Cheater Thread at CIV2 PBEM Forum

[sas]

Just wanted to voice my support for the so called cheaters list. Cheating is a big problem in the PBEM games. I have played in numerous games where cheating have been discovered, and it ruins the game.

It's not much fun spending countless hours on a game, only to get the game ruined by a cheater. A blacklist will enable people to deny known cheaters access to theyre game, and in effect reduce the chance for ruining the game.

 

[germanos]

Finally a place where I can vote NO to the blacklist.

So far I have yet to see the first game where people decide to kick the cheater out of the game!
In many if not all, the cheater is turned the other cheek, and allowed to continue.

Only very recently I have seen the first player to be banned from the game he was playing in, and awkwardly enough, this has been the case since the cheater started whining about people calling him bad names, and he just wondered why he received such a 'hard' judgement while all others before him could continue almost unscathed.

So, when the sole effect of the blacklist is to have the people permanently 'on file publicly', even when they repented, but yet the offenders don't get any 'punishment' when caught red-handed, I feel the imposed 'brandmark' is way to much.

It is better to slap a thief on the hand and take away what he has stolen, then let him keep it and tattoo 'THIEF' on his forehead.


If we really want to end the continous cheating (I have had a few games ruined because of it too), I do support the earlier mentioned proposal on allowing discussions on cheating (what is it? From the discussions on Apolyton it is clear not everybody has the same standards!) so 'house-rules' can be established, or some 'codes' like the 'rah-rules' in MP on Apolyton can be made comon knowledge.

The blacklist is not going to help ending it.

 

[sas]

Germanos, it will not stop cheating but it will make people think twice before cheating. After all, you will be putting your reputation on the plate. And in some games, had we know the player was a known cheater we wouldnt have to go through the agony of trying to find a new player and repair the damage done.

A blacklist wont stop cheating, but it sure will make people think twice before cheating.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ
No, it was a copy of an off-site blacklist

I'm looking at it in staff as I write, it IS a blacklist.

Well then maybe we're talking about two different things; a couple of weeks ago I created a thread called 'Blacklist of PBEM Cheaters', and I posted a LINK to the Apolyton list, I didn't copy its contents here. Sure, in effect it's the same thing if that's what you mean, but I was just making the point that Franklyn's suggestion had already been tried.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by germanos
So far I have yet to see the first game where people decide to kick the cheater out of the game!

Look harder, I can name a dozen or more games where the cheater was kicked out if you want me to waste half an hour and give you links to them.

Originally posted by germanos
Only very recently I have seen the first player to be banned from the game he was playing in, and awkwardly enough, this has been the case since the cheater started whining about people calling him bad names, and he just wondered why he received such a 'hard' judgement while all others before him could continue almost unscathed.

Again, this judgement is incorrect because MANY past cheaters have been kicked out even after asking to stay.

Originally posted by germanos
So, when the sole effect of the blacklist is to have the people permanently 'on file publicly', even when they repented, but yet the offenders don't get any 'punishment' when caught red-handed, I feel the imposed 'brandmark' is way to much.

But the very people that you say got off scot-free would be on the list, so... I don't see your point.

Originally posted by germanos
If we really want to end the continous cheating (I have had a few games ruined because of it too), I do support the earlier mentioned proposal on allowing discussions on cheating (what is it? From the discussions on Apolyton it is clear not everybody has the same standards!) so 'house-rules' can be established, or some 'codes' like the 'rah-rules' in MP on Apolyton can be made comon knowledge.

People who are cheating KNOW they are cheating. Listing what cheats are won't prevent it at all, and if anything it'll cause a net increase by creating a how-to guide. We went over that a looooong time ago.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Well then maybe we're talking about two different things; a couple of weeks ago I created a thread called 'Blacklist of PBEM Cheaters', and I posted a LINK to the Apolyton list, I didn't copy its contents here. Sure, in effect it's the same thing if that's what you mean, but I was just making the point that Franklyn's suggestion had already been tried.

Creating a thread to link to a thread.

Why don't you send the URL to game starters instead

 

[Darius]

Because it's too much of a nuisance, and there's little reason for the thread to be deleted in the first place.

 

[germanos]

Originally posted by sas
Germanos, it will not stop cheating but it will make people think twice before cheating. After all, you will be putting your reputation on the plate. And in some games, had we know the player was a known cheater we wouldnt have to go through the agony of trying to find a new player and repair the damage done.

A blacklist wont stop cheating, but it sure will make people think twice before cheating.

Sas, as I have said, many times the players are allowed to continue to play, and many times cheaters have been allowed to start participating in new games within DAYS of their cheating.

I have yet to see a CONFIRMED cheater being denied access to a new game...


So, my point is: so far the Blacklist has not served any purpose, why would it serve any purpose from now on? If even the people who 'suffered' directly from it are too chicken to take action and deny the cheater access to the game in which the cheating itself occured, why would other people connect any concequences to it?

It hasn't happened so far, and I strongly doubt it will in the future.

 

[PinkyGen]

I just wanted to post my support for the cheaters list. I've played some games where cheating has ruined the game, or it delayed the game to the point that we never got done. I have also seen some of the best PBEM's being played ground to a halt because of a cheater.

To me, a cheater list seems obvious. It will allow players to check to see if anyone coming has been a cheater; in some cases, the cheater may be let in, in other cases, he or she won't. A PM system won't work, nobody keeps track of all the cheaters- a list is made to coalesce the names.

I agree, there should not be a perm-bann or anything like that for cheating. But if civfanatics wants to maintain its active PBEM forum, it needs something like this.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by germanos


Sas, as I have said, many times the players are allowed to continue to play, and many times cheaters have been allowed to start participating in new games within DAYS of their cheating.

I have yet to see a CONFIRMED cheater being denied access to a new game...


So, my point is: so far the Blacklist has not served any purpose, why would it serve any purpose from now on? If even the people who 'suffered' directly from it are too chicken to take action and deny the cheater access to the game in which the cheating itself occured, why would other people connect any concequences to it?

It hasn't happened so far, and I strongly doubt it will in the future.

So you're not going to answer my previous question either. I'll put it in Italics this time:

Thank you, you have made a very good case stating that the thread SERVES NO PURPOSE. However, could you please explain to me why it is WRONG and worth DELETING?

A perceived lack of usefulness is not a reason to delete a thread.

 

[germanos]

Originally posted by Darius

Again, this judgement is incorrect because MANY past cheaters have been kicked out even after asking to stay.

This is exactly my point: why ask cheaters to CONTINUE THE GAME

But the very people that you say got off scot-free would be on the list, so... I don't see your point.

People who are cheating KNOW they are cheating. Listing what cheats are won't prevent it at all, and if anything it'll cause a net increase by creating a how-to guide. We went over that a looooong time ago.

I know that we went over that a loooooong time ago. Yet, while reading the thread on Apolyton, it became very clear to me that even scenario-makers were using tactics while playing the turns that others considerd unfair. So I do think a discussion on fair-play (which is another way of saying NON-cheating) could be very helpfull.


I ahve always found the argument that listing ways to cheat would increase cheating moot.
In real life (at least where I live, and I doubt it will be different alsewhere in the world) everybody is required to know the law. To know the law, you will have to study it, and by studying it, you might well find many ways of breaking the law you would not have thought of yourself.
Tell me Darius: by learning of dispicable acts people have committed, and that were deamed illegal...Has that resulted in you breaking the law more often then before you had the knowledge?

 

[germanos]

Originally posted by Darius


So you're not going to answer my previous question either. I'll put it in Italics this time:

Thank you, you have made a very good case stating that the thread SERVES NO PURPOSE. However, could you please explain to me why it is WRONG and worth DELETING?

A perceived lack of usefulness is not a reason to delete a thread.

Sorry man, I hadn't read your post yet while I typed the reply to Sas...

[edit] editted out nasty remark [/edit]

[edit no.2] could you please tell me where to find this original question that you put in italics this time? I can't seem to find it[edit no.2]

 

[Darius]

I know that we went over that a loooooong time ago. Yet, while reading the thread on Apolyton, it became very clear to me that even scenario-makers were using tactics while playing the turns that others considerd unfair.

Reloading turns to get better combat results and/or for reconnassance is considered to be cheating by some, and not cheating by most. Since the general consensus is that it is ungentlemanly but not cheating (surprisingly) it is not considered cheating. The things that are considered cheating to virtually all of the community (and I'm biting my lip trying not to list them to strengthen my argument) are OBVIOUSLY cheating.

Tell me Darius: by learning of dispicable acts people have committed, and that were deamed illegal...Has that resulted in you breaking the law more often then before you had the knowledge?

That's absolutely apples and oranges and you know it.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by germanos
[edit no.2] could you please tell me where to find this original question that you put in italics this time? I can't seem to find it[edit no.2]

The clump of letters immediately preceding the question mark.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by germanos
So, my point is: so far the Blacklist has not served any purpose, why would it serve any purpose from now on?

Of course not, it's been there for less than a month! But there are situations in the past where it would have proven useful, and I can reasonably assume that similar situations will arise in the future.

 

[Aravorn]

Reply to Germano's:

Look at this from a newbies perspective. We got a newbie at the forum right now, his name is nuplicid.

He started an AOW Pbem.

Ohwell just got caught cheating at Imperialism. A bunch of us know about it including you but does nuplicid? Probally not unless he has been talking to someone who knows. So lets say Ohwell jumps into that game. Shouldn't nuplicid be able to make an informed decsion on whether a prior cheater could enter a game he just started?

And you can say the word gets around fast but how long does word pass?

I started PBEMing in late Aug/ Early Sept. I started a game in mid sept with Overlord. Well he got caught cheating in late November. Now lets not even talk about the 2 and a half months that Yop, I and Darius wasted on a PBEM. Lets talk about the fact that I found out Overlord was a d/l for Imperial Markus who was also a cheater. And got caught in August. My point being Someone got caught cheating a few weeks before I actively joined the forum. I didn't find out about that cheating incident until 2.5 months later. What if this guy was still around when I started playing? Shouldn't I be able to make an informed decision?

Lets say it is 6 months from now. I remember Ohwell cheated but I dont remember the details. So I go to the list because he just got into a PBEM Im in and I look at the circumstances of his cheating incident by following the links to the thread. And I read the thread and remember in my opinion anyway that Ohwell did not handle the incident well. Well thats enough for me Im not going to play with him. Then someone else like Eivind, who when caught admitted it aplogized and asked everyones forgiveness. Now I would probally do a PBEM with him. So you see there can be ways to use the list. Caveat emptor, let the buyer beware!

Some of us want and some of us will use the cheater list. If you dont want to use it or read it then dont. No one is making you read it. So I dont see what the big deal is.

And the forum is for everyone who wants to use it not just the guys who have been around the longest

Cheaters:die:

 

[Ohwell]

I am voicing my support for the list. I am a known cheater, and probably the only one in support of the list. This is because I know, first hand, that cheating is commonplace. It ruins many PBEMs. After cheating in only one PBEM you have the power to ruin all the PBEMs you are in. I ruined about 6 or 7.

I support IP checks of all players in a PBEM. These would be saved, and matched with previous cheaters.

I also support E-mail checks, for the same reason.

All cheaters wishing to enter a game must provide the thread and date of cheating in their post and the players can decide if they want to allow the person to play.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I think the Mods for the forum could maintain a list of cheaters, but mainly as a means to track players and look for DL's.

Right now we may not be seeing many players getting rejected from games, but I'd bet that will slowly change. People didn't think that there were that many cheaters in the games, but now they are realizing how much it is happening. Players are also reluctant to refuse players because there are so few players to start with. It's a dimea, do you have a game not even be able to start because there aren't enough players or allow a cheater to play and hope they are 'reformed'.

An issue I have is that I lose heart in checking games for cheaters. I have to spend a lot of time checking games for cheaters, usually only to have the game be killed becasue no replacement players can be found. However, I've noticed a small increase in regular players so maybe that won't be such an issue in the future.

I think that should be our goal; to increase the number of players. One aspect of this is to make the PBEM forums a place that they would want to play their games at. To do this I think they need to feel they are being 'protected' from cheaters.

Once there are enough players, I don't think a Blacklist would be needed. When a player is caught cheating, they would generally be shunned from games and leave. The only positive I see from the blacklist is that it would let new players know who has already cheated, but if the cheating player is no longer around, why would they need to know? Then it would be the Mods job to watch for DL's of the cheater. That's the key. Catch them cheating, don't let them play in new games and then if they create a DL, they are now breaking forum rules and will be banned.

My other concern is that this won't be dealt with until it becomes an issue for Civ 3. Then it will suddenly become a priority for more people and then dealt with.

 

[Franklyn]

Here's another suggestion: Maybe someone (or several someones) who plays a lot of MP and PBEM keep a list of cheaters. If a cheater signs up for a game on these boards, the listkeeper can PM the game starter - think of it as a warning of sorts; maybe a heads-up is a better word. Maybe if a few folks get turned down for a game, they'll get the hint to get lost.

-- franklyn

 

[Darius]

First off, I'm sorry if my debating is half-assed, it's just that I spend hours on this stupid argument before and just don't have the energy to do it all over again.

Originally posted by germanos
So, my point is: so far the Blacklist has not served any purpose, why would it serve any purpose from now on?

As I said a moment ago, there have been situations where it would have been useful. These are the three examples I've given, and there are others.

Eivind IV was caught cheating at Civfanatics. Under the Apolyton alias ‘Kobra’, he joined a game at Apolyton and was accepted into it, without mentioning his past at CFC. Fortunately Case was browsing the thread and he told everyone. You could make the case as AoA has that this incident would argue for the food ol’ boy system, but the point I’m making is what if Case hadn’t been there? If a list had been in place the organizer of the game could have made sure.

Elibb at Civfanatics was caught cheating in a game by Duke of Marlbrough. Rather than making it public, DoM and Kobayashi kept it secret and let him continue to play. He played in 4+ games, was caught cheating, and it killed all of them. Had his cheating been made public, the players in those games could have chosen for themselves, and it is likely that in some of them he wouldn't be allowed to play. But instead numerous fun games had to die without them even having a choice. Does that sound right to you? Huh?

Another example, DoM is doing some DL checks at my request, by comparing the IP's of suspects to 'known cheaters'. However it turned out that he didn't know all the known cheaters, so I referred him to the list.

But what worries me more than situations where it would have been helpful are future situations that I can't even think of.

And to clarify, my position is NOT that a blacklist would prevent any past cheaters from playing, although that could be a use of it. It will serve two purposes:

1) A list will prevent cheaters from joining games without the other players knowing that he has cheated elsewhere. Don't laugh, this has happened. A list would certainly prevent this from happening.

2) A list can even serve a purpose in identifying DL's of past cheaters. Whether it be grammar, location, playing style, signature contents, or whatever else, DL cheaters could be identified more easily if people could go to the list and study past cheaters. It could also serve as a method with which players and moderators can compare the date where a cheater disappeared with the date that the suspected DL registered.

These two instances admittedly could be rare, but that's not a reason to delete a thread.