Cheater Thread at CIV2 PBEM Forum

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Simple, TF doesn't want it. His site, his rules. Wether he personally doesn't want it or is influenced by others, who knows.

Simple as that.

If we can keep the cheaters out of the forum, then there's no need to know who they were since they won't be playing. If they are playing after cheating, then it's by the decision of the Mod and the players. The Mod watches for DL's. Effective, simple, clear.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Darius, it was you fellows at Apolyton that were childish, not I, I would caution you to mind your manners.

I made clear why such a list is wrong, and you WILL NEVER SEE IT HERE.

Thunderfall's solution is a good one, and we will try that, but once again, your not going to have a black list here, so forget it.

 

[Aravorn]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Darius, it was you fellows at Apolyton that were childish, not I, I would caution you to mind your manners.

Thunderfall's solution is a good one, and we will try that, but once again, your not going to have a black list here, so forget it.

Hmmmm, AoA if I recall corectly you refered to me as a Fascist, when IMHO I was trying to calm down an explosive situation at Apoly. Im not quite sure I can agree with your first statement above based on that fact. Darius is getting a little excited but I dont think he is slandering anyone.

However trying to remain the cooler head around here, (and at Apoly too I might add) Im glad you agree with TF's solution in the second statement. Because the bottomline for me is to do something about cheating. Get proactive rather than reactive.

And not rely on the "GOOD OLD BOY" network. It is unrelaible at best and is not fair to newbies.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Steve, I was attacked in that thread, look at my first post , I said I disagreed, and was blitzed.

If you look at Darius first post here, he attempts another swipe.

I have no say at what Apolyton does, and I don't want a say, but here is another matter.
I said there I didn't like cheating, but I have been a gamer for better then 30 years, blacklists do nothing but create a dis-service to the gaming community.

Let cheating be dealt with, but there will be no such list here, some of the staff would resign in protest over such a list (I would not).

I feel that people go to far sometimes with these things, the possibility of abuse is immense, and I for one, will not have it here.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Now if the rest of you staff members who voiced your opinion about the list were actually in PBEMs, then i would add u to the 20% who don't want the list.

Oooh how lucky, I'm in a PBEM, can you add me to the list?

The idea was shot down for reasons you obviously couldn't see at the time, nothing more.

The solution now is a fine one, and much better than your original solution

If you really hate these PBEM cheaters so much, then you should embrace thunderfall's decision.

 

[Thunderfall]

I hope PBEM players realize that not having a public black list doesn't mean we will do nothing about the cheaters... We will do alot.

 

[Case]

Originally posted by Thunderfall
How about this:

When a cheater is confirmed, SunTzu can PM me and I will remove access to the PBEM/MP forums for that cheater so he can't view the PBEM/MP forums. If the cheater then creates DLs, we'll consider perm banning the poster.

That sounds workable. However, the downside is that players won't just 'disappear' - people will discuss what happened to them, with the result that in a day or two everyone will know that they're a cheater.

Still, seeing as most confirmed cheaters disappear (though this seems to be changing), IMO TF's proposal seems perfectly sensible, especially if it stops cheaters coming back under different log ins.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Simple, TF doesn't want it. His site, his rules. Wether he personally doesn't want it or is influenced by others, who knows.

Simple as that.

Now that's all I needed to hear. If SunTzu and a vast majority of the PBEM community want to fight on they can but I won't.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I have no say at what Apolyton does, and I don't want a say, but here is another matter.

And it shouldn't be, because PBEM ISN'T YOUR FORUM.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I feel that people go to far sometimes with these things, the possibility of abuse is immense

Well, absolutely no abuse has occurred at Apolyton (nobody's even gotten close). When it does, you can point it out to me, ok?

 

[Darius]

Btw, your claim that you were attacked first is downright incorrect, and it's obvious to anyone who reads it carefully. Up until the post where you said he was immature and a fascist, no one said anything even remotely insulting to you (see for yourself). The harshest things he said were 'lighten up' and 'that is your opinion NOT fact', and if you consider those personal attacks then you're nuts. YOU were the first to mudsling, and therefore you are responsible for any mudslinging that occurred after that point. I defy you to quote one insult from me or Steve prior to your post. Or perhaps you can just delude yourself.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

I defy you to post on topic. You can carry on your debate with aoa over PM.

However I carry TF's point that just because there isn't a blacklist doesn't mean nothing will be done. This is actually a more efficient way of dealing with things as no one has to check a list for cheaters, if they're in there then they're either not a cheater or they're a DL which can't be stopped except by perhaps bi-weekly checks of those on the staff enclosed cheater list.

Thunderfall has spoke, debate now is worthless on this issue..perhaps if you were fighting for custom avs it'd be different..but we have those so

 

[SunTzu]

well i will carry my own blacklists and i will warn new PBEMers of past cheaters, well i will do that unless i have any objections from you, which i'm sure yall are full of them

 

[Aravorn]

Hmmmm debate is over huh? Well that is probally good. But the bottomline is we are going to do something about cheaters. That makes me happy.

So what is the current proposal from management?

Sun Tzu sends the name to TF after rock solid proof and they get banned. Is this correct?

Questions: should it be a perma ban after the first offense or should a cheater get a second chance? Lets say a two week vacation after the first offense and then a perma ban if it continues.

I believe that would keep people like me happy who would prefer torture followed by slow death to cheaters and keep people who think a perma ban is too harsh the first time happy.

A Middle ground ? Can most of us at least accept that and move on?

Comments?

And lets not worry about the cheater list right now lets make sure we do the punishment for cheaters correctly OK?

But SunTzu by all means keep your own Blacklist, we in the forum can access via you and hopefully it will have almost the same effect. Except that it can not be "deleted by higher authority".

It will be more work for us to educate newbies but I can help with that. So enough on the Blacklist. Lets talk about the fun stuff like punishing cheaters!

Comments?

 

[Case]

Originally posted by conmcb25
Questions: should it be a perma ban after the first offense or should a cheater get a second chance? Lets say a two week vacation after the first offense and then a perma ban if it continues.

A short holiday sounds like a fair punishment for first ofenders, with persistant offenders getting a perma-ban for their troubles.

But SunTzu by all means keep your own Blacklist, we in the forum can access via you and hopefully it will have almost the same effect. Except that it can not be "deleted by higher authority".

...Unless SunTzu misses a cheater or mistakenly thinks that someone cheated...

 

[Aravorn]

Originally posted by Case
...Unless SunTzu misses a cheater or mistakenly thinks that someone cheated...

I promised to get off the cheater list discussion but I cant resist this one!

Case what is your point. The important thing is not to post it at the forum. If it was posted it would be checked and double checked by people like you, me and Darius and DoM, etc to make sure there are no mistakes. After all the people posting to the list got nothing to worry about do they, other than your reputation if you make a mistake, if its public. Heck if it is a non public list then you and I and others would NOT have to spend HOURS checking and double checking just to make sure.

But if Sun Tzu keeps it that will be better because then it becomes A TRUE "Blacklist", and therefore not subject to any kind of check and balance by the community we want to do diservice to by posting it, even though at last count 17 PBEMers were in favor of the list.

So we get a "REAL" "BLACKLIST" That has no checks and balances and will make everyone at the Forum think we are on a witch hunt.

But the important thing is satisfied. We wont post the list!

Now that I have that off my chest lets get back to punishment!

Case agrees with a vacation and then a perma ban. And I would really like to hear from management on this one. Especially TF and SunTzu.

Thanks

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Darius
Btw, your claim that you were attacked first is downright incorrect, and it's obvious to anyone who reads it carefully. Up until the post where you said he was immature and a fascist, no one said anything even remotely insulting to you (see for yourself). The harshest things he said were 'lighten up' and 'that is your opinion NOT fact', and if you consider those personal attacks then you're nuts. YOU were the first to mudsling, and therefore you are responsible for any mudslinging that occurred after that point. I defy you to quote one insult from me or Steve prior to your post. Or perhaps you can just delude yourself.

You know, I find it hard to believe your still attempting to bait me.

You are not going to, no matter how hard you try.

BTW, EVERYTHING that happens here concerns ALL the staff, attempt to tell me again it's not "my forum", and watch how fast you won't be able to post here for a short vacation.

Consider this an offical warning, if I see another attempt at this little game, you will be taking a break.

Count on it.

TF's solution is a good one, a black list is a bad one, so that closes this matter.

 

[Thunderfall]

Originally posted by conmcb25
Case agrees with a vacation and then a perma ban. And I would really like to hear from management on this one. Especially TF and SunTzu.

I don't think we need to write down the exact formula for punishments. We usually evaluate things on a case by case basis. One thing is for sure though: it's not an easy thing to get a perm ban. Our forum is 2 years old and the number of real perm bans (i.e. not including DL perm bans) is not that many.

The general procedure right now is SunTzu reports confirmed cheaters and we can ban the cheaters from the PBEM/MP forum for a limited time (2 weeks, 1 month, etc) or permanently. Perm banning (may involve IP ban) the cheater from the entire CFC forum will be considered if the cheater repeatedly attempts to bypass the ban. Also, DLs will be perm banned as soon as they are discovered, as always.

 

[SunTzu]

blacklist is good, TF's decision is alright, i'd still like a blacklist, but its obvious we PBEM-ers will have to do with this 'solution'

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
You know, I find it hard to believe your still attempting to bait me.

Bait you? You lied and in response I stated an obvious fact. You can take whatever meaning out of my words that you want.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Consider this an offical warning, if I see another attempt at this little game, you will be taking a break.

Well I have no idea what 'game' you're talking about, but it's nice to know I'll get banned for nothing.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
TF's solution is a good one, a black list is a bad one, so that closes this matter.

I already accepted that several posts back. Frankly I couldn't care less if there's a list or not, but while there was a debate about it and TF had yet to put his foot down I made my case. I posted at Apolyton

I'm not too thrilled about this either. People brought up the idea of listing cheaters, I and a few people thought it was a good idea, and I made the thread because no one else had the balls to. I'm not passionate about it at all and frankly I don't care if it gets deleted because people make WAY too big a deal out of it, on BOTH sides.

a month ago, and it still stands true. While he stands against the majority of PBEM players, Thunderfall has made his decision and that's it. If Steve and SunTzu want to keep *****ing they can.

 

[duke o' york]

Darius, I see you as a valuable member of the Civ 2 community here so please just give it up with AoA. I really can't imagine that a spat between the two of you will achieve anything worthwhile, unless you really want to be banned and/or AoA really wants to ban you, neither of which are particularly likely.

Anyway, sticking my oar into an area in which I have no expertise:
I am in favour of a PBEM blacklist, but one that is posted in the private staff forum, if this would be possible. Then it would not be in the public domain and would not have the negative effects listed above while allowing the PBEM players to better regulate their games and avoid disappointment when games are ruined by cheating. I presume that SunTzu would have control of this list, compiled from past knowledge of incidents on this site and maybe from the 'poly list too. Whenever a new PBEM is being set up then SunTzu or another mod could check the list and send the organiser a PM if one of those who has put their name forward to play has a record of cheating. If the organiser of the game is prepared to go ahead with the game then all well and good, but if they do not want to risk the possibility of cheating then they can PM the cheater in question and ask them to withdraw from the game. A claim that whoever it is will be too busy to play will not make the list of cheaters really obvious as long as players do not assume that cheating is the only reason someone would withdraw from a game being set up. People do get piles of extra work or have to go on trips now and again and so the use of a suitable excuse should save face all round for those guilty of cheating or not in the way that a public blacklist could not. Of course if the cheater in question refuses to withdraw from the game after a polite request from the organiser, then the mods would have to take over. This could be sending a PM with a link to their exposure as a cheat and a demand that they withdraw, making clear the possibility of future action if necessary.

I am also worried that people have been talking above about perma-bans. I hope that you were referring to having the cheat's access to the two MP forums (for both games obviously) permanently removed, rather than denying them access to the entire site. If they were to post details of the game in question in another forum to spoil it for the other players then a site ban would be appropriate, just as it would if someone tried to spoil one of the Demo games, but a site ban for breaking the rulesof the PBEM forums seems far too harsh for me. Besides, I'd miss Ohwell.

 

[Aravorn]

TF

I agree with your solution in post #76 100%! And thanks for hearing us out and coming up with a workable solution!

So when do we start? Or have we already started?