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Churchill would actually be better for that.

Churchill is a Washington; a mediocre at best figure who history reveres simply because he was there for it. He brought an almost unthinking stubborn aggressiveness and nothing else as a figurehead for Britain in World War II.....then we voted him right the hell out because he was a pain in the a***!

What actual leadership can be attributed to the man, and the man alone? Any we manage to find certainly doesn't stack up next to worthier leaders from all over the globe.

There's pretty much no chance of being able to play the 'well known' card for Churchill when Civ has already been shipping with the likes of Elizabeth, so there's no reason not to play someone like Henry V, an actual statesman and leader, instead of the constantly inebriated symbol of only five years.
 
Iván de España;8928631 said:
-Justinian (CivIV). He was considered Roman Emperor by his people and his neighbours and conquered Northern Africa and Italy, so he recovered the city of Rome.

For what it is worth, he was also a Latin speaker rather than a Greek (though the distinction shouldn't be forced, as many late antique Romans spoke both). His empire differed from Constantine the Great's in not including the semi-barbaric impoverished backwaters of Gaul, Britain and non-Mediterranean Spain ... not really a big deal.
 
Henry V could have a Longbow unique unit too, as the way leaders work now.
 
I would like that the expansions of Civ V were about periods or areas, like CivV: Ancient Times or CivV:Far East. They could include many civilizations and many scenarios. The programmers can do many expansions of Civ V and no more parts of the Civ saga, that is, I don’t want CivVI and CivVII. Besides, I would like less European civilizations and more civilizations of all the world, mainly Africans, that were important in History although we don’t know.

Anyway, my next 18 civilizations and each 3 leaders for the expansions are:

19) Mongolia (CivI-IV)
-Genghis Khan (CivI-IV)
-Kublai Khan (CivIV)
-Ögodei Khan. As sucessor of Genghis, he conquered huge territories in China, Central Asia and Eastern Europe.

20) Assyria. It was an Empire of the area of Syria, Irak, Turkey, Lebanon, Palestine and Israel during the 19th-7th centuries, destroyed by Babylonians and Persians.
-Ashurbanipal, also known as Sardanapalus. He developed the Assyrian art and literature and conquered the Empire of Elam.
-Tiglath-Pileser III. He founded the Neo-Assyrian Empire and conquered Hatti territory, Persian territory, Philistia and Israel.
-Sargon II. He conquered Samaria and Babylon and defeated the armies of Urartu, Elam, Egypt and Philistia.

21) Carthage (CivII-IV)
-Hannibal (CivII-IV)
-Hanno the Great. He conquered territories in Africa, was enemy of the Barcid family, which Hannibal was member of, and so belonged to the pro-Roman faction of the Carthaginian Senate.
-Mago I. He was the King of Carthage and, in his time, this phoenician colony became preeminent in Western Mediterranean economically and politically.

22) Sioux (CivII and more or less CivIV)
-Sitting Bull, also known as Tatanka Iyotanke (CivIII-IV)
-Tecumseh. He leaded a tribal confederacy against the US and helped the Bristish in the War of 1812.
-Crazy Horse, also known as Tasunka Witko. He was leader of the tribal alliance with Sitting Bull and Red Cloud and participated in the Battle of Little Bighorn.

23) Khmer Empire (CivIV)
-Suryavarman II (CivIV)
-Jayavarman II. He was the founder of the Khmer Empire.
-Indravarman I. He was a builder ruler: irrigation systems, shrines, moats, etc.

24) Mali (CivIV)
-Kankan Musa I (CivIV)
-Sundiata Keita. He founded the Mali Empire and conquered the Ghanan Empire.
-Uli I, also known as Ouli or Ali. He conquered Gambia and lands of gold minery between Senegal and Mali.

25) Songhai Empire. It was an Empire of the area of Niger, Nigeria, Mali, Burkina Fasso and Senegal during the 7th-16th centuries destroyed by the armies of Morocco Sultanate, which were leaded by a Muslim Spaniard.
-Askia Muhammad I, also known as Muhammad Toure. He set up a developed bureaucracy and made his Empire strong in trade and economy.
-Sunni Ali Ber. He conquered the most of the territory of Mali.
-Askia Daoud. He expanded the Empire and defeated the Mossi in battles.

26) Turkey (CivIII-IV)
-Suleiman the Magnificent (CivIV)
-Osman I (CivIII)
-Mehmed II (CivIV)

27) Hatti (CivIII)
-Suppiluliuma I. He conquered the Mittani Kingdom and conquered Egyptian cities.
-Mursili II (CivIII)
-Hattusili I. He united all the Hittite Kingdoms in an Empire.

28) Maya Kingdoms (CivIII-IV)
-Pacal II, also known as K’inich J’anaab Pakal (CivIV)
-Ah Mekat Tutul Xiu. He founded the Mayapan Alliance, which joined the Itza, the Tutul Xiu and the Cocom from 10th century to 12th century.
-K’inich Yak K’uk’ Mo’, also known as Green Quetzal Macaw. He was the first King of Copan and the founder of Yax Kuk Mo dinasty, in which time (5th-9th centuries) knowlodge of maths and astronomy, writing and art was developed.

29) Iroquois Confederacy (CivIII)
-Hiawatha (CivIII)
-The Great Peacemaker, also known as Deganawida. He was a prophet and spiritual leader who founded the Iroquois Confederacy.
-Red Jacket, also known as Sagoyewatha. He negotiated the independence of the Six Nations with G. Washington.

30) Celts (CivII-IV)
-Vercingetorix. Member of the Arverni, he united the Gaul peoples to fight Caesar.
-Viriathus. Member of the Celtici, he leaded the Lusitani and the Celtici to resist against the Romans, who were defeated several times, in Hispania (Spain).
-Boudica (CivII&IV)

31) Vikings (CivII-IV)
-Ragnar Lodbrok (CivII-IV)
-Cnut the Great, also known as Canute, Knut or Cnut Sweynsson (CivII)
-Erik the Red, also known as Eric Thorvaldssen. He colonized Groenland.

32) Majapahit. It was an Empire in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines, and East Timor during 13th-16th centuries, destroyed by a Indonesian Sultanate.
-Hayam Wuruk, also known as Rajasanagara. His reign was the golden age of Majapahit because conquered territories and the Javanese culture was developed.
-Raden Wijaya, also known as Kertarajasa Jayawardhana. He founded the Majapahit Kingdom.
-Tribhuwana Wijayatunggadewi. She conquered neighbour kingdoms in a great expansion.

33) Korea (CivIII-IV)
-Wang Kon (CivIII-IV)
-Sejong the Great. He created the Korean alphabet and developed the Korean science and culture making inventions and writing books.
-Taejo, also known as Yi Seong-gye or Yi Dan. He was the first Korean King of the Joseon Dinasty (14th-20th centuries) and established the capital in Seoul.

34) Kongo. It was a Kingdom of the area of R.Congo, D.R.Congo, and Angola during the 14th-19th centuries, destroyed by Belgium, Portugal and France.
-Nzinga Mbemba, also known as Mbemba a Nzinga Ndo Funsu or Afonso I. He converted his Kingdom to Christianism and estableshed the Catholic Church of Kongo in order to create a unique society. He expanded the Kingdom with Portuguese mercenaries.
-Nkuwu Nzinga, also known as Nzinga a Nkuwu or Joâo I. He developed his economical relations with the Portuguese and adopted the Christianism.
-Lukeni Iua Nimi, also known as Ntinu Nimi a Lukeni. He founded the Kingdom of Kongo.

35) Zimbabwe, also known as Great Zimbabwe and, later, Mutapa or Munhumutapa. It was in the area of Zimbabwe and Mozambique during 13th-18th centuries, ruled by the Shona and destroyed by the Portuguese. This is the real civilization whose capital was Zimbabwe, not the Zulus, whose capital was Ulundi in South Africa.
-Matope. He extended the Mutapa Kingdom into Empire conquering lands of other peoples and developed the trade of minerals and ivory.
-Mututa. He conquered Great Zimbabwe and founded the Mutapa Kingdom.
-Rusvingo. He founded the Kingdom of Zimbabwe.

36) Ghana, also known as Wagadu. It was an Empire of the area of Mauritania, Mali and Senegal during the 8th-13th centuries, annexed into the Mali Empire.
-Dinga Cisse, also known as Majan Dyabe Cisse. He founded this Empire in a political centralization.
-Bassi. He resisted the Berber attacks of the Almoravids.
-Tunka Manin. He was defeated by the Almoravids.

My next civilization would be the Zulu Kingdom, not Zululand because this was the name of the Zulu territory under British rule. I don’t choose the Zulu Kingdom in my 36 civilizations because its duration was so short (1818-1897) and it was so small (30,000 km2 around Ulundi). My 3 leaders would be Shaka, Cethswayo, and Dinizulu.
 
Iván de España;8925128 said:
So, we all agree about Phillip II as one of the Spanish leaders. :)

No.Isabella is a shoo-in, and Philip II would just be another ruler who is just like her.
 
Lady Wu would be interesting, but I would personally prefer one of the Emperors.

Why?

As for Chinese rulers being cruel, I would cautiously say that that sounds like a stereotype, - China was a clearly hierarchical state, where technically the Emperor wielded absolute power. Then again, so were a whole bunch of other states and powerful empires. I would say that the "cruelty" was nothing out of the extraordinary in the pre-modern-modern world.

I don't want to start a flame war over China. :) However, China was, well into the 20th century, an unusually hieararchical country whose ruling class traditionally did everything it could to keep the common people cowed. I repeat that I admire much in Chinese cuture, but not its traditional social attitudes. The only one before Sun Yatsen who tried to change that was Wang Mang, and he failed. I dislike Mao, but even so I give him credit for crushing the old hierarchical system, which featured such things as bondage and the complete subjection of women.
 
For what it is worth, he was also a Latin speaker rather than a Greek (though the distinction shouldn't be forced, as many late antique Romans spoke both). His empire differed from Constantine the Great's in not including the semi-barbaric impoverished backwaters of Gaul, Britain and non-Mediterranean Spain ... not really a big deal.

Gaul was far from being a semi-barbaric, impoverished backwater. Gaul and Spain were the most advanced provinces in the western part of the empire. In fact, some Roman emperors resided in Lugdunum (Lyon).
 
Öjevind Lång;8935884 said:
No.Isabella is a shoo-in, and Philip II would just be another ruler who is just like her.

I don't consider Isabel (Isabella isn't her name, maybe of Italian women) as leader of Spain because she was just Queen of Castille. So, my first Spanish leader is Phillip II (accurate translation of Felipe II) because he was the first one considered by himself as King of Spain with the non-official title Rex Hispaniarum, that means "King of the Spains", and ruled in all the Spanish Kingdoms, since he got Portugal, considered Spanish Kingdom in this time (and now by the Iberists).
 
Iván de España;8935964 said:
I don't consider Isabel (Isabella isn't her name, maybe of Italian women) as leader of Spain because she was just Queen of Castille. So, my first Spanish leader is Phillip II (accurate translation of Felipe II) because he was the first one considered by himself as King of Spain with the non-official title Rex Hispaniarum, that means "King of the Spains", and ruled in all the Spanish Kingdoms, since he got Portugal, considered Spanish Kingdom in this time (and now by the Iberists).

What are the Iberists?
 
They must be some kind of political party who think that Portugal and Spain are in fact parts of one big 'Iberia' country. That'd oppose separatists in Catalunya and other Spanish provinces.
CROSSPOST!
 
Öjevind Lång;8935911 said:

I mean it's just a personal thing. I feel a male Emperor would be more representative of the imperial history of China. Not that Wu is bad or what not, just personal preference. Also the thing is I don't really like adding female leaders simply because they are female - of course I understand what your reasons for adding Wu in, in that it's not just because they're female, but I felt that if Firaxis ever added Wu, it'd just be because she's female.

But all in all it's just a female thing.



Öjevind Lång;8935911 said:
I don't want to start a flame war over China. :) However, China was, well into the 20th century, an unusually hieararchical country whose ruling class traditionally did everything it could to keep the common people cowed. I repeat that I admire much in Chinese cuture, but not its traditional social attitudes. The only one before Sun Yatsen who tried to change that was Wang Mang, and he failed. I dislike Mao, but even so I give him credit for crushing the old hierarchical system, which featured such things as bondage and the complete subjection of women.

No, I don't want to start a flame war either. Especially since as someone from Vietnam, we Vietnamese tend to have very messy and mixed feelings about the Chinese. :lol: Particularly with Chinese culture and values, we have a love-hate relationship with that, so... yeah.

About the hierarchical system - I wouldn't say Mao eradicated it entirely. Certainly he eradicated aspects of it, such as subjugation of women and so forth, but some aspects still stayed, especially the submit to the idea of submitting to those in higher positions of power. Even so, in other Asian countries, with similar systems, the hierarchal system has blended well into modern society - Japan in particular, for example

But now we're going off tangent, but certainly I understand your position. I don't think its unreasonable to say that the old Chinese culture really was becoming too reactionary.
 
I say screw Germany, make Prussia its own Civilization with Bismarck at the lead. :D After all, both German leaders are of Prussian origin. :)

A pipe dream, yes, but whenever I play as Germany + Bismarck I always rename it to the Prussian Empire. :crazyeye: The UU would be the Prussian Needler, a replacement for a Rifleman/Musketman type unit. The flag would be the iron eagle and the territory color would be beautiful Prussian Blue.

All in all, awesomeness. :king:
 
For Greece how about we break away from the Athenian dominated mold and have Agamemnon as the leader? I think that could be pretty cool.

For Egypt I think Amenhotep III is a good choice. He oversaw huge building programs (Colossi of Memnon) and oversaw what was essentially a Cold War with the Hittites... his play style would be a diplomatic builder. On the other hand I think Akhenaten would be a far more interesting leader to have... both good choices really!

I know its not easy to represent, but perhaps Rome could have someone from the Republic period? I mean granted Caesar and Augustus both saw the end of it, but by that point it wasn't quite the same as it was. I think rome could have 3 leaders representing 3 different parts of its history: CINCINATTUS! (but seriously, Scipio Africanus is a good choice), Augustus/Julius Caesar (both equally good, but you dont really need both i dont think) and for the 3rd phase there are are 3 equally interesting options: (Justinian a good protective type guy), Trajan (arguably the greatest/most badass emperor of rome), or COMMODUS/CALIGULA (just to have a bad leader... they'd never do it, but it would be kind of interesting in my opinion)

I think that Ivan's Assyria is perfect! good choices!

How about a Mughal ruler for india? Aurangzeb is a decent choice (although obviously there are better choices)

Also, just a thought: it is gonna be tough as b*lls to mod the leader's and other artwork in this game isnt it?
 
Alexander wasn't Athenian :P Apart from the fact that Agamemnon was a character in The Iliad, you could always have Leonidas of Sparta instead.
 
well i know alex wasn't and im not denying his importance at all. but i think it would be cool to see an epoch of greek history that is usually overlooked in civ games represented. however i think your point is fair. pericles is a builder, alexander is an imperialist conqueror, and leonidas would be a hardcore turtle with massive military bonuses. Agamemnon would really stray too far into alexander's role. So while i love bronze age history, i think in terms of gameplay, leonidas was better. (and if you want a bronze age mythological figure who ACTUALLY existed how about cadmus? although there is a lot of controversy surrounding this, a hittite text does seem to mention contact with a cadmus of thebes...)
 
Pelopidas and Epaminondas of Thebes for the Greeks?
 
For Egypt I think Amenhotep III is a good choice. He oversaw huge building programs (Colossi of Memnon) and oversaw what was essentially a Cold War with the Hittites... his play style would be a diplomatic builder. On the other hand I think Akhenaten would be a far more interesting leader to have... both good choices really!

Some egyptian leaders which I think would be, though not as 'interesting' as Cleopatra ;), much better regardless:

- Narmer/Menes: Traditional founder of the Egyptian kingdom. Apparently they were about to include him in vanilla Civ4... but didn't. :(
- Ramses II: Was included in Warlords - he is overrated in my opinion, but still a better choice than Cleopatra.
- Ramses III: He defended Egypt from the Sea Peoples who had (if I am correct) completely wrecked the Near East, including Egypt's archnemesis the Hittites
- Seti I: military leader and conqueror, way better than his son Ramses II
- Khufu: built the largest of the pyramids
- Djoser: built the step pyramids
- Amenemhat I-III / Senusret I-III: Personally I think the Middle Kingdom pharaohs are underrated. They all accomplished both domestic and military tasks, and, though probably not as amazing as their New Kingdom counterparts, were still rather remarkable nonetheless.
- Ptolemy I Soter (either him or Ptolemy II, forgot which): If you want a Ptolemic pharaoh that's not Cleopatra, this guy would do. He's the one that built the Great Lighthouse and the Great Library, and also established Egypt as a power in the Mediterranean and the Middle East
- Necho: sent the expedition to attempt to circumnavigate Africa; the expedition was most likely not successful, but still.
- Ahmose I: most likely the Pharaoh who finished the job of kicking the Hyksos out of Egypt
- Ahmose II: one of the last great Pharaohs, who kept Egypt relatively powerful even as it was declining the face of rising powers such as the Greeks and Persians
- Mentuhotep II: reunited Egypt after the problems of the 1st intermediate period
... and the list goes on and on.
 
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