Chickenhawk Hall of Shame

[Wolfbeckett]

I find the whole "Women shouldn't be serving in the military because men will just get distracted" line of reasoning silly and outdated. and sexist. But that's just me.

I'm with you, that line of reasoning doesn't work.

The line of reasoning that I think DOES work is that anyone serving in combat, male or female, should have the same exact physical standards. People who have actually served chiming in would be welcome, but I can imagine that if I were a soldier seeing action, I would want to be damned sure that anyone who was beside me would be physically strong enough to help me get to safety if I took one in the leg or something.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm with you, that line of reasoning doesn't work.

The line of reasoning that I think DOES work is that anyone serving in combat, male or female, should have the same exact physical standards. People who have actually served chiming in would be welcome, but I can imagine that if I were a soldier seeing action, I would want to be damned sure that anyone who was beside me would be physically strong enough to help me get to safety if I took one in the leg or something.

The physical demands of my military career consisted mostly of flipping switches, which pretty much anyone could do. However surviving for three months at a time in a submarine was also required, and anyone who thinks that's easy is welcome to go do it. Surviving that three months at a time would not be made easier by mixing gender in the crew, period. No amount of 'but it shouldn't be that way' gnashing of teeth is going to change that.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Say, Tim, I want you to speak to your larger point in the context of this claim:

Try spending six hours in a four foot by ten foot room with three other people...then imagine eating every meal with them, sleeping in the same room with them, and repeating the six hours in the box routine once or twice a day for three months. I promise you that before the three months are up the idea of killing at least one of them will have measurable merit.

Might long-term military service together be anti-erotic in just the way you've described above sufficiently to cancel out the problems you see with women and men serving together?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Say, Tim, I want you to speak to your larger point in the context of this claim:


Might long-term military service together be anti-erotic in just the way you've described above sufficiently to cancel out the problems you see with women and men serving together?

I didn't say it was anti-erotic. Part of the tension in that little room stemmed from the fact that, to be frank, none of us were getting laid. One of the 'entertainments' was to describe a sexual encounter and see if you could get one of your fellow watchstanders to have an uncomfortable physical response that they wouldn't be able to do anything about, just to make them more miserable than they already were. I knew a guy who could recite three or four Penthouse forum letters from memory, which we would put him up to try out on new guys just to watch them squirm.

Misery loves company, but what it really loves is knowing someone else is even more miserable than you. Multiply that by 120 guys stuck in a submarine and you get some idea what makes it hard to survive. If I call you a name, and it makes you mad, you are guaranteed to hear it from 120 guys in the next twelve hours. Some will wake you up just for the opportunity. If saying something crude about your wife upsets you, you either need to hide it well or get over it. If there is any opening that leads under your skin it will be found, and continuously exploited for as long as it works.

And people think this is a place where mixed genders is going to work out well? Seriously?

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I didn't say it was anti-erotic. Part of the tension in that little room stemmed from the fact that, to be frank, none of us were getting laid. One of the 'entertainments' was to describe a sexual encounter and see if you could get one of your fellow watchstanders to have an uncomfortable physical response that they wouldn't be able to do anything about, just to make them more miserable than they already were. I knew a guy who could recite three or four Penthouse forum letters from memory, which we would put him up to try out on new guys just to watch them squirm.

Misery loves company, but what it really loves is knowing someone else is even more miserable than you. Multiply that by 120 guys stuck in a submarine and you get some idea what makes it hard to survive. If I call you a name, and it makes you mad, you are guaranteed to hear it from 120 guys in the next twelve hours. Some will wake you up just for the opportunity. If saying something crude about your wife upsets you, you either need to hide it well or get over it. If there is any opening that leads under your skin it will be found, and continuously exploited for as long as it works.

And people think this is a place where mixed genders is going to work out well? Seriously?

I suppose all of this could be solved if grown-ass men would stop acting like teenagers but, well, good luck with that.

 

[Borachio]

And people think this is a place where mixed genders is going to work out well? Seriously?

Yes. Seriously. I've worked in all male environments before now. And as women come into them, as they surely gradually must, the culture changes.

No doubt living in a confined space with people over a period of three months has its challenges. But they're not increased by having mixed genders.

Women usually have a civilizing influence.

Still, it's quite likely that submariners will turn out to be one of the final bastions of male-only society. I'm not convinced that's necessarily a good thing.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I suppose all of this could be solved if grown-ass men would stop acting like teenagers but, well, good luck with that.

Let me point out once again that about half of the "grown ass men" on my submarine were in fact teenagers.

Women usually have a civilizing influence.

Women might, but girls frequently don't. As Wolfbeckett, you are counting on a level of maturity that is not actually present in the average military unit.

 

[nc-1701]

Any reason we can't have all female submarine crews? Hell maybe that way we could build the ceilings a bit shorter and save money.

 

[Borachio]

Women might, but girls frequently don't. As Wolfbeckett, you are counting on a level of maturity that is not actually present in the average military unit.

That's probably true. The American military does seem to like its cannon fodder young, for some reason. Possibly because they're more biddable.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

That's probably true. The American military does seem to like its cannon fodder young, for some reason. Possibly because they're more biddable.

They're easier to train and, frankly, easier to market to. A large portion of the people that go into the military do it because they're fresh out of high school with no college or job prospects and the military represents a guaranteed pay check followed by financial aid for schooling after.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Any reason we can't have all female submarine crews? Hell maybe that way we could build the ceilings a bit shorter and save money.

Judging by the scars on my forehead height of the crew is not a design criteria in placing the 'ceilings'.

As to an all female crew, I see no reason that could not be done.

 

[Borachio]

Imagine that! An all female crew. Quick! Someone ring Hollywood.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They're easier to train and, frankly, easier to market to. A large portion of the people that go into the military do it because they're fresh out of high school with no college or job prospects and the military represents a guaranteed pay check followed by financial aid for schooling after.

Forgive my sheltered American-ness, but isn't that basically how it is done everywhere?

 

[Farm Boy]

Judging by the scars on my forehead height of the crew is not a design criteria in placing the 'ceilings'.

As to an all female crew, I see no reason that could not be done.

Syncing. Nuclear warheads.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Syncing. Nuclear warheads.

As the guy who was taking a beating for being sexist I am really glad you came along.

 

[JollyRoger]

 

[Commodore]

Just a quick glance tells me that it's not a well crafted list. Bill Clinton should be included. Britney Spears, not so much.

Yeah Britney Spears is an odd one. Really, anyone on that list who was eligible for military service after conscription in the US was ended can't be labelled as one who dodged military service since there was no obligation for them to serve. That's the cool thing about having a volunteer military, it's a choice not an obligation that people try to shirk.

 

[JollyRoger]

There is a distinct difference between a draft dodger and a chickenhawk, although one can be both.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Wait? Nuclear warheads. Given.

All female crew? Syncing! Oh no!

Mixed genders? Complications of sexual attraction. Oh no!

All male crew?

Misery loves company, but what it really loves is knowing someone else is even more miserable than you. Multiply that by 120 guys stuck in a submarine and you get some idea what makes it hard to survive. If I call you a name, and it makes you mad, you are guaranteed to hear it from 120 guys in the next twelve hours. Some will wake you up just for the opportunity. If saying something crude about your wife upsets you, you either need to hide it well or get over it. If there is any opening that leads under your skin it will be found, and continuously exploited for as long as it works.

120 guys deliberately trying to get on one another's nerves, 24-7. Oh, no problem there.

 

[Commodore]

There is a distinct difference between a draft dodger and a chickenhawk, although one can be both.

True, but I wouldn't have wanted to serve with any of these chickenhawks anyway. People like that tend to make poor soldiers. I also dislike the logic that if someone says they support a war, then they are a hypocrite of they never served. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier. In fact, a vast majority of people aren't in my opinion, and that's not a bad thing at all. That doesn't mean they can't still "believe in the cause" so to speak.