Changing Cannons from Units to Professions [IMPLEMENTED]

[raystuttgart]

I always assumed cannons weren't professions because their primary cost is equipment ...

We have the equipment as well. (e.g Cannons, Blades or whatever)
And the Professions will need equpipment of course.

and their manpower cost is much lower than what an infantry unit would use.

That is true but it was also not just one single cannon that would fight together with e.g. an infantery regiment (e.g. 50) against another army.
It was a couple (e.g. 8) of them, also usually called an artillery regiment.

In later centuries of course "regiments" were much bigger and were combined of many different batallions of different troops.

How do you plan on dealing with this if we're stuck with one unit = one pop?

I am not sure what we should deal with.

But yes, it is a simplification - just as building an artillery regiment by a carpenter was a heavy simplification.
Games need to simplify because otherwise nobody would play them if they would feel like complex reality.

... probably by adding a bombard system.

Artillery Professions will be able to bombard just as Artillery Units can now.
The only real difference will be equipping as a Profession instead of "Building / Hurrying" a Unit (by Carpenter).

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...That is true but it was also not just one single cannon that would fight together with e.g. an infantery regiment (e.g. 50) against another army.
It was a couple (e.g. 8) of them, also usually called an artillery regiment.

I always envisioned cannon to be more like an artillery battery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery
After all troop strength and cannons in the Colonies never have been that high and even in major engagements the numbers were rather small compared to european campaigns.

 

[raystuttgart]

I always envisioned cannon to be more like an artillery battery

True, but in modern terms infantery sizes of colonial age would also be at most a "batallions" or a "troop" only.
The terms were changed / mixed a lot over the centuries because military numbers increased dramatically.

That is why we avoided to use such terms as "regiment", "batallion", "troop" ....

After all troop strength and cannons in the Colonies never have been that high and even in major engagements the numbers were rather small compared to european campaigns.

Exactly.

But it still was not only 1 Artillery (Cannon) vs. 50 Infantery (Men).
It would not have been worth the effort to bring the 1 cannon to the battle.

If cannons were fielded, there were at least a couple of them.
The normal number was somewhere between 6 to 12. (in rare case only 4)

We would have the same issue in numbers with Fur Trappers and Cotton Planters. (and many other Professions as well)
e.g. Cotton was very work intensive and required work force was quite large.

But as already said, games need to simplify.
We cannot try to emulate all the exact numbers.

 

[Nightinggale]

Ok, but let's find a a better name than "light cannon".
How about "garrison cannon".

First of all, should it be "cannon" or "artillery"? The first is used in this thread, the latter is what the game is currently using.

Garrison seems to match the game settings better than light because light artillery can also be read as "field artillery", in which case it's a much more mobile kind of cannons, which are intended to be moved to the battlefield and shoot at enemy soldiers. The current light artillery isn't really intended to be moved out of the colonies.

 

[Schmiddie]

I assume for the moment it doesn't matter - if a tech tree will ever be implemented or early and late "artillery" then it becomes more important.

 

[devolution]

I think we should allow ourselves to assume that we'll eventually get a tech tree. Perhaps it's just my optimistic bias though

Here's another idea: some BTS mods have immobile units. I think that AND2 and\or RI has cannon turrets, and this is perhaps something to consider for WTP.

 

[Nightinggale]

Here's another idea: some BTS mods have immobile units. I think that AND2 and\or RI has cannon turrets, and this is perhaps something to consider for WTP.

We have DOMAIN_IMMOBILE in the dll. It's just that none of the units actually use it. A quick search in the source code indicates that the dll actually checks for this domain when assigning movement points and stuff. Looks good regarding an implementation because it's possible that it's an xml only change. One thing to keep in mind is that the domain comes from CvUnitInfo, not the profession. Changing a profession will not change the domain, though we could mod CvUnit::getDomainType() to change that if we really want to do so.

 

[raystuttgart]

First of all, should it be "cannon" or "artillery"?

You are correct - I was misusing the terms.
(In German we usually talk about "Kannonen".)

 

[raystuttgart]

We have DOMAIN_IMMOBILE in the dll. It's just that none of the units actually use it.

I have seen "DOMAIN_IMMOBILE" being used several times in the code.
I am not sure however that it all works as intended since simply no "immobile Unit" ever existed in Civ4Col.

I am also not sure that having "immobile Units" is really interesting or could be used purposely in Civ4Col.

If anybody has a good game concept for that, go ahead and suggest it.
(Please create a new feature thread for it though because it would be a new feature to discuss.)

 

[Nightinggale]

This talk about immobile cannons makes me wonder if cannons really should be a profession. If we keep them as produced units, but immobile, meaning defense only and then add a cannon handler profession (we will make a proper name later), which has a cargo slot. This slot can then load a cannon and then we use another feature I once proposed (but can't find right now), which allows units to grant a promotion when in a cargo slot. This promotion can then grant various abilities to the handlers. Different kind of cannons can give different promotions.

The result would be cannons will become defensive units, but they turn into attacking units when merged together with a colonist (which may or may not require horses to pull the cannons). Their stats could also change when being moved into the battlefield vs stationary in a colony.

Is this a path for cannons, which would be interesting for the gameplay?

 

[raystuttgart]

If we keep them as produced units, but immobile, meaning defense only and then add a cannon handler profession (we will make a proper name later), which has a cargo slot. This slot can then load a cannon and then we use another feature I once proposed (but can't find right now), which allows units to grant a promotion when in a cargo slot. This promotion can then grant various abilities to the handlers. Different kind of cannons can give different promotions.

Sounds way too difficult for me and like it has no benefit considering gameplay or consistency or anything else I can imagine.
Before we do something like "cannon handler profession" with a cannon slot to carry cannons around, we rather do nothing at all considering Artillery / Cannons.

Is this a path for cannons, which would be interesting for the gameplay?

Not for me, it adds a tedious game mechanic I would not like.
Also AI concept would most likely be complicated - but probably doable of course with a lot of effort.

I still see no benefits at all to have Professions with Cargo Slots. (At least not for WTP - maybe in a Mod-Mod though.)
It is neither needed (for any feature we discussed) nor does it sound like a reasonable consistent game mechanic if we already have e.g. "Wagon Trains".

The current concept is much simpler, kills the exploit to build Land military and also consistent with equipping all the rest of the Miliary Land Professions.
Having a "Carry Professions" for Immobile Cannons, is neither simple nor is it consistent with anything we have.
(It even introduces 2 completely new concepts that are tedious to use, are needed nowhere else and do not make game play any better.)

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Do we (the team) want to change Artillery Units to Artillery Professions in Release 2.8?
Do we not like the idea to change Artillery Units to Artillery Professions at all?
Are we currently simply not sure and leave everything as it is?

Because if we do not know now or do not want it, Schmiddie definitely does not need to start preparing anything.

 

[Schmiddie]

I still like the idea of changing the two main artillery units to professions. It is simple and fits with the military system

 

[raystuttgart]

I still like the idea of changing the two main artillery units to professions. It is simple and fits with the military system.

Me too.

 

[CptBadger]

I third that thought. I /really/ dont want this to stall

 

[cammcken]

I am not sure what we should deal with.

My only concern is that changing cannons would remove one military "pathway". Currently, cannon units don't cost population, so colonies with highly developed industry (ore production lines and hammers production) but struggling with population growth would more likely use cannons in their military. Conversely, a country with great population growth but poor industry might choose to field more colonial militia. The current system offers two alternate "pathways" — high material cost / low manpower cost vs. low material cost / high manpower cost — and it's up to the player to decide which way is better given their situation. If cannon units require population, then all military has the same manpower cost, so the question of whether or not to use cannons is decided entirely by their strategic value and cost (and low population colonies are out of luck).

In other words, I'm afraid this change will push everyone to a single army composition instead of alternate compositions that change depending on situation (a new game might put you in a different situation). But realism is still more important to me than replayability, so if you think the change is worth it then go for it.

 

[raystuttgart]

If cannon units require population, then all military has the same manpower cost, ...

That is exactly one of the purposes of this change (at least for me).
Because I consider "Buying / Hurrying" of Land Military without population cost (especially in WOI) an exploit.

In other words, I'm afraid this change will push everyone to a single army composition instead of alternate compositions that change depending on situation ...

Cannons still have their purpose because they can bombard defenses of a city.
But if we do the "big military overhaul" already partially discussed in some post and internally, they will get even more purpose.

The "Big Military Overhaul" however is a completely different topic (that requires its own discussion thread) at some point when we are ready for it.
We need to start building things step by step.

 

[devolution]

FYI: "Big Military Overhaul" <- This is probably my most wanted feature (along with a tech tree \ civics)

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok guys, it seems that we - the team - still agree on this.
Let us just give it a try in Release 2.8.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

It may be worth including a third immobile cannon that is not a population unit but can only be used for city defence (as it cannot move from the location it was built) This of course could be exploited in the current way by having a impenetrable mega city bristling with cannons, but it would have far less utility in this exploit as it would only protect 'that city' rather than a rapacious hoard of cannons reducing all to dust in their path.

They would be similar to how a colonist can pick up guns laying around to defend themselves when the town is attacked (is this a thing or is this just some kind of dream I had) but they would be essentially big emplacements manned by a not full time local militia (who drill with them on the weekends) rather than engineers who are knowledgeable in not only use but also transportation of cannons and powder, etc. (the professional field artillerists[new word because lazy])

 

[raystuttgart]

Finally Release 2.9 is finally out.

I am now planning to slowly but surely clean up some old "open todos". (see here)
(Since this one here is accepted there should be no further need to discuss.)
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This concept is probably next because:

1. It is a damned old concept and already on my todo-list since RaR - a shame I have not yet already implemented it
2. It just has about the right size to keep me busy for a small update "Release 2.9.1"
3. I can do it without other programmers (so e.g. @Nightinggale can focus on further improvements)
4. It is best to do it now because of feature dependencies and impacts to e.g. "Military Overhaul" or "Promotions or "Social Progress"

Also see here:

If we agree to this, then it should be done before a potential "Rebuild of the Military System".
It would have at least some impacts on that.

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Most of the effort will be:

1. Changing DLL "Bombarding Logic" (thus making sure that AI will understand) --> Professions will get bombard capability in XML
2. Cecking and changing all XML dependencies (e.g. Civ4ArtDefinesUnit.xml, Civ4CivizationInfos.xml, Civ4TraitInfos.xml, Civ4UnitClassInfos.xml, Civ4UnitInfos.xml, Civ4PromotionInfos.xml ...)
3. New Pedia Texts for Experts and Professions (reusing the ones of current / old Units)
4. Checking and changinge Python Events (not listed above in 2 because Python code may also be involved)

The rest is basically peanuts.

I should have all done in a relaxed fashion within a couple of weeks.
(Taking it slow without stress - every week a bit.)

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@team:

Programming and config is no problem.
But considering graphics and texts I migth requests help to get faster progress.
(Not yet sure how much support I actually need.)

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@Schmiddie

If I remember correctly this was already all prepared in e.g. Units and Unit Art.
Will contact you the next days to figure out the old status again. (I kind of forgot after so long.)