Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[Henrik75]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Well played! It's looking good from here, what are your next plans? Forges into universities? Lib? Taj Mahal? Astronomy Bulb?

In regards to markets, ya I have played quite a few NTT in the past and can confirm they're a worthy investment.
1. you can't sell meditation to Shaka for 60 gold to keep your slider like so. This might not be important now but will be later on
2. The ridiculous amount of maintenance you pay on imm/deity is like 5 to 10x what the AI pays, and is going to continue going up. Even with Rathauses, unit cost, civic upkeep and inflation is going to drag your economy down and force you to drop the slider from 100.
3. Trade routes in all cities, and running wealth instead of research is really nice to boost the economy. As we know wealth is more beneficial than research in early and mid game.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

What is the difference in tech pace between "yes tech trading" and "no tech trading" on immortal? I don't understand all the detours and delays from the path to astronomy.

T121 philosophy bulb, is that "safe" or "risky" on immortal NTT?

 

[krikav]

@Henrik75

Spoiler Future plans... :

Well... I did think about lib and astro.
But at least som AIs seem to be doing good.

Thats good! Helps with planning.
Some forges I do need. But it's abit reluctant since they do not give any happines, and they DO give unhealth which is already a problem. But they are needed sooner or later so I build them nonetheless.
Plan now is simply to get to optics, meet the crowd and hopefully make up some plan.
Education looks less tempting tbh.

I realize too, that since I'm in pacifism but only halfheartedly... I pay a fortune for unit upkeep for my myriad of warriors.

That was probably dumb... Should perhaps have went for Poly->mason->Mono and focused more on infrastructure instead.

 

[krikav]

What is the difference in tech pace between "yes tech trading" and "no tech trading" on immortal? I don't understand all the detours and delays from the path to astronomy.

T121 philosophy bulb, is that "safe" or "risky" on immortal NTT?

It sure did not feel safe.
No clue if it's normal or not, but where I do tend to bulb philo (pangaea / fractal deity with trading on ) I usually bulb it T100-T110, and I'm not first all the time when I do.

It depends alot on if there are religion hungry AIs that have been shafted of earlier religions.. and if someone pops a GSci they often bulb it too.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T172 :

We have finally reached optics!

@BornInCantaloup GLH is interesting.
2 extra commerce in each coastal city is nothing to sneeze at. And a settled GMerchant could work too I think.
Makes alot of sense to go for it too, since we are most likely stuck in a commerce bottleneck early on before we have both IW+Pottery+WorkerArmy too.
And since it's iso, there is no penalty at all for not trying to claim land quick.

 

[Henrik75]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Looking at my footage (I played until 1500AD in the next part so won't spoil)
I ended up in a very similar tech rate to you it seems, but i don't think I used pacifism all game (Skipped philo bulb all together and bulb edu then prenting press for universities + village/town boost.
While I was slower, I think the scientist pump from great library helped me catch up and put me in a half decent position after edu and PP.
ended up with 1400AD optics and 1500AD astronomy yikes. I want to replay and see if I can be in a similar position 10 turns earlier without doing oracle CoL and focusing on early developement, or maybe great lighthouse instead. Should be interesting.

I think the Philo bulb makes sense to get religion for happiness, but pacifism might be a mistake if the unit cost is bad and we are looking to whip/build infrastructure.

Going to try some of these strats out, thank you guys I learned a lot

 

[krikav]

AI contact (almost all land and all AI known.

Spoiler T181 :

Pericles has made a vassal of Gilgamesh... And seems to be getting his ass kicked by Louis.
Sulieman has reined in Capac.
Hannibal is blazing away, has cuirs and free market now, and seems to have found a colony to spread to. :|

They don't seem to be that slowed down!

On the upside, I think Louis/Pericles/Gilgamesh offers an opening. It certainly looks like I could tech to rifles/cannons and chip away at them.
Pricles is a major culture threat, has 4 religions and Sistine, so he have to be stopped anyway.

Sadly... I'm preoccupied a few days from now, so will likely not have more time to play this map. Want to continue though, would be very fun to finish a NTT game for once.
Will check this thread though!

 

[soundjata]

T107

Spoiler :

Completed the Apostolic Palace last turn but could not get elected because there is no consensus among members

Civics are Caste & OR since fogbusters are out (2 archers + 3 warriors + scout).

Hill barb city has culture. Could be a training ground (Heroic Epic)

Production close to zero so far : beeline Monotheism after CoL in order to bulb Theology and build the AP.
Need to build many Confused temples and monasteries.

We have 2 religions so priests are available. Would love to get Angkor Wat but maybe that is a luxury

Tech order after Theo : (wait for cap library) Bronze and Iron Working (was spoiled about the iron tile) then Agriculture.

Now I think we can do growth tech (AH, Sailing, Wheel) and prepare a Marble City for Sankore.

 

[soundjata]

BIC

Spoiler :

Excellent observation on Sankore + stone.
So yay, it's an improvement of the plan since we do not need to chase any marble city (sailing is expensive too)
Aachen is gonna build Sankore and Minaret like a real capitol
Next Priest is for Paper. Need Monarchy, which I should beeline right now (who needs the wheel and AH anyways)


Edit: oh sheee... Priest will bulb Philo > Aesthetics > Paper.
Angkor Wat is back in line (and Pacifism = moar great profits)

 

[georgjorge]

I think there's no spoiler involved here, as those dates will vary a lot between games:

Fiddled around with the map a bit, trying to get a religion via Oracle - Code of Laws. Failed! Oracle went to someone else in 1720BC (would have needed a few more turns for Writing), tried to get there without Oracle, but then Code of Laws went to someone else in 1560 BC. Some Immortal AIs know how to play ; )

 

[Henrik75]

I think there's no spoiler involved here, as those dates will vary a lot between games:

Fiddled around with the map a bit, trying to get a religion via Oracle - Code of Laws. Failed! Oracle went to someone else in 1720BC (would have needed a few more turns for Writing), tried to get there without Oracle, but then Code of Laws went to someone else in 1560 BC. Some Immortal AIs know how to play ; )

Great lighthouse went ding at 1640bc on my playthrough too. Fortunately 1840bc got me the oracle code of laws, but I had to maximize commerce and stay at one city to achieve it.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T186 :

T83: After acquiring Iron Working and future capital site, I grab pottery and writing. The saved chops now means my library and granary are complete in Aachen. Nuremberg settled to use 2 good resources while Aachen recovers from unhappiness while running 2 scientists. Nuremberg will also help Vienna grow cottages for periods of time

T102: Hereditary Rule adopted, Academy in. No point in waiting for the Academy to tech to Monarchy, since the intended target is a 3rd city and doesn't have the capital 8 commerce bonus anyways.

T128: A slow grind to Code of Laws - I settle Mainz now with Caste System culture expansion. Possible mistake made: Mathematics before COL (did it for the library chops) --> but probably could've gotten a bit more GP reversing that order. Also delayed COL for after Palace finished.

T141: 13 turns later, Civil Service is finally in. This tech is sponsored by pillaging the barbarian city hamlets. Taoism is still up so going to try for Philosophy next. Holding on to Scientists for double Education bulb.

T181: Lost race to Philosophy by 2 turns somewhere in between, so I started teching to Optics. 4th Great scientist is in. On this turn, I am 6 beakers away from Machinery (which would cancel a Liberalism bulb), and have obtained Alphabet/Aesthetics/Compass for a Liberalism bulb. This is enough money to full speed tech Optics + Liberalism for Astro. If the AI had obtained Liberalism before this turn, I would probably take the loss and bulb printing press instead.

T186: Liberalism --> Astronomy. Mistake made: it looks like I had enough gold to upgrade a Trireme, if I had done the math precisely.

Capital looks promising for the future:

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke You did finally get the palace up. Your future capital spot was better than mine since you grabbed rice and a pair of hills too.
Still room to settle some drafting city (granary+lighthouse+possibly barracks) along the coast.

I'm no fan at all of going so deep into unhealth though. At 7 unhealth, it's more or less equivalent of having a capital with 7 riverside tundra tiles.

Nice conservation of the forest, I did save 2 forest in the original capital too.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I think there's no spoiler involved here, as those dates will vary a lot between games:

Fiddled around with the map a bit, trying to get a religion via Oracle - Code of Laws. Failed! Oracle went to someone else in 1720BC (would have needed a few more turns for Writing), tried to get there without Oracle, but then Code of Laws went to someone else in 1560 BC. Some Immortal AIs know how to play ; )

The correct decision is not results-oriented. A random barbarian warrior can kill a fortified archer in your new expansion city at 99% odds.

I did a re-run. All early wonders gone, Pyramids gone 1560BC, Oracle and Confucianism gone even earlier, The Great Lighthouse gone even earlier.

Doesn't matter. I did another re-run. This time I purposefully left the Oracle incomplete. It was completed in 1520BC and I got 144 gold for my efforts. I went onto research monarchy at 100% research.

I still believe either the Oracle or The Great Lighthouse is correct. You get failgold. Monarchy requires the same techs. TGL only has a masonry detour. You want the lighthouse in your capital anyway. I still disagree with not building any wonders. If you don't try you can't fail but you risk falling behind.

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 211 / 1505 AD
big spoiler alert, all civs met

@krikav @CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Oxford just finished in capital as I reach astronomy. Beakers finally something half respectable.

Yikes these bastards already at rifling

I didn't do anything fancy, but i've whipped markets, forges, courthouses and universities and a couple observatories in all key cities, and completed oxford in the mediocre capital.

While not being the best commerce capital, the high production without stone or golden age allowed me to complete oxford pretty quickly with bureau bonus. Goodluck building oxford in the grassland cap is all i can say, doesn't seem like it'll happen until chemistry+caste workshops or mass whipping. Great scientist pump from great library and early academy in this place incentivize Oxford moreso. I believe in an early Oxford in a sub optimal location rather than a late one when the game is already decided. Whipping forges and universities was also key.

Regardless, I think I can still improve the play drastically after seeing other peoples perspectives. Great Library was certainly nice to bulb astro and PP, but I did not end up getting monarchy until 600AD and Civil Service until 1000AD.

I think I will try from scratch another approach: Iron Working and Monarchy bee line (after pottery), and then literature for great library afterward. Having early monarchy around 500BC (only settling 4-5 cities max until monarchy is reached) will be really strong, then teching math while chopping great library with marble settle and immediately currency CoL Philo bulb and CS after.

I think we all ended up in very similar situations and tech rates. In comparison, my research was 300BPT at 1200AD, before PP and Astro. I believe you guys made better play on early monarchy and IW bee line instead of pushing Oracle, but I think your possible mistakes are neglecting the important of infrastructure in a long game with NTT -> early markets, forges, courthouses and universities will help significantly, and having them up early means you won't have to whip away towns later on to complete them, and oxford would be ready to go.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler :

Yikes these bastards already at rifling

Spoiler :

What does Oxford research boost gain you if they can already build Cavalry? Unless you want to draft Infantry, I don't think there's a safe draft-able unit to land with this low production.

Note: my Education date was 1000 AD. I had no intention of trying for Oxford with this low production and no stone, but it's whippable with 2 hills by post date (1250 AD for sure).

Re infrastructure - 13th century costs:

Unit cost: 11
City Maintenance: 17
Civic Upkeep: 26
Inflation 17.

I don't know if Markets and Rathaus really does much here.


I'll be very interested in seeing your approach for the Iron Working --> Monarchy (500 BC) beeline. Specifically, if you find a way to settle for marble and build the Great Library before ~ the first century.

 

[drewisfat]

@krikav :

Spoiler :

A Merchant could be settled but it could also bulb Metal Casting. Could be acceptable. Of course, a Scientist would be better but the timing is difficult.

I like the GLH but still think no-wonders maintenance control could be best. Just developping the land is nice and helps fight maintenance in the same way the extra trade routes do. It also makes early survival a lot easier (I pushed to a T57 GLH but then I died ).
The late-game plateau is much higher, though. The GLH gives something like +70 commerce per turn with Astronomy (provided 7 coastal cities).

With GLh I almost always bulb currency. The reason is if you use precise trade routes, each one gives 1.25 not 1. With GLh you're at 3.75, which rounds down to 3. With just the 1 extra trade route from currency, you get to 5. So currency does as much for you (2 per coastal city) as the GLh. Even though MC is required for Astro, getting it early does nothing for you and currency will make up the ~100 difference many times over.
With respect to all approaches, GLh is stronger than Oracle here given that Charlie is IMP and isolation/NTT means there's no trade value from oracle, so GLh should outpace it pretty quickly and it's easier to secure than oracle.
Also when you have the following four conditions met:
- Seafood start
- No fishing
- IMP
- 4 available immediately
I think settler first is a no-brainer.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I still believe either the Oracle or The Great Lighthouse is correct. You get failgold. Monarchy requires the same techs. TGL only has a masonry detour. You want the lighthouse in your capital anyway. I still disagree with not building any wonders. If you don't try you can't fail but you risk falling behind.

Yes, you make a very good point about Aachen needing the Lightouse anyway. I kind of forgot about that. It's a nice way to tip the scales towards the GLH.
I agree with all the other points you made. I did try the no-wonder no-fluff today and was surprised at how anemic it was. I guess the absence of rivers will do that. Cottages first have 0 time to kick in before the GLH catches up.

With GLh I almost always bulb currency. The reason is if you use precise trade routes, each one gives 1.25 not 1. With GLh you're at 3.75, which rounds down to 3. With just the 1 extra trade route from currency, you get to 5. So currency does as much for you (2 per coastal city) as the GLh. Even though MC is required for Astro, getting it early does nothing for you and currency will make up the ~100 difference many times over.

This is a good tip. I did not know about that. It comes with BAT, right ? I have a hard time distinguishing forests from jungles with BAT, so I try to avoid it but I do know many players favour that mod.

On your other points :

I mentionned a Metal Casting bulb because it's on the way to Optics and requires neither Alpha/Maths which, from my very limited Iso experience, are better traded for than self-researched (no strong opinion here). Also, BAT or no BAT, yeah, I see.
Given neighbours, I do fully understand the point about Currency, be it bulbed or not.

Settler first ? Maybe ? It didn't occur to me. It wouldn't take you too long to make a run for it and I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.
The way I see it, the lower the size the settler is produced in Aachen, the more production is lost in the city. So, I go a very standard Worker -> Workboat and only produce the settler at size 4. Hum... just the 2 commerce from a workboat equals the added commerce from city 2.
I'm curious if you could catch up with a GLH date (T60 being latest acceptable, T65 being absolute latest acceptable) going Settler first.

 

[Hamilton321]

Spoiler :

Alright the caste merchants powered me to civil service, BPT quite mediocre for this date though, bureau should put me up to one hundred beakers. I really don't think this is the best way to play but we'll see, now I think I'll bulb currency, settle a few more cities and crawl toward optics so I can eventually get a trade mission. Overall, I'm surprised how much caste merchants speed up the tech pace. Since I'm probably not going to win this one, I might try another one where I build settler first and then go for oracle, then once I get CoL I run caste merchants earlier and then beeline pottery and get my cottage capital up sooner. Also in general I wasted quite a few beakers with poor tile management, whereas a good player would have done micro properly and been better in the execution of the strategy.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Yes, you make a very good point about Aachen needing the Lightouse anyway. I kind of forgot about that. It's a nice way to tip the scales towards the GLH.
I agree with all the other points you made. I did try the no-wonder no-fluff today and was surprised at how anemic it was. I guess the absence of rivers will do that. Cottages first have 0 time to kick in before the GLH catches up.

This is a good tip. I did not know about that. It comes with BAT, right ? I have a hard time distinguishing forests from jungles with BAT, so I try to avoid it but I do know many players favour that mod.

On your other points :

I mentionned a Metal Casting bulb because it's on the way to Optics and requires neither Alpha/Maths which, from my very limited Iso experience, are better traded for than self-researched (no strong opinion here). Also, BAT or no BAT, yeah, I see.
Given neighbours, I do fully understand the point about Currency, be it bulbed or not.

Settler first ? Maybe ? It didn't occur to me. It wouldn't take you too long to make a run for it and I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.
The way I see it, the lower the size the settler is produced in Aachen, the more production is lost in the city. So, I go a very standard Worker -> Workboat and only produce the settler at size 4. Hum... just the 2 commerce from a workboat equals the added commerce from city 2.
I'm curious if you could catch up with a GLH date (T60 being latest acceptable, T65 being absolute latest acceptable) going Settler first.

Spoiler :

Sliiiiding in on T65 with Settler first --> Great Lighthouse as inquired. Delay due to triple workboats and 5 warriors for fogbusting.

I poked around with it a bit, and it's possible to get down to ~T60 by having the second city send its first workboat back to the capital. But this leads to some weird gimmicky stuff:

1. Cutting back on earlier workboat commerce.
2. Ignoring warrior production in time to block barbarian invasion (T35 absolute on Diety --> using this as a safe measure)
3. Not having enough population in Prague to both work ocean commerce and produce warriors in time
4; Aachen grows too fast --> Settler whip into GLH is a real play but there's not enough warriors to claim adequate defense for a 3rd city.


I like full Settler first. I think my half Settler --> work boat --> size 2 --> Settler doesn't really make sense. With the spot I settled, it's immediately commerce neutral, something I had ignored.

Tech path: Fishing, Mining, Sailing, Bronze Working, Masonry, Iron Working

Approximate build path:
T17: Settler out, workboat started on 3 hammer
T20: Prague settled, begins workboat on 3 hammer
T25: Aachen workboat out, 12 turn worker started.
T28: Prague clams up, warrior production to size 2 --> finish warrior
T35: Prague warrior finishes, begins workboat for Aaachen. Warrior goes into jungle to buy time.
T37: Aachen --> worker finishes, begins lighthouse --> Great Lighthouse
T40: Prague is on fogbusting duty (5 hammers + ocean commerce duty) with a worker timed a little after Bronze Working for chopping.

T61: Iron Working in --> only 6 turns after my other date.
T64: Aachen just only grows to size 6, which is a perfect size for a 2 pop whip to build 2 Settlers to maximize GLH . 5 warriors and a scout out and about.

No 3rd city megapolis planning because of the GLH, but I'm invested in this currency bulb. Maybe this is the path to grabbing Monarchy + Great Library in time.