Charismatic Vs. Aggressive

[CornPlanter]

Funny thread... they are not even in the same league.

Edit: I see, voting results reflect that

 

[UncleJJ]

I will concede the point with a caveat: at higher levels this is all very true. At levels where a long-term monopoly on Chem can be achieved (prince and below) Cha Privateers can flat-ass win the game by isolating your enemies (use them to ambush more than blockade). This both disallows intercontinental tech trading (except with the human player), and allows for major intercontinental wars to be fought (with massive tech disparities no less) with no diplomatic repercussions. I've found with non-cha leaders, developing privateers that can take frigates is simply too many promotions to achieve by the time people start getting chem. Of course, I probably played Prince level far longer than I should have, and if you can pull this off, you should probably go to a new level. Not to mention, maintaining that many naval patrols on a map large enough to make this tactic pay makes turns take an insufferably long time. I think the first and last time I used this approach I ended up taking something like 60 hours to complete a marathon/huge conquest.

Privateers can rule frigates on Emperor if you're attentive. I've done it several times with exchange rates of less than 1 privateer for each frigate killed. The key is to outnumber them and have the movement advantage from the circumnavigation bonus. The privateers don't need any special promotions as long as they're produced in a drydock. I use a new privateer to attack and if the first doesn't win the next will kill the damaged frigate. This is a great way to keep the economic pressure on a nation you're blockading and pick up GG points at the same time while trading resources to them (I love selling them fish and clams after pillaging theirs ). I like to have enough EPs invested against them that I can see where they are building the frigates and I try to base airships in their cities to scout for my privateers

Only when destroyers turn up do your privateers have to be retired.

 

[mariogreymist]

Oh, privateers v frigates is an easy win for the privateers on a for basis, especially if you mix some fl2 promos in there. But you can't control the entirety of the sea that way and do anything else...and that's the strategy I was talking about where CHA makes privateers/naval power into a game winning strategy.

Piracy is a very powerful, and often neglected game element (At least I don't hear it discussed here as often as it is warranted) which can give a major edge.

 

[Rittmeyer]

I really fail to see how a privateer or some otherwise strong navy could be decisive to winning games, at least in IMM+. I never care about navy. Intercontinental war is usually about having enough transports for the troops I need, plus enough carriers for my planes and enough destroyers for the first turn bombardment. There's no naval combat at all, since I'll capture an AI city (at least) in the first turn of war and station all my ships in there before moving for the next coastal city.

But that is problably subject for another thread.

 

[Iranon]

The AI is utterly pants at tackling naval threats and throws a ton of resources away. With privateers, you don't muck up your diplomacy and recoup most of the investment or even make a profit, so you cripple them for free.
Having said that... I usually neglect my navy as well and consequently have a fair number of game losses to far-away monster AIs.

*

To the question at hand... I find AGG the weakest trait in the game. PRO can at least keep me alive in a hostile environment without resources. The only level on which I don't find it sucky to the extreme is Immortal because for any warfare past a rush I'd rather have an economic trait getting me there more quickly.
Below Immortal, axe rushes always work. Above, axe rushes are rarely worth it even with AGG.

 

[mirthadir]

Privateers can rule frigates on Emperor if you're attentive. I've done it several times with exchange rates of less than 1 privateer for each frigate killed. The key is to outnumber them and have the movement advantage from the circumnavigation bonus. The privateers don't need any special promotions as long as they're produced in a drydock. I use a new privateer to attack and if the first doesn't win the next will kill the damaged frigate. This is a great way to keep the economic pressure on a nation you're blockading and pick up GG points at the same time while trading resources to them (I love selling them fish and clams after pillaging theirs ). I like to have enough EPs invested against them that I can see where they are building the frigates and I try to base airships in their cities to scout for my privateers

Only when destroyers turn up do your privateers have to be retired.

This works fine when you are matched against just one AI up through Immort; however even trading losses at 1 : 2 is a losing game once multiple AIs get in on the hunt. If you have the to compete with multiple AIs in a privateer war, you should have the to just invade and be done with it. I mean seriously smacking with cannons around that time often gets me 1 : 5 trades or better.

If the AIs can out build you by 3:1 then privateers are virtually impossible to milk.

mgm:
On a prince or below you can flat-ass win the game with axes; further when were are talking about getting a monopoly the actual promos on the privateers don't matter at all. Normal privateers with the situation you describe can also flat ass win the game. Seriously, 10 cha privateers might be worth 14 non - cha privateers when it comes to combat; but for blockade and pillage duty they are still only worth 10. Getting an extra 3 turns of monopoly (say due to faster teching thanks to +2 early) or an extra city (thanks to +25% on your CRIII pults before the AI got up castles) is vastly more important than getting any one promo.

Getting the promos needed to hunt frigates without using softener ships (as UJJ describes) is one of those things that can happen ... but rarely when you haven't already won due to tech lead or production lead.

 

[UncleJJ]

Oh, privateers v frigates is an easy win for the privateers on a for basis, especially if you mix some fl2 promos in there. But you can't control the entirety of the sea that way and do anything else...and that's the strategy I was talking about where CHA makes privateers/naval power into a game winning strategy.

Piracy is a very powerful, and often neglected game element (At least I don't hear it discussed here as often as it is warranted) which can give a major edge.

The way I play these games of naval dominance with privateers CHA wouldn't help at all. It is not the high promoted promoted privateers but the new 6 exp privateers that I use to beat the frigates in a cost effective manner. I used Hatty, who is neither CHA nor AG, to do this and turned around a situation where I was 6 techs behind Mansa and his allies into one where I was ahead by a combination of tech stealing and self research plus ruining his economy with privateers. In fact AG would be better than CHA since it would give half price drydocks, which saves 60 hammers, nearly the cost of the first privateer.

I have never found flanking promotions to be useful for privateers, I always use straight combat promotions and about 1 in 3 gets a medic 1 to act as stack healer. For my 6 exp sacrificial privateers I use combat 2 and win quite often on ocean tiles against frigates and do significant damage if I don't win. I have never lost 2 privateers to the same frigate. I find 20% greater strength is better than a 30% chance to withdraw.

 

[UncleJJ]

This works fine when you are matched against just one AI up through Immort; however even trading losses at 1 : 2 is a losing game once multiple AIs get in on the hunt. If you have the to compete with multiple AIs in a privateer war, you should have the to just invade and be done with it. I mean seriously smacking with cannons around that time often gets me 1 : 5 trades or better.

I agree it would be much tougher on Immortal, and I've not got the massed privateer strategy to work yet at that level. But I have done this 4 times on Emperor and mariogreymist was talking about Prince in post #36. I wanted to assure him that he can enjoy this strategy for quite some time yet In one of my odd games I had copper but no iron for some time, so privateers could be built but not frigates or cannons. Obviously I secured iron as quickly as possible but privateers helped in the interim and became dominant afterwards.

That was an archipelago map and ended up being a walkover with me ruling the waves in war and peace. Privateers are a great way of projecting power without diplomatic consequences and diverting AI economies into building nearly useless frigates which just makes them easier targets for invasion. With drydocks and multiiple versions of the infamous clam driven whipping / drafting city the world was my oyster. I need to get that working on Immortal

 

[goodolarchie]

Chm is great for taking out those Agg leaders

 

[mariogreymist]

The way I play these games of naval dominance with privateers CHA wouldn't help at all. It is not the high promoted promoted privateers but the new 6 exp privateers that I use to beat the frigates in a cost effective manner. I used Hatty, who is neither CHA nor AG, to do this and turned around a situation where I was 6 techs behind Mansa and his allies into one where I was ahead by a combination of tech stealing and self research plus ruining his economy with privateers. In fact AG would be better than CHA since it would give half price drydocks, which saves 60 hammers, nearly the cost of the first privateer.

I have never found flanking promotions to be useful for privateers, I always use straight combat promotions and about 1 in 3 gets a medic 1 to act as stack healer. For my 6 exp sacrificial privateers I use combat 2 and win quite often on ocean tiles against frigates and do significant damage if I don't win. I have never lost 2 privateers to the same frigate. I find 20% greater strength is better than a 30% chance to withdraw.

Interesting. I will have to try that. I generally use my flanking II as the sacrificial privateers, and this too results in not losing two privateers to any one frigate. The ones (among flanking) that survive a couple combats, if CHA, get downright scary as they start up the combat line. But I can certainly see the value of using the combat line exclusively, as I have had it occur that I lost a fair amount of experience on the strong flanking2, Combat2/3 privateers which meant they wouldn't get (at least without significant combat) blitz as destroyers.

And of course, for the AGG drydock advantage to come into play one must have steel... so that's hardly the first privateer that gets saved in cost. Unless you stopped researching liberalism one turn away to go all the way to chem and nab steel, I guess.

 

[ICNP]

125-10, At first I thought someone was stuffing the ballots. But then I remembered the +2 Happy cap

 

[UncleJJ]

On a continents map I quite often research Steel before Astronomy because cannons are a top priority. In that case it is easy to have the drydocks waiting in coastal cities for the first privateer. Cannons and muskets conquer my continent while I build galleons and frigates for overseas expansion. If I have time I send out a flock of privateers to slow down other AIs

There is a good discussion thread on privateers called Privateers for Dummies which you might like. I went into more details of the tactics there.

 

[IAM]

Privateers are just another tool in the box. Certain games give an opportunity to exploit the advantage. Typically I try to concentrate a privateer advantage against the leader on another continent and send out groups of three.

 

[noto2]

Well...to me charismatic is the best warfare trait in the game, and it's tied for the best overall trait, imo. Thus obviously aggressive can't quite match it. However, you have to look at the big picture, nothing in Civ exists in a vaccuum. The charismatic trait gives you a serious economic boost in the early game, and a very small military boost. As the game goes on the military boost gets stronger and stronger, while the economic boost gets less and less important. The aggressive trait, on the other hand, gives you a noticeable military boost right away, which gradually declines in relative power as the game goes on. Civ is a cumulative game, meaning each turn effects the next. Waging an early successfully can seal a win. The ability to rush a neighbour with axes/swords, take a bunch of cities, resources, maybe a shrine and/or a wonder, and a great capitol location in the early game is an enormous blessing. The aggressive trait is much better for an early war than the charismatic trait. So to compare them you must be fair. The aggressive leader could quite possibly have a huge empire early on due to a successful classical age war, and this will basically win the game, giving much more of an advantage than any trait.

 

[Tristan_C]

If it were up to me, the tech tree would halt at bronze working. I live by the axe, and the axe lives by me.

Axe : Axemen :: Axemen : Tristan :: Tristan : Axe
​

So I voted Agg. I know Cha is better, or at least far more popular. I don't care, and neither does an axe.