Changes to returning civilizations

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah but Great admirals would not replace either existing UU. Unless you took out Ship of the Line and made it a universal unit. That to me one dimensionalizes England even more.

Besides, even as Spain, how often are you settling a city on the FOY wonder in the opposite hemisphere that late into the game? It might be worth it to wage war if that is a city state with that wonder or something, but would require more careful consideration if the natural wonder is under control of a fully developed empire.

It is a rare bonus that is HUGE when implemented right. Sometimes it is worth it. Other times it is not. But still something the player would NEVER consider with any other civ but those two.

Besides, it is mute, because the previous major patch would have added something for England if they felt it was imbalanced, while Ottomans and Germans were buffed accordingly.

Who said Great Admirals were a UU?

I thought that Great Admirals would be a new Great person...you get points toward them when your ships ?or embarked units? get exp. (they would have to be cheaper than Great Generals)

 

[fat_tonle]

Who said Great Admirals were a UU?

I thought that Great Admirals would be a new Great person...you get points toward them when your ships ?or embarked units? get exp. (they would have to be cheaper than Great Generals)

It would make England even more broken...

They are already a naval powerhouse. Giving them +4 movement and extra combat bonuses would blow any other navy out of the water. Way too imbalanced. They would basically dominate the navy in any era.

Then again, you play of Panagea, it is still useless.... as would the UA I proposed (although my UA could be extended to occupied cities). On archipelago, see comment above.

If you want them to be more of a naval power house, buff Ship of the Line. Get rid of the Iron requirement or something. They weren't an unmatched naval power until the late renaissance/Enlightenment anyhow. Great Admirals would buff them in all eras. It's broken.

Again, if they did away with Ship of the Line and get replaced it with the GA, that change works. The movement shouldn't change. Just transfer the land combat bonuses to the sea.

 

[Louis XXIV]

+4 movement?

 

[Haig]

Fat tonle, I bet that you cant forget your naval defence on Archipelago maps anymore. With the balancing to AI and more naval focus, I'm sure they make AI more able to create invasions and colonize.

So finally we get to think of navy budgets too.

Oh and I think your England UU idea was pretty cool, not sure if they do whole revamps to some UAs or just polish them a bit.

I think Greg's(?) quote was "Some Civilizations get their Unique Abilities reworked"

 

[MARDUK80]

I think Greg's(?) quote was "Some Civilizations get their Unique Abilities reworked"

Personally I have found Germany, America and Ottoman UAs a bit boring. Even after they all got boosted in patches.

Manifest Destiny: Land Military Units gain +1 sight. Gold cost of purchasing Tiles reduced by 50%.

Furor Teutonicus: Upon defeating a Barbarian unit inside an encampment, there is a 50% chance you earn 25 Gold and they join your side. Land Unit maintenance reduced by 25%.

Barbary Corsairs: 50% Chance of converting a Barbarian naval unit to your side and earning 25 Gold. Pay only one-third the usual cost for naval unit maintenence

Hopefully they all get some changes (+ England and Songhai, of course). Not sure what to do with America and Germany, but if we get Privateer unit in G&K the Ottoman ability is not that unique anymore. On the other hand if Saltpeter is one of the new (strategic) resources they could get double quantity plus some kind of bonus to siege units. As Ottomans were famous of using gunpowder / siege.

Sultan Mehmet II laid siege to Constantinople in April 1453, he used 68 Hungarian-made cannon, the largest of which was 26 feet (7.9 m) long and weighed 20 tons. This fired a 1,200 pound stone cannonball, and required an operating crew of 200 men.[38] Two such bombards had initially been offered to the Byzantines by the Hungarian artillery expert Urban, which were the pinnacle of gunpowder technology at the time; he boasted that they could reduce "even the walls of Babylon".[37] However, the fact that the Byzantines could not afford it illustrates the financial costs of artillery at the time. These cannon also needed 70 oxen and 10,000 men just to transport them.[37] They were extremely loud, adding to their psychological impact, and Mehmet believed that those who unexpectedly heard it would be struck dumb.[37]

The 55 day bombardment of Constantinople left massive destruction, as recounted by the Greek chronicler Kritovoulos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_artillery_in_the_Middle_Ages

 

[Babri]

Yeah siege bonus UA would make sense however there are already many conquering style UAs. So I think it would be nice if Ottos get an expansive UA as they had a pretty large empire & held it for about 6-7 centuries.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well one way they could boost Germany, America, and the Ottomans is make Pikes upgradable to Muskets. (have them lose the +100% v. mounted, and not go Obsolete until Rifles though)

Germany's Cheap UU Pikes+ America+Ottomans UU muskets would be benefited by that change

(In the same way that England would be benefited by a stronger naval game/ and the existence of Great Admirals)


The ones I see definitely getting some change

1. Spain..incorporate Faith/Religion somehow .. probably give the Conquistador a "convert on Conquest" ability to replace its lost defensive embarking (possibly rework the UA as well)

2. Songhai..to make up for their loss of defensive embarkation, and to include some faith, possibly all units get amphibious promotion and/or reworking of Mud Pyramid Mosque... since the base Temple will probably be reworked some

3. India.. incorporate Faith/Religion somehow.

4. Siam.. include Religious CS.

As for the others they may get benefits just from the changes to things like the naval game/City State operation, etc.

 

[chazzycat]

I don't think any of these three civs need a change.

America is just underrated...they are one of my fave civs. UA looks weak on paper but comes in handy all the time.

Germany is consistently among the most competitive AI civs. Cheap army is a fine UA...what's wrong with it? Just that it's boring?

Ottomans should see a bit of a revival now that navies will supposedly matter a lot more. Cheap fleets will certainly be useful if fleets are important...

Krikkitone's list is more on the money I think. Some changes for the religous civs, or if the UA was directly affected by other changes (i.e. Songhai). India would be a good candidate for a heavy religious focus...I am not a big fan of their UA. India is a huge country...why do I have to limit myself to a few cities??

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

I wouldn't be surprised of Songhai gets a tweak. Even without the embarked defense, their unique ability is still nice -- but likely they will get something to compensate. Perhaps embarked units taking less damage.

Conquistador's may get something to replace their lost ability, but I believe the unit is already quite good. Correct me if I'm wrong but Conquistadors can settle on different continents, have no city attack penalty, and have +1 Sight. Not to mention they are as strong as the Knight.

I wouldn't be surprised if Aztec's unique ability gives Faith instead of Culture. There may also be other small tweaks along that line here and there. Maybe some civilizations will get bonuses for Espionage -- USA, England, and Russia come to mind. Russia is already quite strong though, and a lot of people say USA and England are weak. So I'd expect one of those to get an espionage bonus if anyone does (not counting new civs).

If navies become much stronger than previously, they may actually nerf the Ottoman UA.

Ultimately I don't expect sweeping changes, though.

 

[fat_tonle]

Didn't realize GA's were confirmed, so I guess they will be a second Great Person next to Prophets. Seems kinda redundant though... unless they get an embark bonus or whatever.

But I don't see any reason to buff England if that's the case, with the exception of maybe a 50% greater GA generation. I am not sure if that is too OP though. I mean China's is bad enough.

Right now Ottomans need even lower maintenance IMO. It is way too easy to capture ships if you get a surround on a coastal encampment. Plus the excess ships don't really fare too well on non-archipelago. But I suppose they will remain as is.

Songhai will definitely need something. River Warlords make no sense considering what they already have. Maybe more ability to convert people into your faith or something. No idea there.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Didn't realize GA's were confirmed, so I guess they will be a second Great Person next to Prophets. Seems kinda redundant though... unless they get an embark bonus or whatever.

well great generals give no bonus when they are embarked.
The Great Admiral might even be a naval unit itself.

But I don't see any reason to buff England if that's the case, with the exception of maybe a 50% greater GA generation. I am not sure if that is too OP though. I mean China's is bad enough.

Right now Ottomans need even lower maintenance IMO. It is way too easy to capture ships if you get a surround on a coastal encampment. Plus the excess ships don't really fare too well on non-archipelago. But I suppose they will remain as is.

Songhai will definitely need something. River Warlords make no sense considering what they already have. Maybe more ability to convert people into your faith or something. No idea there.

Well the Ottomans may get the benefit of better barb ships (Privateers?)

As for Songhai, to keep the Name (River Warlords) change it from Defensive Embarkation to Amphibious promotion for what all units get. Their UB will probably be changed a bit, since the Temple will probably be changed a bit.

 

[fat_tonle]

Amphibious promos is too similar to Beserkers.

We could get something to rival the Aztecs, ie) acquiring more faith or science points. I don't know how to implement that though. I don't like the fact that some civs play as pure military with two UU in the case of Ottomans.

 

[Monthar]

Perhaps now that the Admiral is confirmed we need to rethink the abbreviations, because now GA can mean 3 things. So how's this sound?
GAr = Great Artist
GAd = Great Admiral
GAg = Golden Age

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think keep GA for Golden Age and then have GAd and Gar. If you have GAg, why not just have GAge?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Amphibious promos is too similar to Beserkers.

We could get something to rival the Aztecs, ie) acquiring more faith or science points. I don't know how to implement that though. I don't like the fact that some civs play as pure military with two UU in the case of Ottomans.

Well that's like saying embarked defense is too similar to Conquistadors.

Having ALL units with amphibious from the beginning would be unique (and play into Songhai's early raid)

 

[bonafide11]

Well that's like saying embarked defense is too similar to Conquistadors.

Having ALL units with amphibious from the beginning would be unique (and play into Songhai's early raid)

For a landlocked empire, the amphibious promotion wouldn't make a whole lot of sense (not that the embarked defensive units made sense either). Truthfully, the 3x gold from pillaging cities and barbarian ruins is enough, they don't really need any other bonus, especially if they do something to enhance their temples.

EDIT: to keep the "River Warlord" ability and have it make sense, and actually make more sense than it does now, why not have the Songhai ignore movement over rivers? If that's too powerful, then just have it work in only non-enemy territory.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Their temples are actually pretty good - especially for a puppet city empire.

 

[bonafide11]

Their temples are actually pretty good - especially for a puppet city empire.

I agree, but it's generally believed that temples will be reformatted to fit religions, so I assume their buildings will be changed as well.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Fair enough. Also, there's no reason to believe defensive embark for them won't be better than with others (ideally, it would also scale with era).

I do support the principle that an improvement in any part of the civ can be sufficient to counterbalance a shortcoming somewhere else, so an improved Mosque would work too.

 

[fat_tonle]

With GAds.... I guess you need to be able to stack. Although I believe you can still stack embarked settlers/workers with Triremes no (haven't played Polynesia in a while)???

But it seems excessive. I am wondering how the battles will be weighted with two water units stacked in the same tile. Do you lose both units? Do they fight together? Who knows???

As for Songhai, no movement penalty over rivers makes sense. Leave it at that.