Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[konata_LS]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

Thanks for the strategy suggestion. Yes, trebs and galleons might work well at Monarch. Though my treb attack almost never succeeds, even my target and I are in the same landmass . I think I need to improve my empire management and wartime build-up .

I find it difficult most of the time under NTT to acquire Astro and then make it in time to Liberalism for something else - grabbing Liberalism is in part under intention of AI denial.

Another usefulness fof Lib is the Communism and State Property. In the standard games when the tech trade is allowed, people often can get Lib and SMethods trough trade, as both techs unlock no military units or buildings. In NTT games, it's impossible to get Lib through trade. Since we have to self-tech Lib sooner or later, trying to win the lib race is not a bad idea.

@Gwaja
Thanks to Henrik as well. Both isolation and NTT are Henrik's idea. He also asked to avoid choosing FIN leaders for the human player .

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Jungle is horrible. Not sure if you remember your first stream: even with a good leader that you're quite used to play, your empire were slowed down by the jungle. If there were gems or dyes under jungle, the high tile and +1 - would probably pay off the numerous worker turns to clean jungle. But a bare 2 grass tile can rarely pay off these worker turns.

I wonder if the two Indian leaders would probably deal better than Charly with such a jungle island...? Unlike normal workers, Indian UU can move in the jungle and start cleaning on the same turn. Cleaning jungle one turn earlier means we can cottage one turn earlier, or farming it to make cities grow one turn faster. Besides, both Indians leaders are SPI. They can temporarily adopt Serfdom for cutting jungle, then switch back to slavery to whip infrastructure.

@Nick723
MoM is interesting approach. To get early Calendar, the tech path would be Writing-Maths-Sailing-Calendar-Masonry..? In this case, both Monarchy and IW would be delayed though.

 

[crashmon]

Will you be putting this on you-tube @Henrik75 ?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

If you're interested, here's the Monarchy save

Thank you, it interests me indeed. I looked at it.
It led me to reconsider my tech path, that and the discussion over wonders + Academy. I used to max out on the research bonuses (Agri before Pottery) but now think it's wrong.
Even going for the GLH (t57), setting up the earliest Library is a big stake. So, I am now going The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing after the GLH is done. The Library completes T75 (research resumes) and the first GP can be produced out of Aachen T82 (50% Merchant/Scientist). The GP outcome is RNG dependent but, at least, the bulk of the GM weight is taken out for future GPs.
Notable skips are thus : Agriculture, Iron Working and Animal Husbandry. The first 3 cities can work about 10 cottage tiles and this leads me to think that Pottery should be researched before Iron.
Now, I'm not entirely confident this is right but, the way I am doing this is to beeline Monarchy after Writing, leaving the skipped techs skipped.
This also leads me to revise my dotmap. With 2 northern grabs, we can still settle 5 cities and barely touch the jungle. One of the reasons I want Monarchy that early in the tech path is because it unlocks whipping for infrastructure. Without forests and HR, it's too hard to set up Granaries + Lighthouses + Libraries.

The trouble I'm running into, as often when replaying and trying to refine, is that I skimp too much on barb defence. The barb rush seems to happen around T60. I think enough warriors should be produced to secure the island in its aftermath, circa T70. Failing to do that, barb metal units will start to appear.
I'll try to post some pictures at a later time ; I've some points that are hard locked (GLH) but will need to do some replaying the follow-up, for security.

edit : I have this 525 BC pic from last tuesday where I secured the island :

Spoiler :

No AH, no Monarchy. Yes Agri (before Pottery), yes Iron (after Pottery). 5 workers.
It is behind you in tech and kinda similar in land development (you're ahead). I wasn't happy with the dotmap, however, nor the tech path.
I think this Vienne is a mistake. Augsburg also is a mistake (should share the food from capital).
I agree with your dotmap and Mainz should be 1S. If it gets a border pop, all non-jungled riverside tiles can be claimed when we settle your megalopolis. Some cities can be sacrificed but all cities should at least have access to 1 shared food. The way I planned this (and the reason I wasn't happy with it) I have two 0-food cities. I don't mind stagnating on cottages at happy cap but the shared food is essential to get there.
Finally, this tech path has no chance at all at an Academy. The Library simply comes way too late.

NB : I haven't taken the hint from Drew and still SIP and start on Worker-> Workboat

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Thank you, it interests me indeed. I looked at it.
It led me to reconsider my tech path, that and the discussion over wonders + Academy. I used to max out on the research bonuses (Agri before Pottery) but now think it's wrong.
Even going for the GLH (t57), setting up the earliest Library is a big stake. So, I am now going The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing after the GLH is done. The Library completes T75 (research resumes) and the first GP can be produced out of Aachen T82 (50% Merchant/Scientist). The GP outcome is RNG dependent but, at least, the bulk of the GM weight is taken out for future GPs.

What is your plan if it turns out to be a Great Merchant? The only viable candidate I have experimented with for being failsafe against 1st Great Prophet/Merchant is to oracle Aesthetics.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

MC bulb if the 1st GP is a Merchant. I think it gains more turns than settling. It's quite poor though, since it doesn't bring any immediate benefits. (The Academy in Nuremberg does take time to pay off, too, right ? I suspect its first benefit is to pop borders... )
And it cleans Aachen's GP pool. The next guy can be born at 75% scientist. The "plan" is to research CoL to have a tech that can make up for the lost gpp. Just pump more. In the grand scheme of things, the first GP will have been wasted. This is a big prop towards your Academy Rush approach, that and getting to the key techs earlier. As it happens, a proper tech path gets there before the GLH does.

I like Oracle -> Aesthetics a lot on regular maps (given marble and other conditions) but not on Iso and certainly not here. I agree with Nick723 and don't think Aest has anything to do with our tech path.

 

[Henrik75]

bump
don't think this has been beaten yet? would love to see if anyone can do it! this map continues to haunt me to this day

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I don't think map knowledge counts as beating but still interesting map. Anyway I would espionage.

 

[Fippy]

I believe with T74 Pyras (which i'd consider fairly safe still on Imm..not so much on deity ) now would be just grinding thru some jungle (barbs) for spots.
The 2 biggest problems (happy & beakers) should be solved long-term.
2 Archers cos barbs are certainly annoying here. Aachen could split pigs with another city (jungle rice) later, 2 lighthouse clams should be plenty .

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

don't think this has been beaten yet?

translation: CPK hasn't finished his game yet

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

translation: CPK hasn't finished his game yet

LOL! Thanks for the vote of confidence.

As mentioned in my previous posts, my tests of tradeoff between "rushing" Astronomy by 1010 AD vs gimmick grabbing the tech via Liberalism around 1260 AD on Immortal made me not wish to continue the map. That late of an interaction with the rest of the map would make the win conditional on off-map behavior. Maybe liberalism goes earlier? Maybe it goes later. Maybe someone gets vassaled, maybe some ruins the conqueror's day. Maybe we gamble on a wonder being available late.

In short, I *think* I could play out one of these saves to a win. However, I did not come up with anything last year that would guarantee a win without some element of game-changing luck.

 

[Henrik75]

1260ad lib is pretty damn late, usually it goes between 900-1100ad, so yeah I guess it just comes down to grinding RNG. Similarly you can reroll until you get away with a 1ad great library

Double bulb astronomy+ medieval rush worth it at all?

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

1260ad lib is pretty damn late, usually it goes between 900-1100ad, so yeah I guess it just comes down to grinding RNG. Similarly you can reroll until you get away with a 1ad great library

Double bulb astronomy+ medieval rush worth it at all?

Well with the pre-Astronomy happiness cap, the production is going to be hard to come by. My default plan for either of the above save would've been to go with @sylvanllewelyn 's espionage plan + drafting.

I still think the proof of victory would be shown by shaving down the Astronomy via double bulb date to around 6-700 AD, and maybe Astronomy via liberalism to 1000 AD. There are always ways to wager some luck after.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

That's basically the whole thread: how to shave down the Astronomy date? @Fippy 's Pyramids approach is interesting. I am just upset that Colossus is not possible.

 

[gamerbloke]

Hi all, long time lurker first time poster here.

I remember playing around with this save last year, I am a bit of a fan of tricky starts and this one certainly counts!

I have added my 1150 Astro save (Buffy mod) from the second time I had a run at it, which I think is a strong and potentially winning position ( didn't play it out much further I am pretty bad at finishing games...)

The first time I think was an early Optics bulb to meet AI and start getting some tech discounts but with 5 or so cities and the original capital it felt severely undeveloped and too far behind

Second time I thought it might be fun to try leverage what advantages were available with the leader.

So went for the early Oracle, and early GP which I settled ( was lucky to get a scientist but prophet would have been ok ). Moved the capital and used OR to get Rathouses up in most cities. Expanded to 8 cities with the cheaper settlers but kept unit costs as low as possible using only the religion plus HR for happy, staying at 6 pop except for capital. Went into caste fairly early on to avoid needing libraries and gather enuff GP for Astro bulb after settle / academy.

Starting city had nice production to get some swords out and take barb city, up to 9 at time of save, 2 settlers building for when Astro is in, the Oracle city has been running a priest for a long time and this is not so much for the shrine as the discount for tech stealing When I played it last time I went to Nationalism next for the espionage bonus in all cities but now I think about it just going for Engineering and cheap protective castles for the trade route + bonus would be better, can steal Nationalism and revolt then Work towards Rifling with steals while growing pop and then draft Protective army and crush

Anyway here is the situation 1 turn before Astro is in, I hope it proves valuable !

Spoiler 1150 AD :

 

[sucksatciv]

I can't believe people are still playing this impossible map, I tried it like three times a year ago and gave up because of how awful it was

 

[sampsa]

I can't believe people are still playing this impossible map, I tried it like three times a year ago and gave up because of how awful it was

But it's immortal! Can it really be harder than an average deity isolation?

 

[Henrik75]

Yes, yes it can hahahaha.

Spoiler :

I think the fact it's no tech trade + TERRIBLE land makes it super hard forcing you to build up a trash capital or slowly move and build up a new jungle choked capital, with very minimal resources compared to standard isolation maps.
Plus the rivals are very strong with strong starts & peace vassalling happens almost every time.
Definitely harder than a normal deity isolation with tech trading on; where you can just bulb astro 500ad and trade your way from classical to renaissence era.

as for this map, I think you can get the astro bulb earlier down to 1000AD if you are going that route

 

[AcaMetis]

Out of curiosity, how does Immortal+NTT Iso compare with the (not actually) "impossible" Charly map I rolled and posted a while back in that prepare to die topic?

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

But also, the endgame is so much easier on immortal. NTT means they are much slower too, so the dates should be very different than deity w/ TT. Of course, I haven't even tried this game and sadly have no time now.

 

[Fippy]

Out of curiosity, how does Immortal+NTT Iso compare with the (not actually) "impossible" Charly map I rolled and posted a while back in that prepare to die topic?

NTT usually makes Iso easier not harder (all imo).
Really tuff deity games are much harder than this one cos as Sampsa wrote..Immortal
While it's by no means decent land overall, we have triple capital + forests + some river tiles + another clams spot close.
I have seen worse and you basically just need Pyras or some other valid strategy for maps with some good tiles, it being Imm allows working on them for 35t or so without being punished.