CHINA: Anti-secession law would authorize military action against Taiwan

[Ramius75]

No. 84% of the population are native Taiwanese. The Han Chinese are only 14%. I will defer to any Taiwanese or others with credible information, but that is my understanding from a Taiwanese college friend of some years ago.

Dont know where u got this number but i guess for the Han chinese, u mean the Chinese Mainlander who only moved into Taiwan with Ching kia shek's retreat.

Also the Han chinese actually make up 98% of the population in Taiwan where else the indigenious ppl only make 2%.

But the principle at issue is that any nation/people with the power to obtain or keep its independence has the "right" to be independent. ("Right" in quotation marks because, if it is a matter of power, the existence of the right is largely irrelevant.) The flip side of that is that any nation/people without the power do not get to be sovereign if someone bigger does not want them to be and is willing to do something about it. That is a positivist approach. The normative approach is to ask what should be. Ideally, our normative answer should guide what we do or permit to be done.

Yes, taiwan can secede if it can fight back a chinese invasion and also sign a treaty with china to secure its status. Else with China lingering in its backyard in ur point of view, taiwan will always be under the constant threat of "reunification" by China. There is no other way.

 

[Ramius75]

The Taiwanese president and 60% of the Taiwanese people beg to differ.

Thats where ur wrong again.

in 2004, the so called "proindepedence" leader Chensuibian try to sway the election in his favour by calling taiwan 1st referendum in the name of democracy. The subject of the referendum is already a joke where it called for "Iif Taiwan should arm itself with additional defensive weapons if China does not withdraw its missiles and if Taiwan should continue to negotiate with China."

This may seems like a no brainer, but then although Chen won the election by a slim margin by getting a shot in the stomach, he also got a slap in the face where the so called "referendum" got less than 50% particpation even thou the referendum is side by side the presidential election.

This prove that although some ppl may vote for Chen, they do not agreed with him straining the relationship with China and buy weapons that may defend themselves.

Nonetheless, Chen and his party still decided to go ahead with the arm deal with USA worth 18 billions even after the referendum is a failure where ppl voted it out. Talk about democracy and respect of human rights.

In the Dec 2004 legilative election, the pro independence green party once again failed to get the majority and infact suffer a major defeat with the pan blue winning 114 seats where the green only manage to garner 101.

In Feb 2005, Chen once again slap himself in the face and called a traitor to the pro indepence cause by the ex president Llee Denghui, when Chen met with pan blue candidate James song and reached ten point agreement with him. And that is never to change the Name of Republic of China and change the constitution in his remaining 3 years term.

 

[Jeff Yu]

No, Taiwan was only part of China during the Qing dynasty wich was Manchurian, so i could say that China belongs to Manchurians and not Chinese. and US belongs to England and the native peoples. Taiwan is no exception in those cases.

Just because the ruling dynasty isn't ethnically Chinese doesn't mean the country isn't China. They ruled the country as China, after all, not Greater Manchuria. The United Kingdom's current ruling family has actually been German since King George, they came from the House of Saxe-Gothburg, and changed their name to House of Windsor only in World War I. Does that mean that England is actually Greater Germany?

Oh, and for anyone else who thinks Taiwan isn't part of China, allow me to quote:

.Both the mainland and Taiwan areas are parts of Chinese territory. Helping to bring about national unification should be the common responsibility of all Chinese people.

Source? The Guidelines for National Unification, published by...........Taiwan's legislature! It was passed by Taiwan's legislature in 1991. Read it yourself if you don't believe me.
http://www.mac.gov.tw/english/english/macpolicy/gnueng.htm

The opposition to independence is strong enough that Chen Shui-bian has had to abandon his independence policy and promise not to abolish the national unification guidelines.

 

[Jeff Yu]

No. 84% of the population are native Taiwanese. The Han Chinese are only 14%. I will defer to any Taiwanese or others with credible information, but that is my understanding from a Taiwanese college friend of some years ago.

Errr........no. The native Taiwanese are Polynesian-like aborigines who make up only 2% of the population or so. The rest of the population are Han Chinese. The 14% you refer to are "mainlanders", ie the ones that fled with the KMT to Taiwan in 1949.

Here's a graphic of the demographics breakdown, from the BBC.

 

[Uiler]

Hakka Chinese (who form the majority of the population on Taiwan) is considered a Southern Chinese dialect like Fujian, Cantonese and Shanghainese, or at least according to all those webpages I was reading when I was investigating Cantonese vs. Mandarin. Linguistically, culturally, historically and ethically, they are as Chinese as Cantonese are (most Cantonese didn't speak Mandarin until after the Communists came to power BTW so the fact that Taiwanese spoke Hakka Chinese rather than Mandarin doesn't really mean anything. Also Guangdong was usually one of the first places to separate from the rest of the empire and one of the last to be reunited. Fujian was probably the only province with a worse record. No-one is arguing that Guangdong or Fujian aren't Chinese). Aboriginal Taiwanese form about 2% of the population. The point is Hakka Chinese are no more "non-Chinese" than Guangdong or Fujian.

 

[airrahul]

Just thought this article on the Economist might shed some light on teh issue:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3535195 (You may need a membership or subscription to view it)

Here's the graph from the article:

 

[Ramius75]

Just thought this article on the Economist might shed some light on teh issue:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3535195 (You may need a membership or subscription to view it)

Here's the graph from the article:

i will have to agreed with this chart too, that is as the population gets "younger" when the next generation is taking over, they are having less attachment to the mainland China, the CPC is worry about this trend too, thats why u see them making more effort now.

The democratic progressive party is very good at manipulating the mind of the people. When they took over the adminitration in taiwan, the first thing they do is to split the taiwan ppl into mainlander and taiwanese, using nationalism of the youth and then slowly divide the nation. others steps they are doing is to give more pride to the taiwan indentity and then revamp the educational system too.

Chen also tries to change the gov system into allowing Hakka (more proindepedence) language into a officail langauge. That is letting the ppl learning dialect instead of official Mandarin. This is to further differential taiwanese with mainlander. another thing is to change the history textbook and that is to make those pre 1949 history into China history and those after into taiwanese history. While doing this, they are teaching history in backward where taiwanese will be taught 1st and then followed by China's history.

Chen's plan is to progressively independence, and that is to slowly erode the base of the mainlander and also undermine them. using the youth who are also more vocal as his pawn. But of coz, he just gave them a slap in the face recently, by backtracking in his words just a few days before China vote for the anti sucesssion law.

What is his plan? its anybody guess, but even thou Chen cannot speak well. he is a very shrewd politician, maybe more than Leetenghui.

 

[stratego]

That graph can easily be manipulated.

Here's the original graph before Chen Shui Bien messed with the data.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Chen also tries to change the gov system into allowing Hakka (more proindepedence) language into a officail langauge. That is letting the ppl learning dialect instead of official Mandarin.

I think you mean Hokkien ( 福建 ). The Hakkas ( 客家 ) are actually pro-KMT because they feel marginalized by those pro-independence people trying to promote the Taiwanese dialect over all the others. Hakkas speak the Hakka language, they were exiles from Northern China who settled in southern China. Taiwanese is a dialect of Hoklo or Hokkien (note the spelling difference from Hakka), which originates in Fujian and is probably the most spoken of the Chinese dialects in Southeast Asia (spoken by overseas Chinese in Indonesia, Singapore, and Phillipines)

 

[blindside]

The Taiwanese president and 60% of the Taiwanese people beg to differ.

In that sense a pretty large percentage of Palestinians don't want to be part of Israel and plenty of Irish don't want to be part of Britain and plenty of Basque don't want to be part of Spain.

 

[Jeff Yu]

From the public opinion polls, it seems like the majority of Taiwanese don't know what they want.

]

 

[Ramius75]

I think you mean Hokkien ( 福建 ). The Hakkas ( 客家 ) are actually pro-KMT because they feel marginalized by those pro-independence people trying to promote the Taiwanese dialect over all the others. Hakkas speak the Hakka language, they were exiles from Northern China who settled in southern China. Taiwanese is a dialect of Hoklo or Hokkien (note the spelling difference from Hakka), which originates in Fujian and is probably the most spoken of the Chinese dialects in Southeast Asia (spoken by overseas Chinese in Indonesia, Singapore, and Phillipines)

I tot Hakka are mostly in the southern part of taiwan and they are the main supported of the DPP since its strong hold is in the south, mainly Tainan and Kuoshiong.

yeah, im aware that the DPP is promoting taiwanese language which is largely shun by the kuomingtan who is promoting mandarain instead. So its like moving backward with the DPP and pure chaos in the educational system. But i tot taiwanese language is a mixture of hokkien and hakka (which i maybe wrong). Anyway, then the DPP is slapping the hakka in the face too then.

 

[Uiler]

I doubt China seriously intends to invade Taiwan. The military is only there to prevent Taiwan from declaring independence. China's plan to reunite Taiwan is through economic integration and promoting "Han unity". China is already Taiwan's biggest export market, overtaking the US. Basically Taiwan's economy is becoming increasingly dependent on mainland China. Taiwan's GDP is $528.6 billion. China's GDP is $6.449 trillion. The idea is to make Taiwan economically dependent on China, emphasing cultural ties and eventually make the people of Taiwan *want* to become part of China to take part in the glorious Han destiny (and more importantly economic benefits).

Also, if China increases in power while the US decreases in power there will be a natural inclination to swing towards the country which is on the rise and away from the country that is on the fall.

I believe this is the mainland's plan.

 

[Uiler]

According to the CIA webpage, 84% are Taiwanese Chinese (including Hakka) and 14% are mainland Chinese. But Hakka and Hokkien are both Han Chinese.

 

[amadeus]

I believe the world should go back to politics of the 12 century... before slavery and colonization.

No slavery and colonization before the 16th-17th centuries? Come on!

What do you call the Israelites? The people under the boot of the Roman empire? Heck, look at the people living in England or France in the early millenium. They were some warlord's slaves, toiling away and dying at 26.

Heck, you're an African in the UK. You'd probably be executed for being a witch or something!

 

[Ramius75]

I doubt China seriously intends to invade Taiwan. The military is only there to prevent Taiwan from declaring independence. China's plan to reunite Taiwan is through economic integration and promoting "Han unity". China is already Taiwan's biggest export market, overtaking the US. Basically Taiwan's economy is becoming increasingly dependent on mainland China. Taiwan's GDP is $528.6 billion. China's GDP is $6.449 trillion. The idea is to make Taiwan economically dependent on China, emphasing cultural ties and eventually make the people of Taiwan *want* to become part of China to take part in the glorious Han destiny (and more importantly economic benefits).

Also, if China increases in power while the US decreases in power there will be a natural inclination to swing towards the country which is on the rise and away from the country that is on the fall.

I believe this is the mainland's plan.

same, thats what im thinking too, also one of China's hope is for a pro China candidate to win the election. Mainlt those on the table now, is MaYingJiu and Kuomintan WangjingPing. This 2 is mostly pro China, while Wang is more low profile, Ma is known for critiszing China too, but then China will still prefer him As we all knows how politics work.

What China is worry about is the support of Japan and USA in intervening in the affair, without these 2 countries, the proindependence parties in taiwan know they wont have a chance. and therefore using these 2 countries as their backup while im also firmly believe that both USA and Japan do not want to see Taiwan unification with China.

Some right wing japanese parties are known to travel all the way to taiwan and join in the proindependence march but when ask if Diaoyutai island belongs to taiwan, they will usualy cannot answer back. Also Leetenghui (extaiwan president) did said that the Diaoyutai island belongs to Japan (a country where he is educated and broughtup) much to the dismay of the chinese of coz.

 

[Uiler]

One has to wonder how much the US and Japanese support of Taiwan is really to do with "freedom" and how much of it is to do with using Taiwan as a powerplay against China. Conflict (this is not exactly war) through third-party proxies was extremely common during the Cold War. After all, didn't the US support Taiwan against China even during the years of the brutal KMT military dictatorship? I get the feeling that in recent years, "democracy" has become a stalking horse for much less selfless geopolitical reasons, much like religion has been used as an excuse for countless conflicts in the past when the real reason was dispute over land and natural resources or the balance of power.

This has led to various myths, such as that Hong Kong used to be a democracy before China took over. This was patently untrue. Throughout the British occupation of Hong Kong there was very little democracy. It was only in the last couple of years before the handover that any democratic procedures was put in place. Before that the Chinese inhabitants of Hong Kong had no say about how the colony was run. The cynical could say that democracy was established just before the handover simply so that the Western media could blast the Chinese for "destroying the democratic instuitions of Hong Kong" when these were barely put in place before the hand-over. There is now a common image amongst Westerners that prior to the handover, HK was a haven of democracy and freedom in Asia where HK was really about as democratic as well, China.
The point is, I doubt the sincerity of many of the criticisms of China from foreigners. China has many faults but it seems to me that there is a large amount of a self-serving nature of the criticisms rather than a genuine concern. I accept the criticisms of left-wing groups with good grace as I know that they really are genuinely concerned with the well-being of the people. But right-wing groups, it's more of a political powerplay than any genuine concern. It's fake.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I see a lot of this fake concern in criticism of the US as well.

same, thats what im thinking too, also one of China's hope is for a pro China candidate to win the election. Mainlt those on the table now, is MaYingJiu and Kuomintan WangjingPing. This 2 is mostly pro China, while Wang is more low profile, Ma is known for critiszing China too, but then China will still prefer him As we all knows how politics work.

What China is worry about is the support of Japan and USA in intervening in the affair, without these 2 countries, the proindependence parties in taiwan know they wont have a chance. and therefore using these 2 countries as their backup while im also firmly believe that both USA and Japan do not want to see Taiwan unification with China.

Some right wing japanese parties are known to travel all the way to taiwan and join in the proindependence march but when ask if Diaoyutai island belongs to taiwan, they will usualy cannot answer back. Also Leetenghui (extaiwan president) did said that the Diaoyutai island belongs to Japan (a country where he is educated and broughtup) much to the dismay of the chinese of coz.

 

[Ramius75]

One has to wonder how much the US and Japanese support of Taiwan is really to do with "freedom" and how much of it is to do with using Taiwan as a powerplay against China. Conflict (this is not exactly war) through third-party proxies was extremely common during the Cold War. After all, didn't the US support Taiwan against China even during the years of the brutal KMT military dictatorship? I get the feeling that in recent years, "democracy" has become a stalking horse for much less selfless geopolitical reasons, much like religion has been used as an excuse for countless conflicts in the past when the real reason was dispute over land and natural resources or the balance of power.

This has led to various myths, such as that Hong Kong used to be a democracy before China took over. This was patently untrue. Throughout the British occupation of Hong Kong there was very little democracy. It was only in the last couple of years before the handover that any democratic procedures was put in place. Before that the Chinese inhabitants of Hong Kong had no say about how the colony was run. The cynical could say that democracy was established just before the handover simply so that the Western media could blast the Chinese for "destroying the democratic instuitions of Hong Kong" when these were barely put in place before the hand-over. There is now a common image amongst Westerners that prior to the handover, HK was a haven of democracy and freedom in Asia where HK was really about as democratic as well, China.
The point is, I doubt the sincerity of many of the criticisms of China from foreigners. China has many faults but it seems to me that there is a large amount of a self-serving nature of the criticisms rather than a genuine concern. I accept the criticisms of left-wing groups with good grace as I know that they really are genuinely concerned with the well-being of the people. But right-wing groups, it's more of a political powerplay than any genuine concern. It's fake.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I see a lot of this fake concern in criticism of the US as well.

yes, totally agreed, i even argue this with a pro democratic hongkonger too. The youth in hongkong always tot that China was taking away their freedom, but where is their freedom prior to handling over to CPC ?? Did the HKers Have the choice to vote for the Viceroy ??did they vote for Chris patten ? No they didnt. And there are also talks that the economy of HK is damaged by the handover which is totally untrue too. Prior to the handover, money was siphon from the HK coffers to the UK while the Hkers are actually paying for the the administration. The bristish took what they can and then using the money left to build a brand new airport prior to the handover so that the money will not be left.

Its a coincidence that the asia currency crisis hits asia just shortly after the handover and the real estate bubble of HK crashed. During this period, the currecy of most asia economy crashed all except one, China who keep its Yuan peg to the US currency, they can choose to devalue the money just like malaysia to keep its economy more competative but they didnt. This thus provided a stop the the end of the currency slide and stopped the process as it cannot spread to China.

The economy of HK is getting better under the 1 country 2 system kaw where China took much care of HK and invest much in the country in reverse role. The tourist market is now flooded with mainlander and even a Disney park is to be completed in HK very soon. Also with the HK access to the China market it now has one of the busiest port in the world.

 

[luiz]

Thats where ur wrong again.

in 2004, the so called "proindepedence" leader Chensuibian try to sway the election in his favour by calling taiwan 1st referendum in the name of democracy. The subject of the referendum is already a joke where it called for "Iif Taiwan should arm itself with additional defensive weapons if China does not withdraw its missiles and if Taiwan should continue to negotiate with China."

This may seems like a no brainer, but then although Chen won the election by a slim margin by getting a shot in the stomach, he also got a slap in the face where the so called "referendum" got less than 50% particpation even thou the referendum is side by side the presidential election.

This prove that although some ppl may vote for Chen, they do not agreed with him straining the relationship with China and buy weapons that may defend themselves.

Nonetheless, Chen and his party still decided to go ahead with the arm deal with USA worth 18 billions even after the referendum is a failure where ppl voted it out. Talk about democracy and respect of human rights.

In the Dec 2004 legilative election, the pro independence green party once again failed to get the majority and infact suffer a major defeat with the pan blue winning 114 seats where the green only manage to garner 101.

In Feb 2005, Chen once again slap himself in the face and called a traitor to the pro indepence cause by the ex president Llee Denghui, when Chen met with pan blue candidate James song and reached ten point agreement with him. And that is never to change the Name of Republic of China and change the constitution in his remaining 3 years term.

This is what I am talking about:

Opinion polls conducted by Taiwan Mainland Affairs Council showed a steady trend in increasing fraction of residents identifying themselves as Taiwanese only. According to one opinion poll conducted in Feb 2000, 45% of Taiwan residents identify themselves to be Taiwanese only, 39.4% identify themselves to be both Taiwanese and Chinese, and 13.9% identify themselves to be Chinese only. 1 (http://www.mac.gov.tw/big5/mlpolicy/pos/8903/po8903ch.htm) In October 2004, just after president Chen's speech on Taiwan's national day, one poll revealed that over 60% of Taiwan's residents identify themselves as Taiwanese only. Those who would call themselves both Taiwanese and Chinese dropped to below 20%, but roughly the same number still identify themselves as Chinese only. That number corresponds numerically to the percentage of people that migrated from China at the end of the Civil War in 1949.

link

 

[Jeff Yu]

Actually, if you look at the past decade, position between "Taiwanese" and "Both Chinese and Taiwanese" is fluctuating from year to year. The position between those two haven't really changed for the last five years. It seems wrote that on Wikipedia did some selective picking and choosing of statistics.

台灣人 (green) = Taiwanese
台灣人也是中國人 (red) = both Chinese and Taiwanese
中國人 (blue) = Chinese