Chen Qingzhi

How would you rate Chen Qingzhi as a General?

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  • Total voters
    3

christos200

Never tell me the odds
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How would you rate Chen Qingzhi as a General? Rate from 1 to 10. 1 is the best and 10 the worse.

Chen Qingzhi (Simplified Chinese: 陈庆之; Traditional Chinese: 陳慶之) was a prominent general of the Liang dynasty. He is best known for his campaign in 530 to crush Northern Wei. Chen, with only 7,000 troops, invaded Northern Wei. At Liangguo, Chen's 7,000 men defeated Qiu Daqian's Northern Wei army of 70,000 men in a battle that lasted half a day, and Qiu Daqian surrendered. Chen then attacked Kaocheng, held by Yuan Huiye with 20,000 Northern Wei imperial guards. The city fell and Yuan was captured.

Next, Chen attacked Xingyang, but was unable to take it because of its strong garrison of 70,000 troops. A Northern Wei army of 300,000 under Yuan Tianmu and Erzhu Tumo'er was arriving soon to relieve Xingyang, so Chen rallied his men with a speech:

"Ever since we entered Wei territory, we have been capturing land, slaughtering many people in the cities we took. You have killed many peoples' fathers and brothers, and taken many people's children as slaves. Yuan Tianmu's soldiers are all our bitter enemies now. We have only 7,000 men, but the barbarians have over 300,000. Today, the only way for us to survive against the odds is to resolve to fight and die. The barbarians have too many cavalry for us to handle, so we cannot engage them on the plain. We should take advantage of their not having arrived yet, and attack Xingyang with all we've got, capture it, and then hold out. Let's not hesitate. It's time to take some heads!"

Chen then led his troops to storm the walls of Xingyang, capturing it at last. However, more than 500 Liang soldiers were killed or injured. Before long, Yuan Tianmu and Erzhu Tumo'er arrived with their 300,000 troops, straight from Ji'nan (in Shandong). They surrounded Xingyang, but Chen led 3,000 cavalry out and smashed them (against odds of 100 to 1).

Next, Chen moved west and attacked the Hulao Pass, and the Wei commanding general Erzhu Shilong abandoned the Pass and fled. Luoyang was left open to attack by Chen, and the Northern Wei emperor Yuan Ziyou abandoned the city and fled across the Yellow River to Henei. Chen was thus able to enter the capital city with his army and set Yuan Hao up as the new Northern Wei emperor.

Unfortunately, Yuan Hao did not wish to remain a puppet of the Liang dynasty, and refused Chen's request for more elite Liang reinforcements. To prevent Chen from getting reinforcements behind his back, he even wrote to Xiao Yan claiming that the situation was under control and that it would be unwise to send more Liang occupation troops in, in case it aroused more resentment among the people of the captured Northern Wei cities. Xiao Yan thus halted the movement of reinforcements from the Liang-Wei border. To make matters worse, Chen's soldiers committed abuses and atrocities on the people of Luoyang, losing all local support, while Yuan Hao also proved an inept and self-indulgent ruler.

Within less than two months of Yuan Hao's entry into Luoyang, the Northern Wei loyalist counterattack succeeded despite fierce resistance from Chen's army, and Yuan Hao fled from the city. Chen led his troops on an orderly retreat, pursued by Erzhu Rong. But his army was caught in a flash flood at the Mount Song River (outside Luoyang), and almost completely destroyed - most of the troops either died or deserted. Chen himself escaped back to the south after shaving his head and disguising himself as a monk.
 
I don't know him, but it seems very unlikely that the quoted (wiki) part is anywhere near being an accurate history of what happened. 3K men cannot defeat 300K in similar-style of combat and arms.
Not to forget that the article states that he lead 3K cavalry against an army of more cavalry and overall numbering 300K troops, in an open field (around the city), and "smashed them". Not likely at all, unless he had Tesla super-weapons. :)
 
According to Chinese tradition, he really managed to do this and he conquered, albeit briefly, North China with only 7,000 soldiers. He is also considered one of the 10 greatest Chinese Generals.
 
if he is played by Jackie Chan in any movie , it is the truth .
 
So, would it be more realistic to assume that the 300,000 soldiers were in reality to 30,000?
 
Yes. The Han, for example, may had an army of 1,000,000 men (including the garrisons), but they could only support 100,000 or, the most, 200,000 in a single campaign. So, an army of 300,000 for the Northern Wei is not much realistic.
 
Yes. The Han, for example, may had an army of 1,000,000 men (including the garrisons), but they could only support 100,000 or, the most, 200,000 in a single campaign. So, an army of 300,000 for the Northern Wei is not much realistic.
Even those Han numbers are inflated. The Romans had a similar population yet a much smaller military.
 
This guy did a fair bit of research (in Chinese):

http://bbs.tianya.cn/post-no05-189981-1.shtml

His conclusion was that Chen merely defeated Yuan's vanguard of 5,000 barbarian horsemen led by Erzhu Tumo'er, and another vanguard of 9,000 men led by Lu An.

Yuan Tianmu's 300,000 men (if it was that much - more like 30,000) never arrived at Xinyang. Luoyang, the capital of Northern Wei, was taken by Yuan Hao rather than Chen. Yuan Hao wasn't a puppet of Chen as suggested by the article, and probably had a bigger army. Yuan Tianmu debated with his staff and court dignitaries on whether to take Luoyang back right away, or to follow the fleeing Wei emperor north which he went with. There was no mention of Xingyang (the city Chen took). Two months later Northern Wei's first general, Erzhu Rong, came back with a large force to retake Luoyang. Chen was of course unable to stop that.

The story of 3,000 versus 300,000 was in the Book of Liang, a version of history written by Chen's side. Records from Wei's side did not mention the same battle.

That said, Chen was probably a brilliant tactical, division-level commander, with an elite force of 5,000 men who won most of his battles.
 
Even those Han numbers are inflated. The Romans had a similar population yet a much smaller military.

And there are flaws with Roman soldier counts too (although, generally, they just liked to inflate their enemy numbers. The good sources are thought to have gotten Roman numbers fairly close).
 
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