Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[konata_LS]

The turn before the tech leader declared war on me and the game was lost shortly after. One picture.

Spoiler :

The key problem was that the Ottomans were "pleased" with everyone the whole time. Every time I attack a player, I got "-1 you declared war on a friend" which accumulated. No tech trading meant I had limited diplomatic options.

View attachment 635010

Discussion for @konata_LS
I believe I lost because my micromanagement was not good enough. I still believe my overall strategy was sound.

Spoiler :

- Oracle or Great Lighthouse.
- Three Great Scientists. The 2nd for optics, the 3rd and 4th for astronomy. The 1st is probably not a GS. Settle it as a super specialist.
- After astronomy, go down the military-science path and take land. More units and more cities is better than infrastructure. Rathaus + TGL was doing ridiculous work.
- My eventual plan was ICBMs, galleons, and rifles. I could have done it if I wasn't attacked. The Ottomans had mechanised infantry but otherwise the tech rate wasn't impressive.

I don't think religious or cultural were options. If we committed to building the AP, then our normal development would have been delayed even more, and then our optics date will be slower than a normal astronomy date, by which point everyone is already in free religion. With cultural, you have to get astronomy and then wait for religions to spread, which is too late. NTT makes diplomatic difficult, even the backdoor (farmville) variety.

Well played.
Sorry about that unlucky DoW. You've got impressive progress for such a tough start and against many strong AI opponents. The lonely island of HRE is really poor. If I played this map on Monarch, I would click on Retire around T30 or just reroll the map from T0.

Spoiler :

It's hard to tell if micromanagement is good or not without a save. Plus I'm terrible at managing my workers and cities so I'm not competent enough to judge others' micromanagement .
I agree with your strategic choices: try an early wonder, generating some GPP, conquer land after Astro, aiming at military or UN victory. You're also right about the diplo situation with these AIs: many of them have similar peace weight, and more than half of them love HR. Even under different state religions, most of them are pleased with each other. The accumulated -1 penalty from "declare war on our friend" may lead to a bad surprise.

Another downside of these AIs is the peaceful vassal. AIs who loves HR often go for early Monarchy, which leads to early Feudalism --> vassal state unlocked. In an off-line game that I lost on Emperor, far away 6 city Capac peace vassal to 15 city Gilgamesh, Capac finished Pentagon, Giggle got Infantry while I still used Muskets and cannons. Rage-quit.

In terms of the early wonders, I think Oracle, GLH, and GLib are all potential choice. However, each of them has some risk:
1) it's possible to lose oracle, as the AIs who like HR tend to tech PH-Monarchy and build early oracle. Especially Louis and Capac are IND.
2) GLH is tempting but Hannibal has a coastal start with high . GLH would be gone very fast if Hannibal decides to build it.
3) GLib is not secure neither. Both Sully and Louis have high culture flavour. Louis has both cheap library and cheap wonders. "Louis for GLib" is similar to "Roosevelt for GLH".
Grabbing one of these wonders would be of great help for the empire. OTOH, with a weak leader like Charlie, I don't think we can build all of three wonders. We need to carefully think about our choice and execute it quickly.

The jungle in Charlie's island is terrible: unlike forests, the jungle is somewhat a "black hole" which swallows countless worker turns to clean it without any output. Not to mention the expensive IW required for cutting jungle. A side effect from these resourceless jungle tiles is: after Astronomy, the human player has almost no resource to offer in the trade with AIs.

Thanks for sharing your write-up and opinions. Hope you've learnt or practised something from this map.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@BornInCantaloup Aahh! You're right! Why didn't I think of espionage? I want to scream. I want to cry😭.

Spoiler :

The worst part is I just did that in NC304. I learnt the correct magic spell and then forgot I had it.

I loaded the game from when I attacked Sumeria. Turn up the espionage slider. Move the palace to Uruk. Raze the other cities. Plant a new city. Spread Confucianism. Stack 25 spies. Gift to the French. Pick their techs clean. Domination victory became trivial by that point. I had cities and land, I just needed to catch up.

@konata_LS Monatch difficult doesn't change too much. My approach would be similar.

Spoiler :

I still wouldn't go down the aesthetics path. I would still beeline astronomy. I would still go for Oracle and Confucianism.

Since the Oracle date will be later, I would go fishing, mining, bronze working, TW, pottery, polytheism, priesthood, writing.

My first victim will still be hit by knights and trebuchets. My second victim will still be hit by cannons and granadiers.

While I am hitting my second victim, I will research civil service, philosophy, nationalism. My third victim will be the Ottomans. I will bulk up my army with drafted muskets because Iwill need many warm bodies to clear out the units softened by cannons.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

You had the best Astro date provided in this thread, Sylvanllewelyn.
Granted, other people didn't prioritize it (and I don't understand why - their fault). I gather you came short on science. Still, I would think your trial is the best of them all.
NTT...Is like an extra difficulty level. If we take so long to take off, then maybe investing into an espionnage economy (mostly passive) can do a lot of good.

I'm not sure about your gpp plan but I kinda trust you on that matter, too. I didn't play that far.

I am not so sure beeline to Astronomy is the right play - baseline GNP is still necessary to get to the desired military tech to stay competitive in the game.

I also have second thoughts on having the first great person be a merchant - w/o philosophical traits, and delays to writing, there is huge pressure on generating future GPP. I think the Civil Service + Academy route is much more enticing with no-tech trading.

Spoiler Astro dates :

GLH to Astro beeline w/ Currency bulb - federation of small city states:
Astronomy date: T166 - 1060 AD.
Beakers at breakeven, w/ contact: ~140

Astronomy via Liberalism:
Astronomy date: T186 - 1260 AD
Beakers at breakeven w/o contact: ~190
Beakers at breakeven, w/ contact: ~280

Tech difference to cover between 166 and 186, not counting Liberalism.

++ 8,269 beakers: Meditation, Priesthood, Monarchy, Aesthetics, COL, Civil Service, Paper, Education, Philosophy.
- - 650 beakers: Currency

Required BPT, assuming 1.2x multiplier: 310.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

With TGL, I find it difficult to imagine that civil service or currency gives a bigger commerce boost than astronomy, but I suppose it's possible. I'm not sure if I understand the distinction between "baseline GNP" and "trade routes GNP". By the time someone enters mercantilism, someone else enters free market. Trade routes only definitely disappear when you attack someone but by then we've reached our goal - - an army and navy to break out.

You could be pedantic and say we should start with the final turn and then think backwards. We don't because it's intractable. We make simplifying assumptions. Interestingly, someone mentioned that religion might be an example: later and/or weaker astronomy than TGL, but the post-astronomy religious benefits may be strong enough to catch up.

Back to astronomy beeline. Even with tech trading, monarchy is a common "diversion" that results in getting astronomy sooner. For NTT isolation, currency and civil service may result in this category. Don't know. Never tried.

Oracle and TGL approaches differ in how to treat great persons.

With TGL, we get pottery early, so we get writing early, so we build library early, so we can "race" to get a great scientist within 50 turns after TGL. I like gene pool purity too.

With the Oracle, depending on what you do with it, we might not even be able to get simple worker techs without settling the first great person! That's why I don't go Oracle or early wonders unless the situation is desperate (like here). In that case, GM, GS, GP all give gold/science so there's no reason to waste GPP points or to delay the first GP.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup Aahh! You're right! Why didn't I think of espionage? I want to scream. I want to cry😭.

Spoiler :

The worst part is I just did that in NC304. I learnt the correct magic spell and then forgot I had it.

Well, you did it That's good enough in my book !
Glad to hear it worked out nicely.

I am not so sure beeline to Astronomy is the right play - baseline GNP is still necessary to get to the desired military tech to stay competitive in the game.

Yes, absolutely, agreed. We had the same conversation in the other recent Iso threads. When I mentionned "beeline", I had not in mind to skip Monarchy and/or Code of Laws. In fact, I want both of those techs.
I had in mind the way Henrik, Krikav and you all researched through Civil Service (iirc). I still haven't understood why you all simultaneously decided to do that, on this particular map, whereas it is the odd thing to do.
I guess I should have written "Astro bulb", rather than "beeline".

I have a very limited opinion on the Currency bulb but I believe you are right to relativize it.
For starters, it is a BAT only thing. Alpha/Maths are pre-reqs and low priority. And then, it does make all subsequent GPs more costly, on a map where I would want to 2x bulb Astronomy (or bulb into Edu/Lib, in your case).
Researching techs that come with benefits (Monarchy / CoL) seems stronger to me than starting with Alpha/Maths and not improving the happy cap. If we "need" to bulb with a GM ('cause we failed to produce a scientist), we can bulb Metal Casting.

I'm not sure if I understand the distinction between "baseline GNP" and "trade routes GNP".

CPK means that if Astronomy is the sole source of commerce, then getting Astro earlier does not compare well with developping cities.
Size 4 cities with Astronomy will indeed perform worse than size 16 cities without. Well, sure... This is why we want Monarchy/CoL
In the same train of thought, powering through CS, Philo, Paper, Edu and Lib (wow, that's all very expensive) before Machinery, Optics, Maths, Alpha, Calendar is a considerable delay towards trades for corn, wheat, gold, gems, silver and the like. All those resource trades (esp health) are crucial to ease up city growth and develop baseline GNP.

Finally, a big part of the appeal of the Astro bulb is that it still leaves Liberalism as a possible play post Astro. It's not an either/or situation if we can have both. Maybe we can't have both on this map, I don't know.
In my mind, not burning a GP on an early bulb and not burning Lib on Astro are very similar arguments.

 

[drewisfat]

@BornInCantaloup I had been assuming that unmodded the individual trade routes were just visually rounded but the total would include the fractions. I thought BAT was unaltered gameplay. I've been cheating this whole time?
Is there a way to turn it off? Is there anything else like this?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup I had been assuming that unmodded the individual trade routes were just visually rounded but the total would include the fractions. I thought BAT was unaltered gameplay. I've been cheating this whole time?
Is there a way to turn it off? Is there anything else like this?

It's possible I misunderstood it all when you used the expression "Precise Trade Routes". It left the impression it was an option to be ticked on/off.
I wouldn't call using a mod cheating, though. And if it's an extra perk, well, sure, you should use it !
It's not clear to me, however, that researching Alpha without 8 cows, in order to bulb Currency, ends up better than going straight towards Monarchy.

The Precise Trade Routes stuff ends up giving +1 per city, right ? And Currency does +1 on its own. So +2 per city, per turn.
It's a good rate but... I'd think happy cap is a better investment (HR) and Metal Casting bulb would contend quite well, in general. Here, with NTT, Alpha+Math are pre-reqs to the Astro bulb, so it's possible that a MC bulb loses a lot of value. I can see that.

Bottom Line : I don't know what Precise Trade Routes is.
Question : Do you always use BAT ?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

With GLh I almost always bulb currency. The reason is if you use precise trade routes, each one gives 1.25 not 1. With GLh you're at 3.75, which rounds down to 3. With just the 1 extra trade route from currency, you get to 5.

I don't say I understand this right. This is just the way I understand it.
Trade routes are rounded down individually. Unless we use precise trade routes and they're rounded down globally.

Alpha + Currency bulb vs Monarchy still is a question and I would favour Monarchy. CoL last (before heading into the Optics stuff) to speed up production.

The GLH isn't just an Iso wonder. Getting our hands on Currency is a lot easier with a) neighbours and b) trades on. So, the tip is still good (I think ?).

On this map : if I went Oracle instead of GLH, I would still Oracle Monarchy vs CoL.
However, I have realized the value of Philo, here. NTT means we can't trade for Alpha+Maths post Optics and those are the exact requirements for the Philo bulb. So, we should probably do that.

 

[drewisfat]

I didn't realize BAT changed something as tangible as potential commerce income. On the one hand, it totally seems like a game oversight not to fix that rounding in BTS. But like it also makes arguably the most OP wonder even better, which seems like cheaty mccheatcheat. I assumed it must have been one of the many BUG options that I just happened to have checked off for BAT and not BUFFY. When I said "use precise trade routes" I was just improvising what that hypothetical setting would be called.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Fair enough
I have no issues with anybody using that feature (as I said : "good tip !"). I don't think it's borken to the point we should alter a tech path to make use of it. We can call it a fix, I bet that's what the modders called it.
I just checked it out, though, and can confirm : the base game (BUG + BULL) provides 4 commerce only with GLH + Currency.

No big deal. I'd never call that cheating.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I was just improvising what that hypothetical setting would be called.

Yeah, sure, you can say that but from now on we will call it Precise Trade Routes and nobody will stop us

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

CPK means that if Astronomy is the sole source of commerce, then getting Astro earlier does not compare well with developping cities.
Size 4 cities with Astronomy will indeed perform worse than size 16 cities without. Well, sure... This is why we want Monarchy/CoL
In the same train of thought, powering through CS, Philo, Paper, Edu and Lib (wow, that's all very expensive) before Machinery, Optics, Maths, Alpha, Calendar is a considerable delay towards trades for corn, wheat, gold, gems, silver and the like. All those resource trades (esp health) are crucial to ease up city growth and develop baseline GNP.

Finally, a big part of the appeal of the Astro bulb is that it still leaves Liberalism as a possible play post Astro. It's not an either/or situation if we can have both. Maybe we can't have both on this map, I don't know.
In my mind, not burning a GP on an early bulb and not burning Lib on Astro are very similar arguments.

Math + COL before Astro means CS is right on the door - there was some rough estimates from this other NTT thread about whether or not the earlier beakers from CS are worth it: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/imm-genghis-khan-isolation-game.665040/post-16155038

I find it difficult most of the time under NTT to acquire Astro and then make it in time to Liberalism for something else - grabbing Liberalism is in part under intention of AI denial.

I didn't realize BAT changed something as tangible as potential commerce income. On the one hand, it totally seems like a game oversight not to fix that rounding in BTS. But like it also makes arguably the most OP wonder even better, which seems like cheaty mccheatcheat. I assumed it must have been one of the many BUG options that I just happened to have checked off for BAT and not BUFFY. When I said "use precise trade routes" I was just improvising what that hypothetical setting would be called.

RIP I committed to the Currency bulb strategy on blind faith - I don't have BAT. I think @BornInCantaloup is right in that Metal Casting bulb is probably the best bet there. Currently played a few turns where the wonder I'm rushing is......the Academy. I think it looks good so far. Will report later.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ I will look into that, it's very interesting, CPK. Perhaps we didn't say it much but you're obviously very skilled. Coming from multiplayer, right ? That's cool.
I'm pretty much an Iso noob (like 5 maps). If you add NTT on top, well, you get it... I don't speak from authority. <- This is about the CS talk. I don't see it but I'm not confident either.

The thing that I can't handle on this map is city placement.
Krikav went all riverside in his first run and did really good (all things considered). I keep hugging the East coast and/or over-expanding (I did a run today).
In none of my runs did I settle a city 3N of the capital but I'm starting to see the value.
This is related to tech path, too. Maybe Monarchy before Iron Working has a place.

 

[Gwaja]

I have not rolled a map as uniquely challenging as this map on Immortal, for a very long time. Very good for practice and honing our game skills.

As soon as I have some time to actually sit down and play again (return from a long vacation = lots of catching up to do), I want to play this to the end.

Many thanks to @konata_LS for this map!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

^ I will look into that, it's very interesting, CPK. Perhaps we didn't say it much but you're obviously very skilled. Coming from multiplayer, right ? That's cool.
I'm pretty much an Iso noob (like 5 maps). If you add NTT on top, well, you get it... I don't speak from authority. <- This is about the CS talk. I don't see it but I'm not confident either.

CS or not in NTT iso; I also defer this to the experts.

I find it difficult most of the time under NTT to acquire Astro and then make it in time to Liberalism for something else - grabbing Liberalism is in part under intention of AI denial.

But isn't liberalism denial less important in NTT?

I have not rolled a map as uniquely challenging as this map on Immortal, for a very long time. Very good for practice and honing our game skills.

Oh yes it is uniquely challenging.

Spoiler :

We quickly find out that there's no copper. I was disappointed because my initial plan was to Oracle for metal casting and then lean on the Colossus.

Later on you will find out that there's no uranium. I was fortunate to have one source because I made a risky, all-out attack on someone beforehand. I'm not sure how we can win without some nuclear support.

 

[Nick723]

I’ve been playing a bit of NTT isolation, inspired by the map. I’m by no means an expert…but my thoughts on tech path.

I generally think that the Astro beeline is still the best play in NTT. I’m not sold on code of laws pre Astro, it’s a lot a techs you have to get, particularly if also skipping monarchy. Monarchy also for me only if there’s literally no other happiness (bear in mind NTT brings into play an early calendar, normally traded for in tech trading, but on the Astro path). This map I would say is an exception where monarchy is needed, but I still wouldn’t go code of laws.

Currency as well…I dunno. It’s a cheap tech: you have to go maths and alphabet anyway, but because you have to go alphabet the benefit is limited to basically the trade routes (5-6 commerce). Whilst nice, I have been teching it whilst caravels are on their way. The extra trade route gets its true value post Astro (and harbours).

As for aesthetics / literature…maybe I’m wrong but these just don’t seem worth it to me. There’s really no issue getting out the first wave of great people required with libraries. If you have marble, build the MoM, NTT makes this wonder a lot more feasible to shoot for!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

^ I will look into that, it's very interesting, CPK. Perhaps we didn't say it much but you're obviously very skilled. Coming from multiplayer, right ? That's cool.
I'm pretty much an Iso noob (like 5 maps). If you add NTT on top, well, you get it... I don't speak from authority. <- This is about the CS talk. I don't see it but I'm not confident either.

Thanks! I appreciate that. I'm coming from...the pandemic era lol. Although I did start multiplayer before this forum.

I was reminded that my 1260 AD Lib-->Astro date is probably not reliable. Admittedly, it's a hedged gamble where the risk was the 4 turn window between 1210 and 1250 AD, ( Liberalism bulb insertion at end of Machinery). However, Printing Press would've been a sub-par consolation prize for delayed Astronomy.

Consequently, my usual favor of Civil Service over Astronomy rush is probably a moot point on this map.


Here's the rationale behind my " Academy as a wonder" strategy --> This is all pretty much founded on the premise that Pottery is not a functional 4th or 5th tech, but rather an 8th or 9th tech gated by Iron Working. As such, tech is horsehocky, but any Oracle or GLH play puts huge pressure on GP generation, when things like COL and Great Library are locked behind this (Pottery, Iron Working) --> Monarchy requirement.

Details below:

Spoiler Astro date :

T0: Settler start per usual. 2nd city builds workboat for 1st city to accelerate worker

Tech path: Fishing, AH, Mining, Writing, Bronze Working, The Wheel

T54: Library in - Settler will chop out in 3 turns, and takes the Pig for city #3. Double scientists take the remaining food surplus

T71: Iron Working and Pottery in ---> Great Scientist born in on T75 (1000 BC) - keeping on pace with a normal game for Academy (establishing Monarchy is more efficient stacked in one city) and 2 scientists for Astronomy.

T95: Monarchy in. 500 BC Monarchy is actually my fastest Monarchy on this map, sans an Oracle --> Monarchy play. By the reasoning above, an Oracle for Monarchy play eliminates an Academy play and also delays the (Iron Working/Pottery) gate.

In the spirit of sustainable game-play, I am not gambling for the Great Library from here....without the early library play, I think COL would be necessary, but would have little benefit besides running merchants in a few cities (not much food!) for a slightly higher tech ratio. As such, I "beeline" to Optics --> Astronomy bulb.

T161: Astronomy double bulb - Currency 3 turns behind...close enough considering I need to meet a few more AI in a second.

A couple notes:

1. On this run-through, Liberalism was discovered 250 years earlier. I would've lost it based on my original game-play.
2. Keeping a barbarian city up is nice for pillaging + training for a Heroic epic. A pity the city is on a hill. Also a pity that Temple of Artemis went early (marble failgold option removed).
3. T138 (560 AD) would have been my Bureaucracy date on this play-through. At somewhere around 30 commerce for beakers at breakeven in that window, my net loss deficit that I must "catch up" via Astro first is ~1800 beakers. This number is lower than I normally expect due to how late Civil Service would have arrived.
4. Most cities without happiness resources can be configured to have a net production near zero. My Mfg is 16 on this turn.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

any Oracle or GLH play puts huge pressure on GP generation

Yes, this makes perfect sense (except if Oracle -> Code of Laws, since that's likely the earliest Academy). It's very hard to get a Library up in time to avoid spawning a GM in Aachen and, even then, Aachen keeps slowrolling its GM
So, it takes the city out of commission for further GS consideration AND it isn't a single early Library that's needed but rather 2 or 3. Given Charlie's traits and our health/happy caps, this is very difficult.
Post GLH, this is why I want CoL, by the way, because I think a 4th great people is needed. Aachen has to spawn its great merchant, eventually. It is then properly suited to catch up, using Caste specialists.

I took a peek at your save, it looks good. The Nuremberg megalopolis really pays off, yes ?
I wonder why you use the No Growth option when you have access to Hereditary Rule. I also kind of think you could be in a better position with a couple more cities settled. More global caps, more tiles developped, more resources hooked up (duplicates but still useful for food and trade). If going for a cottage economy, the maintenance hits should likely be taken asap. In this case, it might mean asap after Monarchy. From 500 BC to 1000 AD, the extra cities have ample time to pay off.
1680 BC Confu, 1520 BC Oracle could explain the "early" Liberalism from the AIs.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I wonder why you use the No Growth option when you have access to Hereditary Rule. I also kind of think you could be in a better position with a couple more cities settled. More global caps, more tiles developped, more resources hooked up (duplicates but still useful for food and trade). If going for a cottage economy, the maintenance hits should likely be taken asap. In this case, it might mean asap after Monarcfhy. From 500 BC to 1000 AD, the extra cities have ample time to pay off.

No growth was a recent thing where I hooked Iron, fearing barbarian longbows - took the consolation prize of pillaging barbarian cottages....not a great play to be honest. No cities were founded because the only food option left was the dry rice, and I spent most of the limited production on warriors and some infrastructure that would be needed later. If you're interested, here's the Monarchy save:

 

[Henrik75]

ya'll giga chads blowing my mind with this level of thought on the map.