Change Vikings to Danes

1. Changing cosmetic aspects like names is one thing, but proposing to move the capital of the Vikings is entirely another. That would create a different balance in the game. Vikings, in my experience, rarely colonises Jutland in either scenario, so we would be giving them free land.

2. In RFC, you need not only a replacement for Vikings but also Viking Union, Viking Council, etc.

3. There are not going to be any new civs, except in a modcomp. But not in real RFC. Scandinavia, like Spain or England, isn't going to have the complicated dynamics of changing leadership modelled.
 
What should the Viking civ be called?
1st choice: Norsemen* (this is not on the list, but I guess Norse and Norsemen would be the same)
2nd choice: Scandinavians
3rd choice: Danes
*Could I chose a Nordic word it would be Nordboerne, which is still in use in all 3 countries. Norsemen is the closest English equivalent.

Where should the Viking capital be?
1st choice: Copenhagen, but with additional settlers on southern Scandinavian peninsula (maybe appearing a turn later (same time as workers) to ensure they don't build a capital there)
2nd choice: Scania(Lund or Trelleborg)
3rd choice: Ribe(oldest city in Denmark, royal seat and major trade and religious center and first place where coin was struck by centralized power)

RobinHat said:
The Swedes should have their own seperate Civ. Also, the capital should not be named 'Copenhagen' as this was never the capital until the 1600s. A more correct capital of the 'Viking' Civ should be Trelleborg which should be located in Skåne (the bottom tip of present day Sweden).
Copenhagen was base of the navy and favorite residence of the kings from the 1400 hundreds, the closest thing to a capital at the time.
 
1. Changing cosmetic aspects like names is one thing, but proposing to move the capital of the Vikings is entirely another. That would create a different balance in the game. Vikings, in my experience, rarely colonises Jutland in either scenario, so we would be giving them free land.

I think the fact that the Vikings rarely colonize Jutland, one of the main Viking homelands, is yet another reason why they should at least start with the settler there. Playtesting would quickly reveal whether the AI gets overpowered from starting with Jutland, but I think it's very unlikely that it would make a significant difference. I don't see that it would make any difference at all to human players.

2. In RFC, you need not only a replacement for Vikings but also Viking Union, Viking Council, etc.

Very easily done. Let's see what the outcome of the vote is, and then if it is something other than Viking we can have fun talking about that too.

3. There are not going to be any new civs, except in a modcomp. But not in real RFC. Scandinavia, like Spain or England, isn't going to have the complicated dynamics of changing leadership modelled.

Yep, there's no point talking about those things except in the context of a modcomp.
 
I started a Swedish replacement modcomp for RFC some months ago but it's come to a stop for now. I personally can't see why anyone would prefer Vikings, Danes or another "unified civ" other than Sweden in Scandinavia.

Let me know if you get this thing going though. My project ended when I should have started messing with SDK, DLL and Python.
 
Would it really be that ahistorical if we let the "Viking" civ that represent the early medieval Norsemen change its name to Sweden at an appropriate date (late Middle Ages)? I know you Scandinavians are picky about such a continuity, but many other civs have been treated with the same "generosity" (think China or Germany).

Dynamic civ naming and a new leaderhead is an easy and sufficient solution both gameplay and history-wise.
 
What should the Viking civ be called?
1st choice: Norsemen*
2nd choice: Scandinavians
3rd choice: Danes
*Could I chose a Nordic word it would be Nordboerne, which is still in use in all 3 countries. Norsemen is the closest English equivalent.

Where should the Viking capital be?
1st choice: Copenhagen, but with additional settlers on southern Scandinavian peninsula (maybe appearing a turn later (same time as workers) to ensure they don't build a capital there)
2nd choice: Scania(Lund or Trelleborg)
3rd choice: Ribe(oldest city in Denmark, royal seat and major trade and religious center and first place where coin was struck by centralized power)

Copenhagen was base of the navy and favorite residence of the kings from the 1400 hundreds, the closest thing to a capital at the time.

Vote: Scandinavians
Vote: Scania, because I don't want to see a Scandinavian amsterdam (Because you know it will happen).

Throw in some name changes and its fixed. Seriously dividing civs like England, Vikings, or Khmer would just make the game too crowded. Not to mention the Russians would benefit too much from the Europeans being heavily divided.
 
You know the Russians should be divided to like 3 civs, kievan rus, novgorod and muscovites.
 
You know the Russians should be divided to like 3 civs, kievan rus, novgorod and muscovites.
Panopticon said:
Yeah. And England should get a settler in Calais, and there should be an Aragon civ to represent Mediterranean Spain.
What is wrong with you? Only one person suggested that we should have separate Danes/Swedes, and it's clearly because he doesn't know RFC very well.
We are trying to come up with another name for the "viking" civ instead of Vikings, and possibly another starting location because the present one is bogus. Do you have some input on that?
 
What is wrong with you? Only one person suggested that we should have separate Danes/Swedes, and it's clearly because he doesn't know RFC very well.
We are trying to come up with another name for the "viking" civ instead of Vikings, and possibly another starting location because the present one is bogus. Do you have some input on that?

Come on, it's hardly "derailing the discussion on a false premise", as you wrote before your first edit. Threads here go off-topic all the time, nobody is prevented from talking about the original topic as a consequence. Indeed, we were noting an earlier meme in the thread, which is just as legitimate as the current discussion, then noting that the mod isn't very historically accurate. I would prefer Norse but with vivid dynamic names to represent the different eras, and the capital to either remain where it is or be moved to the coast of Svealand (probably Stockholm).
 
And, of course, a different civilization for the Francs, the French Empire, Revolutionary government, Vishy France, and the Republic of France.

Seriously gais, this is getting a bit overboard. Aragon, as a separate civ from Spain? 3 different civs fo the Russians, which has been united for the majority of their history as a nation state? Come on. I'm pretty sure the above post is sarcastic, but come on.

Sorry for getting off-topic.

Anyway, I'd think Norsemen, despite it's historical inaccuracies, will satisfy most parties. There's no debates to whether it includes both the Danes and Swedes, right? From a gameplay perspective, putting their capital somewhere in Scandinavia makes the most sense, as Copenhagen would make a already crowded region even more crowded, and would be swamped with culture from Amsterdam and Berlin. Maybe Oslo?
 
I vote Scandinavia for the civilisation (who needs Finland and Iceland anyway?) and Copenhagen for the capital (since it is the best well known). Cnut the Great should be at least one of the leaderheads since he is the most well-known leader of medieval Scandinavia. My second vote would be for Danes and Copenhagen. Norsemen gets too confusing with Norwegians in English and I don't think it would be well understood. If two mods were created, I'd vote for Danes and Swedes, but if there is only one civ, Scandinavia seems the most appropriate, even if the two states were only ever in a dynastic union (Kalmer) and never formally united.

Regarding the debate about various other states throughout history that Civ IV shafts, I agree that England is an improper name for the country and propose renaming it Great Britain, by which Scotland and Wales are no longer neglected (since both were independent during the larger portion of 4000 BC - AD 2050). At the same time, it would retain a legal name for the current state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and actually match the first name the united country had between 1707 and 1800. Great Britain should not get a settler on Calais since Calais was not founded by the English rather by the Romans, Flemish, and Burgundians. Its part of the English empire was rather short-lived (c. 1066 - c. 1550).

China is a different matter. While China has at various points since pre-historic times been divided governmentally, I believe that it overwhelmingly has remained a culturally unified entity since at least the founding of the imperial state c. 250 BC. The only exceptions were during the Mongol and the various invasions, but none of those undid the cultural integrity of the Chinese state. The Han people have been a culturally united state since at least 250 BC.

Russia is certainly a different matter than either of the two above states. It has only been unified in some official capacity since the 1500s and prior to that was basically the target of Mongol, Hun, etc., animosity. Russia, of course, refers to White Russia, the western portion that has historically considered itself European rather than Asian or Middle Eastern. I think if it were to change names, Muscovy would be the most appropriate since that includes much of the era of Mongol occupation and links it back to the Kievan Rus days (although calling it the Keivan Rus would therefore also work). Ultimately though, where China is justified by a civilisation because of its cultural integrity, Russia, like Great Britain, should probably be retained as Russia, focusing specifically on its geographic origin and position. Any other name to call the state would probably confuse people and would not be any more appropriate than calling it just Russia.
 
I don't think anybody(except maybe 1) is really contemplating splitting the Viking civ into 2, so to all of you arguing against that, you already won that discussion.

Panopticon said:
Come on, it's hardly "derailing the discussion on a false premise", as you wrote before your first edit.
Thanks for bringing that up. There was a reason I edited that away you know.

I made a test where I moved the Viking settler to Copenhagen, it worked very well culture-wise. Vikings would have the 4 tiles in Denmark and there would be a fight for the 2 tiles south of Jutland between the Dutch, Germans and Vikings.
 
So no one else cares for the idea of having the Settlers start on a Galley adjacent to Norway, Denmark and Sweden? Did the fact I used the local names (Norge, Danmark, Sverige) confuse too many people?
 
So no one else cares for the idea of having the Settlers start on a Galley adjacent to Norway, Denmark and Sweden? Did the fact I used the local names (Norge, Danmark, Sverige) confuse too many people?
That's a good idea. Have you tested how it would work?
 
If you rename the Vikings to Danes, you need the Swedes in as well.

The Danes might have been the one raiding mainland Europe, but the Swedes raided and mostly traded with the areas that are now Russia, all the way down to Istanbul.

The Rus' founded the Rus Khaganate which eventually became the Kievan Rus.

Not to mention the Swedish Empire in the Renaissance which almost defeated Russia.

So the influence from Swedish Vikings shouldn't be neglected.

If you keep one Civ, don't name it Danes. Call it Scandinavia, as for the Scandinavians, or Norsemen, or Nordic peoples

Just noticed there was a poll

What should the 'Viking' civ in RFC be called?
Example answer:
1st choice: Scandinavia
2nd choice: Norse or Nordic Kingdoms or something like that

But with the distinction that the people should be called:
1st choice: Norsemen (possible Nordic People)
2nd choice: Vikings

Not sure if Scandinavians sounds good when talking about the people?

Where should the 'Viking' capital be on the RFC map?
Probably Copenhagen. But I'm not sure here.
 
So no one else cares for the idea of having the Settlers start on a Galley adjacent to Norway, Denmark and Sweden? Did the fact I used the local names (Norge, Danmark, Sverige) confuse too many people?
That's a good idea!
 
So no one else cares for the idea of having the Settlers start on a Galley adjacent to Norway, Denmark and Sweden? Did the fact I used the local names (Norge, Danmark, Sverige) confuse too many people?

That's actually one of the best ideas I've heard! That way, you can please everyone and be able to do pretty much whatever you want with it. :)
 
Why have them on Galleys, if the point is to give Scandinavia three cities in good land at the start of the game? Why not just put the settlers on the desired city spots? (presumably the Nidaros, Stockholm, Kobenhavn plots)
 
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