Chavez redistributing the sun to the poor

Sorry, your interpretation is not a source. I ask again.

Source?
It is not my interpretation, it is my translation. Use a web translator, or whatever you may know of spanish as that would be enough to understand the basics.

Are you just beign annoying?
Chávez approval among the overal population is at 45%, as per my previous post. It is widely known that his support base is the poor masses of Venezuela, where it is as high as 75%. How much do you think is his approval among the top 12%? Something like 5%, I would guess. It is certainly much much lower than 45%, I hope you at least grasp that.
 
Who said they supported the coup? They actually didn't. They just didn't outright condemn the coup. Boo-hoo.

They broadcasted propaganda for the coup and tried, until the end, to hide the fact that the coup met with popular opposition.

I, OTOH, did support the coup against him, and even think they should have killed him, because that's what a tyrant who shuts down the opposition deserves.

Do you who did attempt a coup? Your hero Hugo Chávez, that's who. How about him now? A real paladin of justice and democracy, huh?

A "tyrant" who consistently won every election he run for, who never violated the constitution of the country (he changed it, but follower the legal procedures to do so)... you would have him overthrown and murdered, then what? Have the army and police massacre all those who supported him? Guess what, Carmona tried that and failed - the army wouldn't obey the self-proclaimed "president" when he ordered the suppression of the pro-Chavez uprisings in Caracas.

That "liberator" Carmona whom you are so fond lasted a few hours as self-proclaimed president. And what did he do? Ordered the dissolution of the elected National Assembly and the Supreme Court, tried to have the legitimate president murdered, and ordered the police and the army to crush the rebellion against his coup. That's your paladin of justice and democracy, is he? :rolleyes:
 
If it matters, Chávez himself tried to make a coup while he was in the military.

From Wiki:

A career military officer, Chávez founded the left-wing Fifth Republic Movement after orchestrating a failed 1992 coup d'état against former President Carlos Andrés Pérez.

Chávez's complaining of the newspaper supporting a coup against him seems like sissy whiny hypocritical crybaby crap. But oh well.

And for any of you proChávez freaks, if you think Wiki's lying, then change it! You too can change reality!
 
If it matters, Chávez himself tried to make a coup while he was in the military.

Yes, and it failed, and he was arrested for it, and released a few years later. So what? When he did reach the presidency he was elected, the fact that he tried a coup years before doesn't make his election any less democratic.

Chávez's complaining of the newspaper supporting a coup against him seems like sissy whiny hypocritical crybaby crap. But oh well.

It's a war over the control of TV channels, not newspapers. He waited a few years and when the channel's license came up for renewal refused it. I may not approve his actions, but refusing that license was probably a smart move in the context of the propaganda war being fought in Venezuela. And it was legal, so I won't buy the claim guy is a tyrant because of that episode. He may very well end as a tyrant, but so far he's not one.
 
So as long as he plays by the rule to shut down opposition its not a tyrannical move? But if in the end hes still a tyrant how did he get there and at what exact point did his actions go from non-tyrannical to tyrannical?
 
It's a war over the control of TV channels, not newspapers. He waited a few years and when the channel's license came up for renewal refused it. I may not approve his actions, but refusing that license was probably a smart move in the context of the propaganda war being fought in Venezuela. And it was legal, so I won't buy the claim guy is a tyrant because of that episode. He may very well end as a tyrant, but so far he's not one.

Sorry, I got the wrong media.
 
So what your saying is its ok as long as only group is doing all the killing but when the others fight back its bad. I see now.

The massacres you're referring to occurred long before the invasion. The violence had stopped. That doesn't make it okay. But, relatively speaking, there is a lot more death in Iraq since the invasion than there was death in the late 90s. Those numbers indicate that Saddam's long past genocide does not justify creating a new mess with an invasion. (And the genocide wasn't the justification. They had to try to justify the invasion with the WMD argument.)

What were the chances of things improving under Saddam? Exactly.

I'd argue that the chances were decent. And maybe even pretty good if we were more creative than "LET'S GO KILL THE BAD GUYS". (Not to drag this off topic, but there's lots of reasons to believe there were other ways to make this work besides an invasion. A good air force is good at keeping dictators in check. We sped the toppling of soviet union with espionage and information warfare, rather than violence. The middle class, at one point under Saddam's rule, was quite large -- which is often the fertile soil for democracy.) A little creativity, and we could have done more for Iraq, and lost much less in terms of money, soldiers, and respect.

The real point: there are no anti-americans on this site. Nobody who genuinely likes Saddam. Nobody who will back the most brutal son of a ***** just for having a few snappy criticisms about the USA. There are only pragmatists who believe America is headed down a bad path, and hope to make it right.
 
Show me someone who genuinely hates America. You can find people who hate Bush. You can even find people who have hated Reagan, maybe even Clinton -- for all of their foreign misadventures. But you won't find anybody on this site who, say, celebrated on 9/11.
 
I ask again.

Rather than ask, why not find a quote of someone who has said that they hate america, or loved saddam? I'm not saying its not there, but I'd like to see it...
 
I love Saddam.

I kid. How in the world did a thread about daylight savings in Venezuela turn into a Saddam thread, anyway? Getting back to the story at hand, why in the heck a 1/2 hour anyway? I know a few in Asia do that, but I thought that weirdness was restricted to that continent. If we MUST dick with time, do it in 1-hour increments.
 
Getting back to the story at hand, why in the heck a 1/2 hour anyway? I know a few in Asia do that, but I thought that weirdness was restricted to that continent. If we MUST dick with time, do it in 1-hour increments.
He wants to feel special. :)
 
Their changing it back to what it was before it was changed in 60s, If I correctly remember. There were some studies that it might have reduced productivity.
 
I love Saddam.

I kid. How in the world did a thread about daylight savings in Venezuela turn into a Saddam thread, anyway? Getting back to the story at hand, why in the heck a 1/2 hour anyway? I know a few in Asia do that, but I thought that weirdness was restricted to that continent. If we MUST dick with time, do it in 1-hour increments.

The Canadians do it too. But then again it is Canada sooooo.......
 
Rather than ask, why not find a quote of someone who has said that they hate america, or loved saddam? I'm not saying its not there, but I'd like to see it...

Yeah, I'd like to see it too.
 
They broadcasted propaganda for the coup and tried, until the end, to hide the fact that the coup met with popular opposition.
So a TV station is forced to broadcast rallies? Otherwise they get the boot? Is that your notion of democracy?

I think TV stations are free to endorse whatever politics they want, as long as they do not endorse violence, what RCTV never did.

A "tyrant" who consistently won every election he run for, who never violated the constitution of the country (he changed it, but follower the legal procedures to do so)... you would have him overthrown and murdered, then what? Have the army and police massacre all those who supported him? Guess what, Carmona tried that and failed - the army wouldn't obey the self-proclaimed "president" when he ordered the suppression of the pro-Chavez uprisings in Caracas.
Actually there were also anti-Chávez rallies after the coup... and it wasn't the army who rebelled, but rather the chavist officers, who are a majority among the junior officers.

That "liberator" Carmona whom you are so fond lasted a few hours as self-proclaimed president. And what did he do? Ordered the dissolution of the elected National Assembly and the Supreme Court, tried to have the legitimate president murdered, and ordered the police and the army to crush the rebellion against his coup. That's your paladin of justice and democracy, is he? :rolleyes:
I don't think Carmona ordered the dissolution of the Supreme Court (and he didn't dissolve Congress either, he just shut it down). Furthermore, what good is the venezuelan Congress when 100% (yes, 100%) of the members belong to Chávez base? That's like the Congress of North Korea.

And Carmona did not try to murder Chávez, what was a shame. Chávez is only concerned with himself, therefore he has no successors and he is the only face of his movement (typical sign of a bad leader). If he is dead, so is his party.

For me, a tyrant is someone who arms militias that have shot at the opposition, who shuts down media outlets that opposed him, who wants to rule for the extent of his life, who throws the Constitution in the garbage can and write a brand new one (very easy to do that "legally" if you controll 100% of the Congress).

So yes, death to Chávez. And no, I am not found of Carmona. He is a weak man.
 
It seems any thread about Venezuela ends with this discussion... I'll abstain from repeating myself in future threads, but I'll answer here one last time.

So a TV station is forced to broadcast rallies? Otherwise they get the boot? Is that your notion of democracy?

I think TV stations are free to endorse whatever politics they want, as long as they do not endorse violence, what RCTV never did.

A look back to the news published in the days before and after the April 11 coup will present a different scenario. Lets just use the short news from the BBC archives about the situation:
March 21st, 2002: the CTV has already set in motion the creation of a crisis situation, that would later be used as a justification to overthrow the government.
April 9th, 2002: a "general strike" where business leaders order their employees not to go to work. Original, no doubt.
April 12th, 2002: Chavez ousted, written off by the Venezuela's media...
April 12th, 2002: the media takes care of justifying the coup...
April 15th, 2002: the coup failed, suddenly a series of journalists seem to have forgotten what they wrote just 3 days earlier.

The news about the shootings were manipulated, as the release of videos after the days of the coup showed. But they were the main propaganda piece used to justify the coup.

Actually there were also anti-Chávez rallies after the coup... and it wasn't the army who rebelled, but rather the chavist officers, who are a majority among the junior officers.

Well, I guess Carmona and his co-conspirators found out that an army is more than just generals, then.

I don't think Carmona ordered the dissolution of the Supreme Court (and he didn't dissolve Congress either, he just shut it down). Furthermore, what good is the venezuelan Congress when 100% (yes, 100%) of the members belong to Chávez base? That's like the Congress of North Korea.

He didn't last long enough to carry it out, but he did order it. Here's the decree he had time to announce. Notice these points:

Artículo 3°: Se suspende de sus cargos a los diputados principales y suplentes a la Asamblea Nacional.

Se convoca la celebración de elecciones legislativas nacionales a más tardar para el mes de diciembre de 2002 para elegir a los miembros del Poder Legislativo Nacional, el cual tendrá facultades constituyentes para la reforma general de la Constitución de 1999.

Translation: "suspension until new elections", which obviously equals dissolution.

Artículo 7°: El Presidente de la República en Consejo de Ministros podrá renovar y designar transitoriamente a los titulares de los poderes públicos, nacionales, estadales y municipales para asegurar la institucionalidad democrática y el adecuado funcionamiento del Estado de Derecho; así como a los representantes de Venezuela ante los parlamentos Andino y Latinoamericano.

Translation: all elected officers can be replaced by people appointed by the (self-appointed) president.

Artículo 8°: Se decreta la reorganización de los poderes públicos a los efectos de recuperar su autonomía e independencia y asegurar una transición pacífica y democrática, a cuyo efecto se destituyen de sus cargos ilegítimamente ocupados al presidente y demás magistrados del Tribunal Supremo de Justicia, así como al Fiscal General de la República, al Contralor General de la República, al Defensor del Pueblo y a los miembros del Consejo Nacional Electoral.

El Presidente de la República en Consejo de Ministros previa consulta con el Consejo Consultivo designará a la brevedad posible a los ciudadanos que ejercerán transitoriamente esos poderes públicos.

Translation: the self-appointed president removes all members of the Supreme Court and the other judicial offices, and all members of the Electoral Council, and will appoint his own people for those jobs.

As for comparing the National Assembly of Venezuela with a "congress of North Korea", are there free elections in North Korea? No, I don't think so...
But we now know just how much you respect democracy: its good so long as the people vote for the candidates you like. Kind of like... the "Democratic" People's Republic of Korea?

And Carmona did not try to murder Chávez, what was a shame. Chávez is only concerned with himself, therefore he has no successors and he is the only face of his movement (typical sign of a bad leader). If he is dead, so is his party.

Right, that was why his movement immediately collapsed when he was sequestered in 2002. Oh, wait...

For me, a tyrant is someone who arms militias that have shot at the opposition, who shuts down media outlets that opposed him, who wants to rule for the extent of his life, who throws the Constitution in the garbage can and write a brand new one (very easy to do that "legally" if you controll 100% of the Congress).

So yes, death to Chávez. And no, I am not found of Carmona. He is a weak man.

Those media outlets were not shut down even after the coup. The license of one television network was not renewed when it came up for revision. Not quite the same thing.

As for rule for life and rewriting the constitution, it doesn't look good, I'll grant you that, But it has been both legal and democratic, so far.
You, on the other hand, would "defend democracy" by overthrowing the legitimately elected president and government, and replacing it with a murderous dictator (Carmona doesn't qualify for the job because he wasn't murderous enough, I see).
Frankly, I'd take Chavez democracy over yours any day.
 
It's funny, if President Bush abolished term limits, restricted opposition media outlets for any reason, etc, etc the entire world would scream "dictator!" and "tyrant!" But in Latin America they scream "liberator!"
 
Rather than ask, why not find a quote of someone who has said that they hate america, or loved saddam? I'm not saying its not there, but I'd like to see it...

I swear we as a nation are the biggest hypocrites to ever exist.
We are a nation of irrational hippocrites
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5882524&postcount=98

The United States operates under the guise of moral superiority but really are just a bunch of self serving dingbats with memory problems.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5881450&postcount=55

Pretty hateful stuff. And that's just from one thread, on one day. I see dozens of comments like this every week. I've started to compile a file. Ask me again in a couple weeks and I'll give you dozens of examples.
 
Back
Top Bottom