Cheater Thread at CIV2 PBEM Forum

[Aravorn]

Wondering why the cheater thread got deleted at the CIV 2 PBEM Forum?

Recently we have had several instances of cheating. Cheating can quickly ruin a PBEM that a bunch of guys have spent a lot of time on.

We Also have been getting a few newbies at the Forum lately.

So why do we have to rely on word of mouth about cheaters?

We need to do something because it is not fair to the people who dont cheat.

If not a list then what? But cant we do something?

 

[Chieftess]

There was some controversy about it amongst staff and users... So, it was decided to remove the thread.

 

[Aravorn]

Originally posted by Chieftess
There was some controversy about it amongst staff and users... So, it was decided to remove the thread.

Hmmmmmm

How about this part of the question?

"If not a list then what? But cant we do something?"

Or are we going to continue to rely on the pass the word via "The Good Old Boy " System.

And Im not sure why there should be controversy. Someone does something wrong and there are consequences. I dont understand what is wrong with that?

And yes I realize most of them leave and that is a consequence but if we had a list or something would that not be a deterant to anyone new who thought about cheating? Trying to do something BEFORE someone cheats would help out those who dont cheat.

How about a thread that tells exactly what will happen to cheaters?

How about a three strikes and you are out policy? (Perma-ban)

I insult a moderator and I get banned for a week. Someone cheats and nothing officially happens to them. It is my opinion but something just doesn't seem right about that to me.

I just think we need to do something................

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

This is not a PBEM site. PBEM games are a feature of the site, they are not the site itself. There is currently NOTHING in the rule stating any sort of punishment for PBEM cheating.

About the thread, CFC does NOT support elitism in any form. Anyone who spends time in the PBEM forum learns who cheats, if not you can just do a quick search of that username in that forum when they sign up for your game and see if they've cheated.

If you really want to see one then go to poly's PBEM forum, there's one in there

As to the question of what we are going to do about it, that's between you guys and suntzu to find out, but I'll tell you 2 things that will NOT happen: Blacklists and Perma-bannings, 2 of the worst proposals I've heard.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Well, actually, Perm-Bans do happen there, but not because of the cheating, but because of the DL's the cheaters use.

I agree that more needs to be done about the cheaters, but I don't think a 'cheaters list' is the way to go.

Here's the gist of a PM I sent Sun about it:

I agree that we need to discourage cheaters, but I don't think a 'cheaters' list is the best way.

I think a thread that shows the steps that are taken to catch and deter cheaters could be more effective.

One that says that all new members are checked for DL's of known cheaters. One that lets people know that games will be randomly checked for cheating. One that lets people know who they can go to for suspicious games to be checked. One that lets people know what can happen to them if they cheat.

Letting people know that cheaters are actively being looked for would probably do more than a list of people that had been caught.

It would serve basically the same purpose; letting people know that cheating is not tolerated but in a positive way. That way we are being proactive rather than reactive.

While I don't think Perm-Bans are the answer I do think some ban might be appropriate. Posters are banned for spam, insulting posters, and posting things known to be false; all are things that can be the considered the case when a cheater posts a cheated game.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I didn't realise there're so many issues behind cheaters in PBEMs. I've been playing a few of them in Civ3/PTW; so far nothing untowards since I 'know' most of my fellow PBEMers...

Are we going to adopt the same measures for the Civ3 side someday?

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
I didn't realise there're so many issues behind cheaters in PBEMs. I've been playing a few of them in Civ3/PTW; so far nothing untowards since I 'know' most of my fellow PBEMers...

Are we going to adopt the same measures for the Civ3 side someday?

Perhaps, after you see nearly ten cheaters come and go, and after you see almost two dozen fun games be corrupted and/or killed by them.

Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ
This is not a PBEM site. PBEM games are a feature of the site, they are not the site itself. There is currently NOTHING in the rule stating any sort of punishment for PBEM cheating.

No one is asking the site to do anything at all. The list was created by a private poster (me) and it was erased. All we'd be asking is that if someone were to create the thread, and it remained civil (as the Apolyton one has), that it not be deleted.

Btw, did you read the debate threads at Apolyton? I really don't want to say all the same things over again here, so I suggest you read them. Mainly all I want to say here is that the list would be created and maintained by a private poster. It would only state undisputed fact rather than accusations and/or insults, and therefore it would not be against the forum rules as they are written today.

 

[Darius]

Just so that you can get the background on this redundant argument:

- http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68411

A thread Choke made asking us to suggest possible solutions to cheating in PBEMs. It was here that the possibility of listing cheaters came up again.


- http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68627

The list.


- http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69623

St. Leo made this special thread in which to dump any spam that people posted on the list, which was meant to only list the facts. In this thread debate began.


- http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69766

A poll I created on whether or not a list should exist.


- http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70561

Exile's request for the input of scenario designers in particular.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I see your point. I will surely be pissed like hell if after playing a PBEM for six months and then discovering the other guy(s) is cheating...

But so far, I haven't encountered any yet. The PBEM section for Civ3 is still rather new... Civ3 PBEM itself is still rather buggy - some issues to solve yet before cheaters need to create DLs and stuff to cheat.

 

[Chieftess]

Plus, Civ2 had a cheat menu built right into it... And there've been a cheat-switching util since the days of "The Ultimate Civ2 Site".

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
I think a thread that shows the steps that are taken to catch and deter cheaters could be more effective.

One that says that all new members are checked for DL's of known cheaters. One that lets people know that games will be randomly checked for cheating. One that lets people know who they can go to for suspicious games to be checked. One that lets people know what can happen to them if they cheat.

Letting people know that cheaters are actively being looked for would probably do more than a list of people that had been caught.

It would serve basically the same purpose; letting people know that cheating is not tolerated but in a positive way. That way we are being proactive rather than reactive.

While I don't think Perm-Bans are the answer I do think some ban might be appropriate. Posters are banned for spam, insulting posters, and posting things known to be false; all are things that can be the considered the case when a cheater posts a cheated game.

Thank you Duke, I must say that you are the first person to suggest an alternate solution rather than just slam the list and the people for it. God knows AoA won't be as mature as you when he finds this thread.

I pose this question to you all, which has never been answered to my satisfaction: what is the problem with a list? You all have diligently pointed out that it is unnecessary ('cheaters become known', etc.) and why it is ineffective ('it doesn't stop them', etc.), but never why it is wrong. They are three different things, and only two have been addressed.

The significance of my point is this:

If something a private poster posts is unnecessary, then it is ignored and it fades away.

If something a private poster posts is ineffective, then it is ignored and it fades away.

If something a private poster posts is immoral, slanderous, or offensive, then it is deleted.

Only the first two issues have been addressed, while the only one that would actually warrant deletion of someone's posts has been entirely ignored.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
I see your point. I will surely be pissed like hell if after playing a PBEM for six months and then discovering the other guy(s) is cheating...

That's the point. When I began playing I never thought of such harsh reaction to cheaters, but after seeing numerous fun and time-consuming games drop like flies over the last year and a half. I'm sick and tired of it, and so are almost all PBEM players. Let US have the thread; the mods don't even have to do anything. Around 51%-80% of the players want it*, and the moderator of the PBEM forum wants it, so let it be.

*- Before you shoot this claim down as speculation, look at all five of the threads I posted, as well as the petition thread being created here. I can confidently say that a general consensus of PBEM'ers support the list (or at least oppose its deletion, whichever one), if not a vast majority.

 

[Aravorn]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
I see your point. I will surely be pissed like hell if after playing a PBEM for six months and then discovering the other guy(s) is cheating...

But so far, I haven't encountered any yet. The PBEM section for Civ3 is still rather new... Civ3 PBEM itself is still rather buggy - some issues to solve yet before cheaters need to create DLs and stuff to cheat.

Knight Dragon, there is a lot of smart people out there. A lot smarter than me. They will eventually find a way. I still dont know how all the cheating actually happens, even though I finally exposed one in the last week myself.

And I dont want to go into the details, this shouldn't become a how to cheat list.

 

[Aravorn]

Originally posted by Darius


That's the point. When I began playing I never thought of such harsh reaction to cheaters, but after seeing numerous fun and time-consuming games drop like flies over the last year and a half. I'm sick and tired of it, and so are almost all PBEM players. Let US have the thread; the mods don't even have to do anything. Around 60-80% of the players want it, and the moderator of the PBEM forum wants it, so let it be.

I agree with Darius and I've only been playing about 4 or 5 months. And I have already spent way too much time exposing cheaters. And I only did it once! And I have had several games ruined by cheaters agian in only a couple of months.

I just think something needs to be done about it other than rely on the "Good Old Boy" network. We got newbies too!

Lets get proactive rather than reactive that is all I ask, please!

 

[Darius]

Also we're not noting that the decrepid 'good ol boy' system that people seem to cling to has failed before.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The game forum moderators and Thunderfall fall are (slowly) discussing what formal rules of process there will be at CFC to deal with game cheating. Any informal process among players will almost certainly have to use private communication, not forum posting. The forum has a fairly broad rule against threads and posts attacking posters EVEN IF TRUTHFULL. I rather doubt that it will be altered to allow this exception.

 

[Darius]

Well the only problem is the word 'attacking'. I don't think anyone considers personal attacks the purpose of the list. Nor is the purpose to create de facto bans by having people shun those on the list. Two people who are on the list are still playing games, so there's the proof that it is not meant to deter people from joining games.

 

[Franklyn]

It saddens me to see that CFC members are even having to talk about this. I mean, come on, it's just a game, fer cryin' out loud.

That said, I'd encourage the mods to consider making the names of confirmed cheaters public. I understand the need to protect against ad hominem attacks - that's what makes this forum so civil and inviting for folks. But a cheater's thread might have to be the exception to the rule.

Another thought: Someone might want to keep a cheaters list off site (as in on someon'esa personal Web site) that can be linked to from posts, etc.

 

[Darius]

Originally posted by Franklyn
Another thought: Someone might want to keep a cheaters list off site (as in on someon'esa personal Web site) that can be linked to from posts, etc.

The thread that was deleted wasn't a blacklist, it was a link to an already existing list off site. So your suggestion has already been tried, and it turned out that even posting a link isn't allowed.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

No, it was a copy of an off-site blacklist

I'm looking at it in staff as I write, it IS a blacklist.