Chieftain: Huge Map: every AI possible

[GamezRule]

I would let the cities riot for a while, since I sell all the improvements in conquered cities and use them as farms. Also, farms are more productive when rioting, since they don't starve, so you can possibly gain an extra specialist or 2 as long as it stay's rioting.

 

[Raliuven]

I would let the cities riot for a while, since I sell all the improvements in conquered cities and use them as farms. Also, farms are more productive when rioting, since they don't starve, so you can possibly gain an extra specialist or 2 as long as it stay's rioting.

No can do - the cities fall within my productive area so I want to build them up, not tear them down. So I'm going to keep those buildings. I just need to get the population under control long enough to finishing the If they were just farms, I wouldn't even care.

My point being that in Monarchy, MPs could quell some of the unhappy population (what I called war weariness). In republic/democracy, that is not option. Since I am not going to run down every island the AI has populated, I will also need to control this unhappiness if I ever go to war with them (or they against me).

But either way, I'm still not building a temple.

 

[MysteryX]

I don't know that the Entertainment slider is always going to be more cost-efficient than a Temple when it comes to happiness. I just looked back at one saved game where I was in a Democracy. I had 25 cities, so the cost of Temples in those cities is running 25 gold per turn. Adjusting the Entertainment slider to 10%, I am now paying 78 gold per turn, and that's giving me 3 happy faces in most cities, but only 2 in some (though 5 in one of my wealthiest cities).

 

[GamezRule]

The slider doesn't require filling up production slots. There will be time on regent and above when you need the units, and won't be able to spare the production. It will keep you stronger in the long run. Also, if you ever read Arathorn's Sid Always War, he built temples and cathedrals and won the game, they have a time and a place, just most times you won't be able to use them.

 

[CommandoBob]

In a republic/democracy, you pretty much need to increase the overall luxury rate for a few bad apples. I have several newly occupied cities that are paralyzed at the moment because of this. This is particulary troublesome when you are invading other continents/islands and you don't have a harbor to connect back to your homeland right away.

Why not hire specialists instead?

I'm not concerned about a few bad apples, except maybe in my most productive cities. In all the others, if they are cranky then someone becomes a geek. I want to keep my luxury rate low so that my science rate can be high.

I also do not build large cities, generally. Once they grow to size 12, they stay there. That also make happiness easier to manage.

 

[Elephantium]

There's a time and a place for all three techniques -- slider, temples, and clowns -- I think a lot of the "Grr, temples BAD, slider GOOD!" noise comes from a backlash against an over-reliance on temples. Newbies tend to build a lot of them, even when they're a complete waste.

And re: clowns ... it's generally better to avoid using them because of the production they can give you. Obviously, that doesn't apply in the corrupt margins of a larger empire, but like I said, all three techniques have their place

 

[GamezRule]

I would rather have the taxman or beakerhead then an entertainer, if you are having happiness issues, that entertainer probably can't trigger WLTKD anyway. Besides, civil engineers can help towards improvements, anyway.

 

[Raliuven]

I would rather have the taxman or beakerhead then an entertainer, if you are having happiness issues, that entertainer probably can't trigger WLTKD anyway. Besides, civil engineers can help towards improvements, anyway.

Agreed. In my example, I'm playing monarch difficulty, I'm a republic and I had just trounced several viking cities in the 7-9 size range. I had no harbor to start and had to complete some road connections (by grabbing more territory, of course) so that my luxuries could carry through to the afflicted cities.

The interesting thing is that in the rounds leading up to getting everyting corrected, in a size 6 city, I had to put 5 people as entertainers to keep one worker happy. That seemed pretty drastic to me - and stressed the importance of rushing that harbor ASAP. So, instead of raising my luxury bar from 0%-50% for that one city, and laking any MP power, I just turned them all into taxmen and let them starve.

Once everything was hooked up, they were happy as could be. But I lost several valuable citizens during the starvation period. In republic, there just seems to be no other choice.

It should be noted that I have been a dedicated monarchy player for some time. I have only recently tried my hand with republic, so no doubt these problems are just growing pains. I just wasn't ready for it.

I'm still not building any temples - which is not the same as saying that I would NEVER build one. They just seem to have a very limited used. Generally if you think 'wow, this place could use a temple', there is likely to be a better way to deal with the problem - with the execption of grabbing a cheap/quick cultural expansion.

I also agree with Elephantium - clowns are pure evil. Perhaps necessary evils, but evil nonetheless. But at least I can fire them at will.

 

[Elephantium]

I would rather have the taxman or beakerhead then an entertainer, if you are having happiness issues, that entertainer probably can't trigger WLTKD anyway. Besides, civil engineers can help towards improvements, anyway.

Ah, but sometimes the clown *does* trigger WLTKD. And sometimes the city is on the edge so it's either riots or a clown.

And that's the point -- don't limit yourself to *only* clowns, or *only* beakerheads, or *only* temples ... your empire will run more smoothly if you use a mix.

 

[Elephantium]

I also agree with Elephantium - clowns are pure evil. Perhaps necessary evils, but evil nonetheless. But at least I can fire them at will.

... out of a cannon?

 

[ChaosArbiter]

First off I played my own game from 1390 (i.e. sans any changes) and used your four posts (#2-4) to continue play. I took it to 1550 AD when I felt things were getting out of hand for me. But what I have learned by doing this has made the game much more meaningful.

Erm ... anyway. I did take a short look at the save and didn't see anything that looked glaringly out of place. Was there something particular you wanted advice on? I do think that you've pretty much hit a wall of sorts - from here on, you are probably going to have to use the pointy stick to continue expanding.

 

[LivingDog]

This list is a reply to the comments above:

1. can one save, then sell buildings to see the change. if positive, then keep the change, if not re-load the save and start over.
   ...
2. SPECIALISTS?? you guys talk like your walking through the streets and greet everyone you meet. "Hey there Bob, wanna buy my Temple? Only 200 G!" "No thanks there Ted, me and the wife are going to throw a party and watch a clown." !
   ...
3. Elephantium said: "There's a time and a place for all three techniques -- ..." I think that's the essence of this game - there is no pat set standard way to run things.
   ...
4. ChaosArbiter said: "I did take a short look at the save and didn't see anything that looked glaringly out of place. Was there something particular you wanted advice on? I do think that you've pretty much hit a wall of sorts ..."
   • me: YEAH FOR ME DAY! No advice needed, I just decided to stop there and absorb what all transpired. But when I went back it came back to me "...ohhh, I'm absorbing everyone touching my borders!" LOL!
   ...
5. ChaosArbiter said: " ... - from here on, you are probably going to have to use the pointy stick to continue expanding. "
   • me: well, I came here to chew bubble gum and kick butt, and I am all out of bubble gum. (Rowdy Rod Piper in "THEY LIVE"). Actually I broke through the Aztec territory in 1750 AD. And England is rapidly shrinking so much that I bought "Chivalry" for my Iron (since I don't have a source of Saltpeter ... the stinking Iroquois want Chemistry - yeah, so they can conquer me!) Anyway, the Cultural War I declared on the Aztecs and England is working. See the attached SAV. England is about to fall, the Aztecs don't know they are dead yet. Look to the cities in the NE (yes, NE) and you will see that they are about to be overturned "soon."

I tried my Advisors windows and I can't firgure out how to:

• break a trade agreement
  ...
• make a military alliance?

When i click on a worker and ask for a deal, there is no "Military Alliance" option... and of course there is no "break trade deal" option. So that's where I am at now.

I ask this b/c my plan was to ally with England against the Aztecs. Those two are weak and the war would have made them weaker still - thus easy prey for me to do a double clean up in the end.

N.B.: I only use War when I *know* I have a victory. hec, why waste people and effort having to rebuild when you can absorb the cities into your collective?


thx again guys!

 

[ChaosArbiter]

SPECIALISTS?? you guys talk like your walking through the streets and greet everyone you meet. "Hey there Bob, wanna buy my Temple? Only 200 G!" "No thanks there Ted, me and the wife are going to throw a party and watch a clown." !

Hey, Specialists are awesome, especially in mostly/almost-entirely corrupt cities, since the Commerce/Beakers produced aren't affected by Corruption.

break a trade agreement

There are two ways - the first is manual, the second automatic. To do it manually, you have to talk to the civ in question and propose a Deal, then click the 'Active' button in the bottom-center. You can then renegotiate or simply cancel any ongoing deal.

To do it automatically, either cut off the connection between your capital and theirs to break the trade route (if you're trading a resource), or declare War (which breaks pretty much every deal and is what I did against the Aztecs).

HOWEVER, all Agreements of any type have a 20-turn minimum - break a deal for *ANY* reason before the 20 turns are up and you've suffered a Reputation hit. This includes factors beyond your control, so if you're supplying a resource to someone across the map, and his capital is razed and the new capital doesn't have trade network access to your capital, it's still your fault. Similarly, if you have an alliance with Nation A against Nation B and you sign a peace deal with Nation B before the 20 turns are up (or before Nation A signs one ...) you'll take a hit.

make a military alliance?
When i click on a worker and ask for a deal, there is no "Military Alliance" option... and of course there is no "break trade deal" option. So that's where I am at now.

*Looks back at post #2*
Hmm ... by any chance, have you not gotten around to forming Embassies with your would-be Ally yet?

 

[LivingDog]

Hey, Specialists are awesome, especially in mostly/almost-entirely corrupt cities, since the Commerce/Beakers produced aren't affected by Corruption.

I should have mentioned that the only thing I know about them is that they show up all of a sudden and poof you get to choose a benefit.

E.g. recently, Einstein showed up in Washington (my capital) and I added him to the city to double scientific output.

There are two ways - the first is manual, the second automatic. To do it manually, you have to talk to the civ in question and propose a Deal, then click the 'Active' button in the bottom-center. You can then renegotiate or simply cancel any ongoing deal.
...

I renegotiated the Gems deal with Japan - thank you very much sir -

Old Agreement-----Japan gets my Gems-----I get 5gpt

New Agreement:::Japan gets my Gems:::I got 80 Lump + 19 gpt



Reputation Shmeputation... I look cute in my Cultural War outfit!
them -> me ->

I did a SAV at 1800 just in case anyone wants to see my Cultural War progress. I also opened it with CivAssist II and was in awe of what I don't see that is going on in the map.

Most Nations are weak, but now I can see which ones I have to watch out for... oh, and a Military War with the Iroquois may be inevitable since they have the Saltpeter I desperately need to upgrade my military.

Here's a thought, give them Chemistry, I get Saltpeter, make weapons with their name on it "Send to Iroquois" - and

WIPE THEM OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH!!!
​

"Whaddya' think sirs?"
-Joel Hodgson, MST3K, any episode

thx CA!

 

[Bartleby]

I should have mentioned that the only thing I know about them is that they show up all of a sudden and poof you get to choose a benefit.

E.g. recently, Einstein showed up in Washington (my capital) and I added him to the city to double scientific output.

Einstein is not a specialist, he's an Scientific Great Leader (SGL). These guys can rush Great Wonders (The "double sceintific output" doesn't work...this is a bug in the game).

The specialists that ChaosArbiter is talking about are the citizens that you turn into entertainers/taxmen/scientists[/civil engineer/policeman]. A good rule of thumb for specialists is that if you don't need an entertainer to stop a riot you should make a taxman or a scientist depending on whether you need more money or more research.

 

[CommandoBob]

The specialists that ChaosArbiter is talking about are the citizens that you turn into entertainers/taxmen/scientists[/civil engineer/policeman]. A good rule of thumb for specialists is that if you don't need an entertainer to stop a riot you should make a taxman or a scientist depending on whether you need more money or more research.

This is the core concept of science farms.

And what do science farms do? A quick example.

Your next tech costs 1000 beakers. With science at 100% your commerce and science buildings make 200 beakers per turn. And thus it will take five turns to learn it. If you can hire 17 science specialists (geeks) in your cities, they will produce 51 beakers per turn (3 beakers per geek). Now, instead of 200 bpt you have 251 bpt and you learn the new tech in 4, not 5 turns.

After you hire the geeks you decide to drop your science to 0%. Now you get no beakers from commerce and libraries/universities. Zero. Nada. However, the geeks you hire are not affected by the science slider. Whether at 0% or 100%, they still produce 3 bpt each. These 17 geeks will learn your next tech in 20 turns.

Now if you could hire 85 geeks, which becomes 255 bpt, this tech could be learned in 4 turns.

So science specailists are powerful. How do you hire 85 of them?

Create science farms. These are cities that are very corrupt. They net 1 shield per turn for every 10 shields they produce and they don't net 2 spt until they bring in 11 shields. These are cities far away from your capital. It takes them 10 turns to build a worker and 30 turns to build a settler. Generally they have few improvements, except maybe an aqueduct.

Since these cities are so corrupt and non-productive, don't try to make them build anything, because they cannot build anything fast unless it is rushed and that will cost you gold or population, depending upon your government type. Set them to wealth or artillery. (Artillery units are not enhanced by barracks; there are no Veteran or Regular or Elite catapults; they are safe build in the Geek Havens.) Irrigate everything around these cities. Then, once the city cannot grow any larger, rearrange the citizens to where each city can hire some geeks and not starve. Flood plains help a whole lot with this, too. So do rails. Grassland is better than plains for grassland gives 2 food per turn and plains only 1.

On a grassland site, a science farm seem to average 3 geeks at size 6.

And, since most of the population are specialists, they are not affected greatly by happiness issues, such as luxuries and war weariness. If they get cranky, hire a geek early. It slows down their growth some, nothing more.

 

[LivingDog]

I just read how to create a Specialist. I went to my SAV of 1800 (see my previous post in this thread) and went to the City Display and clicked on a square. Supposedly a citizen will cycle through the different types: Entertainer, Scientist, Tax Collector (others with advances). However, in the three cities I tried, only the Entertainer appeared. What gives? Do I need to up my Research Budget or something??

-thx in advance

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Click the Specialist and he'll change.

 

[GamezRule]

Also, only clowns, taxmen and scientists are available at the beginning, and police and civil engineers come with Nationalism and Replaceable parts, respectively.

 

[LivingDog]

ChaosArbiter: "click the stupid clown foo!"

me: D'OH!
Oh, also - about the "CH" being obvious - I was padding the joke. (I knew it meant Catholic cHurch.)

[EDIT]: also, I still don't see how to get embassies. I open the Foreign Advisor and left- and right-click on the leaders but either the relations are displayed or the only Civilopedia opens up, respevtively.

==

GamezRule: " ... police and civil engineers come ... " (later)

me: yeah, " ... a citizen will cycle through the different types: Entertainer, Scientist, Tax Collector (others with advances)."

==

[EDIT]: CommandoBob: " ... create science farms..."

me: I finally understood what you said. I will work on it. One question though - should my science farms be near my borders or in my "back country?" I am anticipating a war with the Iroquois and figure they should be away from the borders b/c they will fall very fast. So far all my small cities are the ones I am using to absorb the AI into my territory.

As always, thx guys!,