemed to be representative of Colombia, Australia, Canada, Sweden or France, the Mission seems to at least fit. Sure, the french did Missions too. So did the spanish with castle. Heck, Spain is even sometime named Castile, litteraly the land of castles!
I guess we agree that Mission and Château are shortsighted gamemechanic just to promote the Faith/Culture focus of the targeted civilization.

 

[oSiyeza]

I guess it is possible to shovel almost all religious traits to Philip II, while having Spain focus more on colonisation. For example:



This is just a draft. Feel free to criticize, improve or dismiss the whole idea. It is still a Philip II civilization, since his legacy was religion wars, and Armadas financed by his far away colonies, and the whole civilization is still like this. But I guess it is still fun.

A lot of people did the comparison between Byzantium and Spain. It is both true that both use Religion for Domination goal. There is one huge difference: Byzantium want to share it, but Spain does not. If Spain share its religion, then it cannot enjoy the +4 Combat Strength from different religion.

My main problems with Spain are:

• Its inability to secure a Religion.
• Its Combat Strength bonus against civilization of foreign civilization not working most of the time, since a lot of civilization do not have a majority religion.
• How sadly the Loyalty bonus was added into Treasure Fleets.
• How frustrating it is to play around the Continent system, something extremely random and depending on selected map.
• Its inability to build Armadas without Seaport.
• How clunky the Conquistador is now that religious units cannot form an escort formation.
• How late the Mission is unlocked, and how frustrating to use.

That is why I end up to write this draft, hoping to adress those problems, here some explanations:



What do you think?

Sadly, Spain is kind of locked into the "colonist" civilization in this franchise, like France trapped in its cultural depiction. So I go all for it, while having all the religious part of Spain on Philip II only. It does not mean it has no synergy with Spain itself: on the contrary!

If it is not for the "colonialism" trope, how would you like Spain to be portrayed?

Seing as spain is portrayed as a Philip II civilization, I agree some religious mechanic is in order.
However, the missions as a spanish mechanic feel just wrong. Misions were not only not spanish exclusivities, but also were not dominated by spanish goverment, but by religious orders. Often even openly opposing the spanish control on the region.

I think spain should have big loyality bonus on conquered cities following the same religion, trade bonus on sea trade routes, ability to recruit mercenaries from city states following the same religion, and some significant naval bonus (maybe +1 movement, or early building armadas).

As for the UU, the unique Spanish unit should be the tercio. Those who know Alatriste know why. For the ones who not, inspired by the roman legion they are considered the first moddern military army. Stablished in in early 1500s, they were the most feared force of the time. Achieving legendary victories in France, Italy and Netherlands. They played a major role in efectively defeating the Otoman empire and securing two centuries of supremacy in european battlefields. Often with low numbers and support compared to their enemies.

The conquistadors are not even a real military unit. They were Spanish and Portuguese knights, explorers and soldiers as knewn by their role in America. Often includding sailors, fishermen and nobles as much of profesional soldiers. In my opinion a conquistador unit is just stupid.

Edit, also definitely read the Alatriste books, or if you dont feel like it, watch the movie:

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also the suggestions to not only prime religion but more trade and exploration, would be better. As indeed, the gold extracted from America and the trade with Asia was the source of the power of the empire, not so much the religious colonialism.

I do feel like early on they decided to switch Spain up this time around. Civ 5 Spain was very much an exploration civ wanting to find natural wonders. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to give the exploration bonuses to Portugal this time around considering they started the Age of Exploration.

 

[oSiyeza]

I do feel like early on they decided to switch Spain up this time around. Civ 5 Spain was very much an exploration civ wanting to find natural wonders. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to give the exploration bonuses to Portugal this time around considering they started the Age of Exploration.

That good be cool, I however think they took the Philip II route as a way to avoid Portugal altogether.