Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[Henrik75]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Well played! It's looking good from here, what are your next plans? Forges into universities? Lib? Taj Mahal? Astronomy Bulb?

In regards to markets, ya I have played quite a few NTT in the past and can confirm they're a worthy investment.
1. you can't sell meditation to Shaka for 60 gold to keep your slider like so. This might not be important now but will be later on
2. The ridiculous amount of maintenance you pay on imm/deity is like 5 to 10x what the AI pays, and is going to continue going up. Even with Rathauses, unit cost, civic upkeep and inflation is going to drag your economy down and force you to drop the slider from 100.
3. Trade routes in all cities, and running wealth instead of research is really nice to boost the economy. As we know wealth is more beneficial than research in early and mid game.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

What is the difference in tech pace between "yes tech trading" and "no tech trading" on immortal? I don't understand all the detours and delays from the path to astronomy.

T121 philosophy bulb, is that "safe" or "risky" on immortal NTT?

 

[krikav]

@Henrik75

Spoiler Future plans... :

Well... I did think about lib and astro.
But at least som AIs seem to be doing good.

Thats good! Helps with planning.
Some forges I do need. But it's abit reluctant since they do not give any happines, and they DO give unhealth which is already a problem. But they are needed sooner or later so I build them nonetheless.
Plan now is simply to get to optics, meet the crowd and hopefully make up some plan.
Education looks less tempting tbh.

I realize too, that since I'm in pacifism but only halfheartedly... I pay a fortune for unit upkeep for my myriad of warriors.

That was probably dumb... Should perhaps have went for Poly->mason->Mono and focused more on infrastructure instead.

 

[krikav]

What is the difference in tech pace between "yes tech trading" and "no tech trading" on immortal? I don't understand all the detours and delays from the path to astronomy.

T121 philosophy bulb, is that "safe" or "risky" on immortal NTT?

It sure did not feel safe.
No clue if it's normal or not, but where I do tend to bulb philo (pangaea / fractal deity with trading on ) I usually bulb it T100-T110, and I'm not first all the time when I do.

It depends alot on if there are religion hungry AIs that have been shafted of earlier religions.. and if someone pops a GSci they often bulb it too.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Today I learnt Spiritual is Charlemange's secret trait

It's interesting to see and discuss different approaches of the same map.

Spoiler :

Henrik said he'd like to have a tough isolation map, so I generated this one and sent to him. It's one of the worst islands I've ever seen. Apart from the lack of - and - , jungle is also a trouble. People rarely rush into the jungle in Pangaea-ish or Inland sea maps, but in isolation, there is nowhere to settle apart from these jungle tiles .
Such a horrible island is definitely not for someone's first win on Immortal. OTOH, some veteran players or those who want to practise isolation on Immortal may find this map interesting.

Hope you all enjoy the game

It certainly is an interesting map

Spoiler :

With jungle and desert revealed by early exploration, no tech trades, iso... This is quite an uncommon setup.
I think Krikav's and Carpool's no-wonder approach is perfectly viable (might even be best) but I lean on the yes-wonder side. I'm surprised nobody shows love for the GLH. Yes, we lack islands but the commerce generated every turn over the course of 100+ turns is ultimately huge. We can get to 10 commerce per turn relatively fast (5 cities) and there is a commerce explosion down the line with Astronomy.
Aachen is a production powerhouse and we have little room to expand into - we certainly don't want to crash the eco early. The wonder makes perfect sense to me.

I think the main cost of the GLH are early techs rather than hammers : Sailing/Masonry vs earlier Pottery/Iron Working.
Pottery vs Iron Working, in itself, is a very interesting dilemma. I ended up going IW first to secure the rice tiles but I can see the other way around being better. With a GLH approach, both paths might be roughly the same : we don't have enough workers to plant the cottages. Writing gets researched circa 750 BC
(Yes, I played it over a few times, because I toyed with my wonder date - I managed to get it earlier (yay) and then got killed by barbarians (nay).)

I don't know about Oracle -> CoL, here. There is the same downside as going GLH : Pottery/Iron are delayed. And it's not clear to me that early Confu/Caste/Rathauses bring great benefits.
I think I'd rather Oracle -> Monarchy. Now I can see the benefits.

On the early turns. There are some number of options afterwards but I definitely start it like this (T25) :

Spoiler :

^ Going for the GLH, that is. Otherwise, insert Wheel -> Pottery rather than Bronze after Mining.

What's the safer approach?

Spoiler :

I think there is an agreement that we want a religion.
1. We can Oracle for Confucianism.
2. Or wait for Confucianism to be founded somewhere, but go for Taoism.
3. Or go Stonehenge and Christianity.

I took path 1 but I am not sure if that is the safest choice. Safest means lowest chance of failure. We are isolated and have no information on the terrain and leaders outside.

Spoiler :

Pottery, Bronze, Iron, Monarchy is likely the safest. Bind your time on 3/4 cities while you unlock the necessary techs (delay maintenance).
Getting a religion is nice but not a requirement. The happiness is not a very relevant bonus compared with Hereditary Rule.
The real bonus comes from civics if/when you do run Org Rel or Pacifism.

On your other post, I agree with you that this map, despite NTT, should still be played towards an early-ish Astro bulb. Even without trades, Astro is that good. Trade routes and resource trades are a revolution.

On Tech Pace. It will be slowed down a little but Team Player is the one that's hurt badly. AIs don't always trade much to begin with.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T172 :

We have finally reached optics!

@BornInCantaloup GLH is interesting.
2 extra commerce in each coastal city is nothing to sneeze at. And a settled GMerchant could work too I think.
Makes alot of sense to go for it too, since we are most likely stuck in a commerce bottleneck early on before we have both IW+Pottery+WorkerArmy too.
And since it's iso, there is no penalty at all for not trying to claim land quick.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@krikav :

Spoiler :

On the GLH : the question is whether you're willing to delay Cottages for it or not. The early beaker cost is very real, since we could research Pottery before Bronze, Sailing and Masonry. We could also start on IW before Sailing and Masonry. The jungle is "far enough" that we can work in the 12 cottages with the first 3 cities (insert 4th if needed).
The GLH does take time to pay off. It means later Pott, IW, Writing, Libraries, Monarchy.
However, it is certain to pay off. We're talking at least 3000 beakers before it's obsolete. It seems like a lot but it's not really right to look at a T60 investment from a T200 perspective

A Merchant could be settled but it could also bulb Metal Casting. Could be acceptable. Of course, a Scientist would be better but the timing is difficult.

I like the GLH but still think no-wonders maintenance control could be best. Just developping the land is nice and helps fight maintenance in the same way the extra trade routes do. It also makes early survival a lot easier (I pushed to a T57 GLH but then I died ).
The late-game plateau is much higher, though. The GLH gives something like +70 commerce per turn with Astronomy (provided 7 coastal cities).

 

[Henrik75]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Looking at my footage (I played until 1500AD in the next part so won't spoil)
I ended up in a very similar tech rate to you it seems, but i don't think I used pacifism all game (Skipped philo bulb all together and bulb edu then prenting press for universities + village/town boost.
While I was slower, I think the scientist pump from great library helped me catch up and put me in a half decent position after edu and PP.
ended up with 1400AD optics and 1500AD astronomy yikes. I want to replay and see if I can be in a similar position 10 turns earlier without doing oracle CoL and focusing on early developement, or maybe great lighthouse instead. Should be interesting.

I think the Philo bulb makes sense to get religion for happiness, but pacifism might be a mistake if the unit cost is bad and we are looking to whip/build infrastructure.

Going to try some of these strats out, thank you guys I learned a lot

 

[krikav]

AI contact (almost all land and all AI known.

Spoiler T181 :

Pericles has made a vassal of Gilgamesh... And seems to be getting his ass kicked by Louis.
Sulieman has reined in Capac.
Hannibal is blazing away, has cuirs and free market now, and seems to have found a colony to spread to. :|

They don't seem to be that slowed down!

On the upside, I think Louis/Pericles/Gilgamesh offers an opening. It certainly looks like I could tech to rifles/cannons and chip away at them.
Pricles is a major culture threat, has 4 religions and Sistine, so he have to be stopped anyway.

Sadly... I'm preoccupied a few days from now, so will likely not have more time to play this map. Want to continue though, would be very fun to finish a NTT game for once.
Will check this thread though!

 

[soundjata]

T107

Spoiler :

Completed the Apostolic Palace last turn but could not get elected because there is no consensus among members

Civics are Caste & OR since fogbusters are out (2 archers + 3 warriors + scout).

Hill barb city has culture. Could be a training ground (Heroic Epic)

Production close to zero so far : beeline Monotheism after CoL in order to bulb Theology and build the AP.
Need to build many Confused temples and monasteries.

We have 2 religions so priests are available. Would love to get Angkor Wat but maybe that is a luxury

Tech order after Theo : (wait for cap library) Bronze and Iron Working (was spoiled about the iron tile) then Agriculture.

Now I think we can do growth tech (AH, Sailing, Wheel) and prepare a Marble City for Sankore.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Soundjata

Spoiler :

Are you planning to build a Shrine with that Priest you're hiring ?

Sankore requires stone. I hope it doesn't ruin your plans.
You could bulb Civil Service if you researched Maths (who needs The Wheel anyway ?). Maybe would help with the hammers.

 

[soundjata]

BIC

Spoiler :

Excellent observation on Sankore + stone.
So yay, it's an improvement of the plan since we do not need to chase any marble city (sailing is expensive too)
Aachen is gonna build Sankore and Minaret like a real capitol
Next Priest is for Paper. Need Monarchy, which I should beeline right now (who needs the wheel and AH anyways)


Edit: oh sheee... Priest will bulb Philo > Aesthetics > Paper.
Angkor Wat is back in line (and Pacifism = moar great profits)

 

[BornInCantaloup]

BIC

Spoiler :

Next Priest is for Paper.

Edit: oh sheee... Priest will bulb Philo

Spoiler :

I thought that was the plan until I realized the same thing

 

[georgjorge]

I think there's no spoiler involved here, as those dates will vary a lot between games:

Fiddled around with the map a bit, trying to get a religion via Oracle - Code of Laws. Failed! Oracle went to someone else in 1720BC (would have needed a few more turns for Writing), tried to get there without Oracle, but then Code of Laws went to someone else in 1560 BC. Some Immortal AIs know how to play ; )

 

[Henrik75]

I think there's no spoiler involved here, as those dates will vary a lot between games:

Fiddled around with the map a bit, trying to get a religion via Oracle - Code of Laws. Failed! Oracle went to someone else in 1720BC (would have needed a few more turns for Writing), tried to get there without Oracle, but then Code of Laws went to someone else in 1560 BC. Some Immortal AIs know how to play ; )

Great lighthouse went ding at 1640bc on my playthrough too. Fortunately 1840bc got me the oracle code of laws, but I had to maximize commerce and stay at one city to achieve it.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T186 :

T83: After acquiring Iron Working and future capital site, I grab pottery and writing. The saved chops now means my library and granary are complete in Aachen. Nuremberg settled to use 2 good resources while Aachen recovers from unhappiness while running 2 scientists. Nuremberg will also help Vienna grow cottages for periods of time

T102: Hereditary Rule adopted, Academy in. No point in waiting for the Academy to tech to Monarchy, since the intended target is a 3rd city and doesn't have the capital 8 commerce bonus anyways.

T128: A slow grind to Code of Laws - I settle Mainz now with Caste System culture expansion. Possible mistake made: Mathematics before COL (did it for the library chops) --> but probably could've gotten a bit more GP reversing that order. Also delayed COL for after Palace finished.

T141: 13 turns later, Civil Service is finally in. This tech is sponsored by pillaging the barbarian city hamlets. Taoism is still up so going to try for Philosophy next. Holding on to Scientists for double Education bulb.

T181: Lost race to Philosophy by 2 turns somewhere in between, so I started teching to Optics. 4th Great scientist is in. On this turn, I am 6 beakers away from Machinery (which would cancel a Liberalism bulb), and have obtained Alphabet/Aesthetics/Compass for a Liberalism bulb. This is enough money to full speed tech Optics + Liberalism for Astro. If the AI had obtained Liberalism before this turn, I would probably take the loss and bulb printing press instead.

T186: Liberalism --> Astronomy. Mistake made: it looks like I had enough gold to upgrade a Trireme, if I had done the math precisely.

Capital looks promising for the future:

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke You did finally get the palace up. Your future capital spot was better than mine since you grabbed rice and a pair of hills too.
Still room to settle some drafting city (granary+lighthouse+possibly barracks) along the coast.

I'm no fan at all of going so deep into unhealth though. At 7 unhealth, it's more or less equivalent of having a capital with 7 riverside tundra tiles.

Nice conservation of the forest, I did save 2 forest in the original capital too.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Great lighthouse went ding at 1640bc on my playthrough too. Fortunately 1840bc got me the oracle code of laws, but I had to maximize commerce and stay at one city to achieve it.

Yeah...

Spoiler :

I mentionned T60 for the GLH and hum... It's still rather early. It turns out that T65, on this map, is not safe. And there's no way to know about that before hand. It's actually quite unfortunate. I think that on Iso maps, more often than not, wonders tend to go late. The crew will skew things. What date were you going for ?
The GLH is much like the Oracle, in that it can go 1000's of years apart, depending on the map. Sometimes Ragnar will complete it in 2200 BC. It's much worse to fail the GLH in that timeframe than it is to fail the Oracle in 1200 BC, however. So, it's a wonder we need to gun for, no delays.

I did a few runs to the GLH. My earliest was T57 and I think that any turn later amounts to an extra warrior for land control.
I do think T60 is safe (and that amounts to 3 extra warriors) but there is an extra variable with the build order from city 2. I use size 4 Aachen to produce the settler for city 2 and then stagnate that city at size 2 (to produce another settler). It's very well possible that delaying the settler from city 2 and putting it on Warriors duty is enough to get the earliest GLH in Aachen and a safe Empire.
It's kind of gamey to play these things over and over again but it also goes to show what's possible and what's not and how to achieve it.

That said, building the GLH is just a mini puzzle, a game within the game. If you wish to practice on this map, I would advocate the no-wonder no-fluff all maintenance-control approach.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I think there's no spoiler involved here, as those dates will vary a lot between games:

Fiddled around with the map a bit, trying to get a religion via Oracle - Code of Laws. Failed! Oracle went to someone else in 1720BC (would have needed a few more turns for Writing), tried to get there without Oracle, but then Code of Laws went to someone else in 1560 BC. Some Immortal AIs know how to play ; )

The correct decision is not results-oriented. A random barbarian warrior can kill a fortified archer in your new expansion city at 99% odds.

I did a re-run. All early wonders gone, Pyramids gone 1560BC, Oracle and Confucianism gone even earlier, The Great Lighthouse gone even earlier.

Doesn't matter. I did another re-run. This time I purposefully left the Oracle incomplete. It was completed in 1520BC and I got 144 gold for my efforts. I went onto research monarchy at 100% research.

I still believe either the Oracle or The Great Lighthouse is correct. You get failgold. Monarchy requires the same techs. TGL only has a masonry detour. You want the lighthouse in your capital anyway. I still disagree with not building any wonders. If you don't try you can't fail but you risk falling behind.

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 211 / 1505 AD
big spoiler alert, all civs met

@krikav @CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Oxford just finished in capital as I reach astronomy. Beakers finally something half respectable.

Yikes these bastards already at rifling

I didn't do anything fancy, but i've whipped markets, forges, courthouses and universities and a couple observatories in all key cities, and completed oxford in the mediocre capital.

While not being the best commerce capital, the high production without stone or golden age allowed me to complete oxford pretty quickly with bureau bonus. Goodluck building oxford in the grassland cap is all i can say, doesn't seem like it'll happen until chemistry+caste workshops or mass whipping. Great scientist pump from great library and early academy in this place incentivize Oxford moreso. I believe in an early Oxford in a sub optimal location rather than a late one when the game is already decided. Whipping forges and universities was also key.

Regardless, I think I can still improve the play drastically after seeing other peoples perspectives. Great Library was certainly nice to bulb astro and PP, but I did not end up getting monarchy until 600AD and Civil Service until 1000AD.

I think I will try from scratch another approach: Iron Working and Monarchy bee line (after pottery), and then literature for great library afterward. Having early monarchy around 500BC (only settling 4-5 cities max until monarchy is reached) will be really strong, then teching math while chopping great library with marble settle and immediately currency CoL Philo bulb and CS after.

I think we all ended up in very similar situations and tech rates. In comparison, my research was 300BPT at 1200AD, before PP and Astro. I believe you guys made better play on early monarchy and IW bee line instead of pushing Oracle, but I think your possible mistakes are neglecting the important of infrastructure in a long game with NTT -> early markets, forges, courthouses and universities will help significantly, and having them up early means you won't have to whip away towns later on to complete them, and oxford would be ready to go.