Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[Nick723]

I’ve been playing a bit of NTT isolation, inspired by the map. I’m by no means an expert…but my thoughts on tech path.

I generally think that the Astro beeline is still the best play in NTT. I’m not sold on code of laws pre Astro, it’s a lot a techs you have to get, particularly if also skipping monarchy. Monarchy also for me only if there’s literally no other happiness (bear in mind NTT brings into play an early calendar, normally traded for in tech trading, but on the Astro path). This map I would say is an exception where monarchy is needed, but I still wouldn’t go code of laws.

Currency as well…I dunno. It’s a cheap tech: you have to go maths and alphabet anyway, but because you have to go alphabet the benefit is limited to basically the trade routes (5-6 commerce). Whilst nice, I have been teching it whilst caravels are on their way. The extra trade route gets its true value post Astro (and harbours).

As for aesthetics / literature…maybe I’m wrong but these just don’t seem worth it to me. There’s really no issue getting out the first wave of great people required with libraries. If you have marble, build the MoM, NTT makes this wonder a lot more feasible to shoot for!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

^ I will look into that, it's very interesting, CPK. Perhaps we didn't say it much but you're obviously very skilled. Coming from multiplayer, right ? That's cool.
I'm pretty much an Iso noob (like 5 maps). If you add NTT on top, well, you get it... I don't speak from authority. <- This is about the CS talk. I don't see it but I'm not confident either.

Thanks! I appreciate that. I'm coming from...the pandemic era lol. Although I did start multiplayer before this forum.

I was reminded that my 1260 AD Lib-->Astro date is probably not reliable. Admittedly, it's a hedged gamble where the risk was the 4 turn window between 1210 and 1250 AD, ( Liberalism bulb insertion at end of Machinery). However, Printing Press would've been a sub-par consolation prize for delayed Astronomy.

Consequently, my usual favor of Civil Service over Astronomy rush is probably a moot point on this map.


Here's the rationale behind my " Academy as a wonder" strategy --> This is all pretty much founded on the premise that Pottery is not a functional 4th or 5th tech, but rather an 8th or 9th tech gated by Iron Working. As such, tech is ****, but any Oracle or GLH play puts huge pressure on GP generation, when things like COL and Great Library are locked behind this (Pottery, Iron Working) --> Monarchy requirement.

Details below:

Spoiler Astro date :

T0: Settler start per usual. 2nd city builds workboat for 1st city to accelerate worker

Tech path: Fishing, AH, Mining, Writing, Bronze Working, The Wheel

T54: Library in - Settler will chop out in 3 turns, and takes the Pig for city #3. Double scientists take the remaining food surplus

T71: Iron Working and Pottery in ---> Great Scientist born in on T75 (1000 BC) - keeping on pace with a normal game for Academy (establishing Monarchy is more efficient stacked in one city) and 2 scientists for Astronomy.

T95: Monarchy in. 500 BC Monarchy is actually my fastest Monarchy on this map, sans an Oracle --> Monarchy play. By the reasoning above, an Oracle for Monarchy play eliminates an Academy play and also delays the (Iron Working/Pottery) gate.

In the spirit of sustainable game-play, I am not gambling for the Great Library from here....without the early library play, I think COL would be necessary, but would have little benefit besides running merchants in a few cities (not much food!) for a slightly higher tech ratio. As such, I "beeline" to Optics --> Astronomy bulb.

T161: Astronomy double bulb - Currency 3 turns behind...close enough considering I need to meet a few more AI in a second.

A couple notes:

1. On this run-through, Liberalism was discovered 250 years earlier. I would've lost it based on my original game-play.
2. Keeping a barbarian city up is nice for pillaging + training for a Heroic epic. A pity the city is on a hill. Also a pity that Temple of Artemis went early (marble failgold option removed).
3. T138 (560 AD) would have been my Bureaucracy date on this play-through. At somewhere around 30 commerce for beakers at breakeven in that window, my net loss deficit that I must "catch up" via Astro first is ~1800 beakers. This number is lower than I normally expect due to how late Civil Service would have arrived.
4. Most cities without happiness resources can be configured to have a net production near zero. My Mfg is 16 on this turn.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I wonder why you use the No Growth option when you have access to Hereditary Rule. I also kind of think you could be in a better position with a couple more cities settled. More global caps, more tiles developped, more resources hooked up (duplicates but still useful for food and trade). If going for a cottage economy, the maintenance hits should likely be taken asap. In this case, it might mean asap after Monarcfhy. From 500 BC to 1000 AD, the extra cities have ample time to pay off.

No growth was a recent thing where I hooked Iron, fearing barbarian longbows - took the consolation prize of pillaging barbarian cottages....not a great play to be honest. No cities were founded because the only food option left was the dry rice, and I spent most of the limited production on warriors and some infrastructure that would be needed later. If you're interested, here's the Monarchy save:

 

[Henrik75]

ya'll giga chads blowing my mind with this level of thought on the map.

 

[konata_LS]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

Thanks for the strategy suggestion. Yes, trebs and galleons might work well at Monarch. Though my treb attack almost never succeeds, even my target and I are in the same landmass . I think I need to improve my empire management and wartime build-up .

I find it difficult most of the time under NTT to acquire Astro and then make it in time to Liberalism for something else - grabbing Liberalism is in part under intention of AI denial.

Another usefulness fof Lib is the Communism and State Property. In the standard games when the tech trade is allowed, people often can get Lib and SMethods trough trade, as both techs unlock no military units or buildings. In NTT games, it's impossible to get Lib through trade. Since we have to self-tech Lib sooner or later, trying to win the lib race is not a bad idea.

@Gwaja
Thanks to Henrik as well. Both isolation and NTT are Henrik's idea. He also asked to avoid choosing FIN leaders for the human player .

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Jungle is horrible. Not sure if you remember your first stream: even with a good leader that you're quite used to play, your empire were slowed down by the jungle. If there were gems or dyes under jungle, the high tile and +1 - would probably pay off the numerous worker turns to clean jungle. But a bare 2 grass tile can rarely pay off these worker turns.

I wonder if the two Indian leaders would probably deal better than Charly with such a jungle island...? Unlike normal workers, Indian UU can move in the jungle and start cleaning on the same turn. Cleaning jungle one turn earlier means we can cottage one turn earlier, or farming it to make cities grow one turn faster. Besides, both Indians leaders are SPI. They can temporarily adopt Serfdom for cutting jungle, then switch back to slavery to whip infrastructure.

@Nick723
MoM is interesting approach. To get early Calendar, the tech path would be Writing-Maths-Sailing-Calendar-Masonry..? In this case, both Monarchy and IW would be delayed though.

 

[crashmon]

Will you be putting this on you-tube @Henrik75 ?

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Thank you, it interests me indeed. I looked at it.
It led me to reconsider my tech path, that and the discussion over wonders + Academy. I used to max out on the research bonuses (Agri before Pottery) but now think it's wrong.
Even going for the GLH (t57), setting up the earliest Library is a big stake. So, I am now going The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing after the GLH is done. The Library completes T75 (research resumes) and the first GP can be produced out of Aachen T82 (50% Merchant/Scientist). The GP outcome is RNG dependent but, at least, the bulk of the GM weight is taken out for future GPs.

What is your plan if it turns out to be a Great Merchant? The only viable candidate I have experimented with for being failsafe against 1st Great Prophet/Merchant is to oracle Aesthetics.

 

[Henrik75]

bump
don't think this has been beaten yet? would love to see if anyone can do it! this map continues to haunt me to this day

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I don't think map knowledge counts as beating but still interesting map. Anyway I would espionage.

 

[Fippy]

I believe with T74 Pyras (which i'd consider fairly safe still on Imm..not so much on deity ) now would be just grinding thru some jungle (barbs) for spots.
The 2 biggest problems (happy & beakers) should be solved long-term.
2 Archers cos barbs are certainly annoying here. Aachen could split pigs with another city (jungle rice) later, 2 lighthouse clams should be plenty .

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

don't think this has been beaten yet?

translation: CPK hasn't finished his game yet

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

translation: CPK hasn't finished his game yet

LOL! Thanks for the vote of confidence.

As mentioned in my previous posts, my tests of tradeoff between "rushing" Astronomy by 1010 AD vs gimmick grabbing the tech via Liberalism around 1260 AD on Immortal made me not wish to continue the map. That late of an interaction with the rest of the map would make the win conditional on off-map behavior. Maybe liberalism goes earlier? Maybe it goes later. Maybe someone gets vassaled, maybe some ruins the conqueror's day. Maybe we gamble on a wonder being available late.

In short, I *think* I could play out one of these saves to a win. However, I did not come up with anything last year that would guarantee a win without some element of game-changing luck.

 

[Henrik75]

1260ad lib is pretty damn late, usually it goes between 900-1100ad, so yeah I guess it just comes down to grinding RNG. Similarly you can reroll until you get away with a 1ad great library

Double bulb astronomy+ medieval rush worth it at all?

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

1260ad lib is pretty damn late, usually it goes between 900-1100ad, so yeah I guess it just comes down to grinding RNG. Similarly you can reroll until you get away with a 1ad great library

Double bulb astronomy+ medieval rush worth it at all?

Well with the pre-Astronomy happiness cap, the production is going to be hard to come by. My default plan for either of the above save would've been to go with @sylvanllewelyn 's espionage plan + drafting.

I still think the proof of victory would be shown by shaving down the Astronomy via double bulb date to around 6-700 AD, and maybe Astronomy via liberalism to 1000 AD. There are always ways to wager some luck after.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

That's basically the whole thread: how to shave down the Astronomy date? @Fippy 's Pyramids approach is interesting. I am just upset that Colossus is not possible.

 

[gamerbloke]

Hi all, long time lurker first time poster here.

I remember playing around with this save last year, I am a bit of a fan of tricky starts and this one certainly counts!

I have added my 1150 Astro save (Buffy mod) from the second time I had a run at it, which I think is a strong and potentially winning position ( didn't play it out much further I am pretty bad at finishing games...)

The first time I think was an early Optics bulb to meet AI and start getting some tech discounts but with 5 or so cities and the original capital it felt severely undeveloped and too far behind

Second time I thought it might be fun to try leverage what advantages were available with the leader.

So went for the early Oracle, and early GP which I settled ( was lucky to get a scientist but prophet would have been ok ). Moved the capital and used OR to get Rathouses up in most cities. Expanded to 8 cities with the cheaper settlers but kept unit costs as low as possible using only the religion plus HR for happy, staying at 6 pop except for capital. Went into caste fairly early on to avoid needing libraries and gather enuff GP for Astro bulb after settle / academy.

Starting city had nice production to get some swords out and take barb city, up to 9 at time of save, 2 settlers building for when Astro is in, the Oracle city has been running a priest for a long time and this is not so much for the shrine as the discount for tech stealing When I played it last time I went to Nationalism next for the espionage bonus in all cities but now I think about it just going for Engineering and cheap protective castles for the trade route + bonus would be better, can steal Nationalism and revolt then Work towards Rifling with steals while growing pop and then draft Protective army and crush

Anyway here is the situation 1 turn before Astro is in, I hope it proves valuable !

Spoiler 1150 AD :

 

[sucksatciv]

I can't believe people are still playing this impossible map, I tried it like three times a year ago and gave up because of how awful it was

 

[sampsa]

I can't believe people are still playing this impossible map, I tried it like three times a year ago and gave up because of how awful it was

But it's immortal! Can it really be harder than an average deity isolation?

 

[Henrik75]

Yes, yes it can hahahaha.

Spoiler :

I think the fact it's no tech trade + TERRIBLE land makes it super hard forcing you to build up a trash capital or slowly move and build up a new jungle choked capital, with very minimal resources compared to standard isolation maps.
Plus the rivals are very strong with strong starts & peace vassalling happens almost every time.
Definitely harder than a normal deity isolation with tech trading on; where you can just bulb astro 500ad and trade your way from classical to renaissence era.

as for this map, I think you can get the astro bulb earlier down to 1000AD if you are going that route

 

[AcaMetis]

Out of curiosity, how does Immortal+NTT Iso compare with the (not actually) "impossible" Charly map I rolled and posted a while back in that prepare to die topic?