Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler :

Yikes these bastards already at rifling

Spoiler :

What does Oxford research boost gain you if they can already build Cavalry? Unless you want to draft Infantry, I don't think there's a safe draft-able unit to land with this low production.

Note: my Education date was 1000 AD. I had no intention of trying for Oxford with this low production and no stone, but it's whippable with 2 hills by post date (1250 AD for sure).

Re infrastructure - 13th century costs:

Unit cost: 11
City Maintenance: 17
Civic Upkeep: 26
Inflation 17.

I don't know if Markets and Rathaus really does much here.


I'll be very interested in seeing your approach for the Iron Working --> Monarchy (500 BC) beeline. Specifically, if you find a way to settle for marble and build the Great Library before ~ the first century.

 

[drewisfat]

@krikav :

Spoiler :

A Merchant could be settled but it could also bulb Metal Casting. Could be acceptable. Of course, a Scientist would be better but the timing is difficult.

I like the GLH but still think no-wonders maintenance control could be best. Just developping the land is nice and helps fight maintenance in the same way the extra trade routes do. It also makes early survival a lot easier (I pushed to a T57 GLH but then I died ).
The late-game plateau is much higher, though. The GLH gives something like +70 commerce per turn with Astronomy (provided 7 coastal cities).

With GLh I almost always bulb currency. The reason is if you use precise trade routes, each one gives 1.25 not 1. With GLh you're at 3.75, which rounds down to 3. With just the 1 extra trade route from currency, you get to 5. So currency does as much for you (2 per coastal city) as the GLh. Even though MC is required for Astro, getting it early does nothing for you and currency will make up the ~100 difference many times over.
With respect to all approaches, GLh is stronger than Oracle here given that Charlie is IMP and isolation/NTT means there's no trade value from oracle, so GLh should outpace it pretty quickly and it's easier to secure than oracle.
Also when you have the following four conditions met:
- Seafood start
- No fishing
- IMP
- 4 available immediately
I think settler first is a no-brainer.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I still believe either the Oracle or The Great Lighthouse is correct. You get failgold. Monarchy requires the same techs. TGL only has a masonry detour. You want the lighthouse in your capital anyway. I still disagree with not building any wonders. If you don't try you can't fail but you risk falling behind.

Yes, you make a very good point about Aachen needing the Lightouse anyway. I kind of forgot about that. It's a nice way to tip the scales towards the GLH.
I agree with all the other points you made. I did try the no-wonder no-fluff today and was surprised at how anemic it was. I guess the absence of rivers will do that. Cottages first have 0 time to kick in before the GLH catches up.

With GLh I almost always bulb currency. The reason is if you use precise trade routes, each one gives 1.25 not 1. With GLh you're at 3.75, which rounds down to 3. With just the 1 extra trade route from currency, you get to 5. So currency does as much for you (2 per coastal city) as the GLh. Even though MC is required for Astro, getting it early does nothing for you and currency will make up the ~100 difference many times over.

This is a good tip. I did not know about that. It comes with BAT, right ? I have a hard time distinguishing forests from jungles with BAT, so I try to avoid it but I do know many players favour that mod.

On your other points :

I mentionned a Metal Casting bulb because it's on the way to Optics and requires neither Alpha/Maths which, from my very limited Iso experience, are better traded for than self-researched (no strong opinion here). Also, BAT or no BAT, yeah, I see.
Given neighbours, I do fully understand the point about Currency, be it bulbed or not.

Settler first ? Maybe ? It didn't occur to me. It wouldn't take you too long to make a run for it and I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.
The way I see it, the lower the size the settler is produced in Aachen, the more production is lost in the city. So, I go a very standard Worker -> Workboat and only produce the settler at size 4. Hum... just the 2 commerce from a workboat equals the added commerce from city 2.
I'm curious if you could catch up with a GLH date (T60 being latest acceptable, T65 being absolute latest acceptable) going Settler first.

 

[Hamilton321]

Spoiler :

Alright the caste merchants powered me to civil service, BPT quite mediocre for this date though, bureau should put me up to one hundred beakers. I really don't think this is the best way to play but we'll see, now I think I'll bulb currency, settle a few more cities and crawl toward optics so I can eventually get a trade mission. Overall, I'm surprised how much caste merchants speed up the tech pace. Since I'm probably not going to win this one, I might try another one where I build settler first and then go for oracle, then once I get CoL I run caste merchants earlier and then beeline pottery and get my cottage capital up sooner. Also in general I wasted quite a few beakers with poor tile management, whereas a good player would have done micro properly and been better in the execution of the strategy.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Yes, you make a very good point about Aachen needing the Lightouse anyway. I kind of forgot about that. It's a nice way to tip the scales towards the GLH.
I agree with all the other points you made. I did try the no-wonder no-fluff today and was surprised at how anemic it was. I guess the absence of rivers will do that. Cottages first have 0 time to kick in before the GLH catches up.

This is a good tip. I did not know about that. It comes with BAT, right ? I have a hard time distinguishing forests from jungles with BAT, so I try to avoid it but I do know many players favour that mod.

On your other points :

I mentionned a Metal Casting bulb because it's on the way to Optics and requires neither Alpha/Maths which, from my very limited Iso experience, are better traded for than self-researched (no strong opinion here). Also, BAT or no BAT, yeah, I see.
Given neighbours, I do fully understand the point about Currency, be it bulbed or not.

Settler first ? Maybe ? It didn't occur to me. It wouldn't take you too long to make a run for it and I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.
The way I see it, the lower the size the settler is produced in Aachen, the more production is lost in the city. So, I go a very standard Worker -> Workboat and only produce the settler at size 4. Hum... just the 2 commerce from a workboat equals the added commerce from city 2.
I'm curious if you could catch up with a GLH date (T60 being latest acceptable, T65 being absolute latest acceptable) going Settler first.

Spoiler :

Sliiiiding in on T65 with Settler first --> Great Lighthouse as inquired. Delay due to triple workboats and 5 warriors for fogbusting.

I poked around with it a bit, and it's possible to get down to ~T60 by having the second city send its first workboat back to the capital. But this leads to some weird gimmicky stuff:

1. Cutting back on earlier workboat commerce.
2. Ignoring warrior production in time to block barbarian invasion (T35 absolute on Diety --> using this as a safe measure)
3. Not having enough population in Prague to both work ocean commerce and produce warriors in time
4; Aachen grows too fast --> Settler whip into GLH is a real play but there's not enough warriors to claim adequate defense for a 3rd city.


I like full Settler first. I think my half Settler --> work boat --> size 2 --> Settler doesn't really make sense. With the spot I settled, it's immediately commerce neutral, something I had ignored.

Tech path: Fishing, Mining, Sailing, Bronze Working, Masonry, Iron Working

Approximate build path:
T17: Settler out, workboat started on 3 hammer
T20: Prague settled, begins workboat on 3 hammer
T25: Aachen workboat out, 12 turn worker started.
T28: Prague clams up, warrior production to size 2 --> finish warrior
T35: Prague warrior finishes, begins workboat for Aaachen. Warrior goes into jungle to buy time.
T37: Aachen --> worker finishes, begins lighthouse --> Great Lighthouse
T40: Prague is on fogbusting duty (5 hammers + ocean commerce duty) with a worker timed a little after Bronze Working for chopping.

T61: Iron Working in --> only 6 turns after my other date.
T64: Aachen just only grows to size 6, which is a perfect size for a 2 pop whip to build 2 Settlers to maximize GLH . 5 warriors and a scout out and about.

No 3rd city megapolis planning because of the GLH, but I'm invested in this currency bulb. Maybe this is the path to grabbing Monarchy + Great Library in time.

 

[Henrik75]

When you're replaying the map a little too quickly and your settler moves out before you can stop him.

I swear I'm a deity player guys

 

[Henrik75]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Yes! I was just thinking about that now, GLH into monarchy into great library seems very possible, sailing and masonry are both required to hook up the marble for great library anyway. I'm going to try as well. You think it's better to slow build work boat at size 1 instead of worker then mine the pig and build a workboat with mined pig while growing and also having the river commerce? Lazy to math but I'm not sure which is better.

Even better, the coastal city settled ontop of marble can get immediate trade routes from GLH helping it pay for itself

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Yes! I was just thinking about that now, GLH into monarchy into great library seems very possible, sailing and masonry are both required to hook up the marble for great library anyway. I'm going to try as well. You think it's better to slow build work boat at size 1 instead of worker then mine the pig and build a workboat with mined pig while growing and also having the river commerce? Lazy to math but I'm not sure which is better.

Even better, the coastal city settled ontop of marble can get immediate trade routes from GLH helping it pay for itself

Spoiler :

Generally, yes, because building mines take time, although the fishing boat spot is probably the worst possible one in this scenario.

Basically, you're trading worker turns for commerce and a bit of food. If the worker has nothing "good" to do (i.e. OCC/no REX/waiting for Sailing+ BW/ I think the workboat first makes sense.

If Financial, doubly worth. If Fish or 1 ocean tile closer, also worth.

Caveat: maybe Settler first delayed worker so long that techs arrive in time. Hadn't thought about that. Ordering tech as Fishing/Mining/BronzeWorking/Sailing might come in time and the worker can chop into something useful and safely funnel into lighthouse. ..but usually, there's nothing for the worker to do!


The math, to size 2:

Worker first:

15 turn worker --> 15 commerce
4 turns growth during move + mine = 8 growth, 4 hammers, 4 commerce
7 more turns growth == 28 hammers, 7 commerce --> workboat in place

2 hammers, 26 commerce, 7 worker turns

Workboat first:

8 turn workboat --> 0 commerce
12 turn worker --> 22 commerce
6 turns growth --> 12 commerce ,

2 food, 34 commerce, 2 worker turns

 

[Hamilton321]

Spoiler :

This game is not going very well for me, but I thought I might as well post a 1000AD update so you can sort of see how my caste merchant play has gone. IT backfired rather miserably as I am left on five cities without even finishing fogbusting my starting island. I am starting to meet other people and did a trade mission, hence all the gold. Now I think the only play is to pump out units and settlers to fogbust the island and grow the cities finally.

 

[drewisfat]

@BornInCantaloup Here's my settler first start. I think I needed to add barb techs unless it's just IMM timing, but I stayed well defended from a barb rush that never came.

Spoiler T1-61 :

Settled capital in the very corner of the map. I don't really care about bureau capitals especially since I know it's isolation. True, that means the game will go late enough for it to matter, but it also means I'm probably rushing astro at the cost of CS, and I'm going to get happy capped hard.
This only saves 1 real turn on the first settler getting out, but it will save several turns on the workboat and opening hammers really are key if going GLh to simultaneously win the wonder race and survive barbs without crippling expansion.
Now I expect there'll be some clamor about Prague's location, but it has a lot going for it.
- +1
- Instant TRs with fishing (also true if you SIP'd tho)
- +1 A city 3 tiles away puts the initial overall empire maintenance at -2 instead of -3 if it's 4+ tiles
- Settler arrives there 1 turn faster
- WB gets there 2 turns faster
- Shares more tiles with capital, especially minmaxing the mine for IMP-settler and GLh
- Pigs tile is +1 pre-worker
- Defensible position against the first barb wave (admittedly only relevant on DEI)
- Allows a more reasonable pre-IW 4th city, which we need to fully benefit from the extra TRs.
- And most importantly of all, doesn't lose the game to panthers

Capital pumps out 2 WBs using the mine while Prague builds a worker first with pigs, then with clams. Then capital switches to growth mode while preparing a lighthouse > GLh whip. Prague takes care of the empire building.

Got GLh on t57, and by t61 I have 4 cities, 2 workers ready to build a cottage next turn and one about to come out. Edge cities each have an archer/warrior in them. Nuremberg certainly looks like a no-food-no-city spot, but the border will pop by the time I could improve the rice anyways. Need the 4th city so each city has the full 3 TRs and this spot maximizes cottages both now and late game.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, that's really good, Drew.
It feels counter-intuitive to me in many ways. Did you play this like you would blind ?
The settler-first thing isn't better, unless we get your city placements and then it ends up, yeah... Claiming two 2H city tiles really propels the build order. I'd never settle that location for Aachen but I can respect the fact that you did.
I assume you're ahead on commerce but can't tell for sure, as I go IW before Agri/The Wheel. Production wise, it's kind of similar (settlers were whipped) but, I think, ahead.

lulz looking at your screenshot, did you just kill a clam ? It's no big deal but kinda funny.
Looking some more, the 4 cities set up is really cramped. Upside is maintenance is really low so you have a lot of research power. Downside, long term. I don't know how to weight that.

You made a claim and you sure came through. wp !

edit : I realized while sleeping that you gave away the pigs settling Aachen the way you did.
Wouldn't Prague be better suited to complete the GLH, then ? Same forests, better tiles.

re-edit :
Here, I give you a screen of mine from wednesday :

Spoiler :

GLH T58 (need settler whip to gain a turn and I don't like it - Aachen is the worker pump for the next 20 turns).
1 worker only. No Achery, Wheel, Agriculture (I assume you have that ?), Pottery. Aachen is at health cap

The double 2H city tiles really carries.

 

[Henrik75]

Not gonna lie, I have replayed the map like 20 times (mainly first 75 turns) and random nonsense triggering me each time, think I might just stick to original oracle attempt

Spoiler :

Want to see some ridiculous wonder dates? these imm dates beat 90% of deity game dates I'm pretty sure.

Anyway for your entertainment I restarted a lot of times due to:
- Archer killing woodsman 2 warrior fortified in jungle hill at 4%
- Another archer killing 2 warriors in forest and still being healthy and promoting twice
- Jungle growing in 2nd city making it unhealthy at size 3 instead of size 4
- Great lighthouse going at 1600, 1640, and 1720bc
- Panther killing my scout with woodsman 1 promotion, bs
- Panther killing a warrior
- Panther sniping my settler when i went settler first
- Panther attacking me IRL (cat meowing too loud in the background)
- me making stupid mistakes tilting myself
- best attempt, but great library was built at 200bc in a far away land (i got it at 200ad on first attempt) bruh -_-
- 2 barb axes fking me up and one killing my forested axe
- barb spears bullying me before i get iron working
- more jungle growing giving unhealthiness
- forgetting to revolt at correct time or change production queues because im tilted with the above

ya. it's been a disaster the last 2 days. I think time to take a vacation on aonther map.

 

[soundjata]

I am a big S

 

[drewisfat]

@BornInCantaloup the hill tiles can be gazed t0, if anything map knowledge would deter the plan because of dead clams. But long-term there's another argument to be made for my layout, grabbing 2 interior grassland tiles that otherwise you couldn't with coastal cities.
Aachen needs a lighthouse, while Vienna doesn't want one so I never considered putting GLh anywhere else.
I'll grant if you SIP settler first might not be superior, due to the awkward layout. The rightward clams are 1 tile too far right, the NW clams are 1 tile too far left for an efficient early 2nd city.
But yeah settling the hills felt natural, wasn't trying to pull a fast one. Getting a good GLh time, not dying to barbs and still expanding is a lot to ask for without IND and with a slow workboat start. Would only consider GLh on deity with those hill settles, which also give added barb defense.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Interesting. You're right about the T0 situation.
Also right that with SIP, the 2nd city doesn't bring much to the table.
I understand why you did what you did and agree it turns out very well. I'd be very reluctant to forego the initial capital's location and settle in the corner. But, mostly, I didn't consider going settler first in the first place. Maybe I'd have done it differently if I had had this option in mind. I don't think it is obvious but you made a good argument for it in your first post.

re: GLH location. I realized you probably needed the double food in Aachen anyway, so Prague isn't really a consideration.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Following from my basic strategy at T58 (1680 BC),

Spoiler :

Fishing, mining, bronze working. I think the first 35 turns should be the same for everyone.

Then I went polytheism, priesthood, writing. Oracle for code of laws. With no happiness resources, no creative, and no charismatic, I wanted a religion. Code of laws also enabled caste system, which I like better than slavery in weak isolation starts.

this is my T172 (1120 AD):

Spoiler :

No map spoilers! One of my worst astronomy dates. More surprising is nobody met us yet.

Two thousand five hundred years of written history.
BC-1680 code of laws
BC-1360 the wheel
BC-1000 pottery (settled great scientist)
BC-0375 agriculture
AD-0350 alphabet
AD-0425 sailing
AD-0660 compass
AD-0840 metal casting
AD-1050 machinery
AD-1100 mathematics (lightbulbed optics)
AD-1120 masonry

Future plans: calendar, astronomy, monotheism. Double-switch into slavery and organised religion.

If the game lasts very late: settle a city 2N of the horse. Slow-build the national park in 50 turns.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

This is a very interesting location for Vienna, Sylvanllewelyn ! Seems good and very coherent with the early plan.

I am a big S

Swede, Sweatheart, Softie, Smart, Supernatural ?
Or were you disappointed with the APPlan ?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The game is not close to finished.

Techs: civil service, meditation, philosophy, paper, education, economics, nationalism, constitution, corporations.

Spoiler :

Techs that I did --not-- get. Oh dear.

T178 (1120AD) to T258 (1740AD). Contains map information.

Spoiler :

Later I learn that they're located next to the Ottomans. Here, have some good luck ponies.

Even weaker than myself. Somehow not a vassal to anyone. Possesses The Great Lighthouse. Tried to breakout before but it didn't work out. Maybe it's because they had no iron or copper.

High upkeep civics are expensive. I am also going to switch to vassalage later.

The Ottomans never fought any wars yet. All land and cities just from peaceful expansion. Woe to those on the receiving end!

I just want Uruk for TGL and for a general landing spot towards the mainland. I need Sumeria to keep the other cities to fight off French culture.

In 1410AD, Carthage released their cities and formed a colony. Since the game is no tech trading, the colony did not tech at the same rate as the master. Carthage also declared war on Greece last turn. The war was fought with rifles so getting involved was dangerous but I had to do something.

Carthage just got assembly line so I needed an exit strategy before their power rating spikes . The AI asks for cities by default but can also accept gold.

The rathaus allowed me to take any unhabited land that I wanted but that's all gone. If, at any moment, the Ottomans decide to conquer the world, nobody can stop them. Yes, I spread the Confucian belief to (former) Spain earlier. My original intention was to ask Spain to adopt Confucianism so that I can have a friendly ally after I take out Carthage. It was unfortunate that Carthage decided to attack Greece well before the plan was ready.

Guns, Germs, and Steel. It would be helpful if someone built the United Nations so I can enter those civics.

For the observent: I stole aesthetics from my vassal. Pathetic I know.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The turn before the tech leader declared war on me and the game was lost shortly after. One picture.

Spoiler :

The key problem was that the Ottomans were "pleased" with everyone the whole time. Every time I attack a player, I got "-1 you declared war on a friend" which accumulated. No tech trading meant I had limited diplomatic options.

Discussion for @konata_LS
I believe I lost because my micromanagement was not good enough. I still believe my overall strategy was sound.

Spoiler :

- Oracle or Great Lighthouse.
- Three Great Scientists. The 2nd for optics, the 3rd and 4th for astronomy. The 1st is probably not a GS. Settle it as a super specialist.
- After astronomy, go down the military-science path and take land. More units and more cities is better than infrastructure. Rathaus + TGL was doing ridiculous work.
- My eventual plan was ICBMs, galleons, and rifles. I could have done it if I wasn't attacked. The Ottomans had mechanised infantry but otherwise the tech rate wasn't impressive.

I don't think religious or cultural were options. If we committed to building the AP, then our normal development would have been delayed even more, and then our optics date will be slower than a normal astronomy date, by which point everyone is already in free religion. With cultural, you have to get astronomy and then wait for religions to spread, which is too late. NTT makes diplomatic difficult, even the backdoor (farmville) variety.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You had the best Astro date provided in this thread, Sylvanllewelyn.
Granted, other people didn't prioritize it (and I don't understand why - their fault). I gather you came short on science. Still, I would think your trial is the best of them all.
NTT...Is like an extra difficulty level. If we take so long to take off, then maybe investing into an espionnage economy (mostly passive) can do a lot of good.

I'm not sure about your gpp plan but I kinda trust you on that matter, too. I didn't play that far.