Churchill the Scapegoat?

Glassfan

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The question of Winston Churchill as one of the great leaders of history came up on another thread, and I'd like to start a discussion about his role in the Galipoli campaign in WW I. Churchill has traditionally taken much of the blame for the Dardanelles debacle among historians - the failed operation and the massive casualties. There was even a popular antiwar movie, Galipoli, with Mell Gibson.

But in his (autobiographical) history of the First World War, The World Crisis, Mr. Churchill defends himself from these charges. And while Max Hastings and others warn us about Churchill's (Nobel Prize winner, Literature, 1953) "persuasive eloquence", the former First Lord of the Admiralty presents a convincing argument to the American military mind.

In the last decade or so, a new term began to surface in defense literature such as Armed Forces Journal and Proceedings. This concept is called "mission creep". Mission creep refers to a military operation or campaign that is begun by one (Presidential) administration, but is completed, often in failure, by another. Operations such as Bay of Pigs (Eisenhower/Kennedy) and Somalia (Bush41/Clinton), are examples of mission creep. The campaign is planned or initiated by one administration - but then there's an election - and a new administration, often of the opposite political party, comes to power. This new leadership, with different principles, judgement, agendas, personel - and often burdened with contrary political campaign promises (i.e., Obama - withdrawal from Iraq) - cannot help but to alter the planning, change the rules of engagement, shift the dates and times, and water-down the military power expended. In Bay of Pigs, the Kennedy administration withdrew the planned USAF and USN support to the Free Cuban Brigade. Whether that strategy could have worked or not, eliminating air and naval support absolutely doomed the plan. In Somalia, the Clinton administration recalled the Marine and Mountain Divisions - which had heretofore intimidated the warlords into inaction - and replaced them with second-string UN troops. This led of course to the "Black Hawk Down" incident, and ultimately to American forces pulling-out (These Colors Do Run) altogether. A diagnostic of mission creep is the later administration's need to find scapegoats among the former. The "Irish Mafia" for years defended JFK's shortcomings, and blamed Eisenhower's administration for saddling them with an "unworkable albatross" of a plan (which they carried out anyway, since they needed Florida's Cuban voters).

In Mr. Churchill's contention, he employs a mission creep style argument. He doesn't call it that, it's modern American jargon, but the pattern of changing personel and loss of focus is there.

He recognized (along with Lord Kitchener and others) the need to aid Britain's ally in the war, Russia, which possessed great manpower but few modern weapons; and the best supply route was through the Dardanelles to Sevastopol on the Black Sea. Army forces would be needed to assault the Galipoli penninsula, seize the seaforts dominating the straits, and threaten Istanbul. This latter follow-up operation typically Churchillian precursor planning. However, as naval chief, he didn't have the cooperation of the Army (or the French), which understandably were busy at the time in NE France. So it didn't immediately take place. Then there was regime change. Due to the pressures of the war itself, the casualty lists, early defeats, the Easter Rebellion in Ireland, and the loss of crucial labour support over the Compulsory Military Service Bill, the Asquith ministry at first forms a coalition with the conservatives (25May15), and then ultimately resigns (4Dec15). Churchill is removed from the Admiralty (25May15) and is replaced by Balfour. Meanwhile Kitchener (Churchill's opposite number in the War Minitsry), then a supporter of the plan, dies at sea when his ship sinks during a mission to Russia, and is replaced by Lloyd George.

Eventually, the Galipoli plan is approved, but the punch was telegraphed by Admiral Carden's naval raids up the Dardanelles from February 19th. The Turks, now alerted, increased their minefields in the straits and sent troops, under their finest commander, Mustapha Kemal (later Ataturk) - with German advisors, to defend Galipoli. British General Sir Ian Hamilton improvised an amphibious force and carried out a series of uncoordinated and unconnected landings on the penninsula. At one location, an old collier, the River Clyde, was employed as a kind of landing craft, but when its ramp dropped to disgorge its troops, a Turkish machine gun company openned-up and annihilated the entire force. On another beach, British troops landed without opposition, but remained there, not penetrating inland or linking up with other beacheads, until the Turks finnally arrived to surround them. A number of pointless battles and fruitless additional landings took place in following months until what's left of the force withdrew in January, 1916. Ironically, the retreat was the only successful operation of the entire campaign.

Churchill briefly held a minor post in the coalition ministry, but soon quit and served with the army in France, while also maintaining his MP status as a backbencher. He later rejoins the government. But for most of the Battle of Galipoli - April 1915 to January 1916 - Churchill is out of the loop - and the campaign, known for its incompetence, casualties, and foolishly stubborn persistance - is carried out beyond his reach to influence events. And who does the new government blame for its failure? Kitchener, the hero of Khartoum, is dead. Lloyd George, who actually carried out the plan, is now the PM. That leaves....

I don't suppose anyone out there might disagree?


Sources:
The World Crisis, 1991-1918, Winston S. Churchill, 1931, Charles Scribner's Sons.
An Encyclopedia of World History, ed. William L. Langer, 1968, Houghton Mifflin Company.
A Short History of World War I, James L. Stokesbury, 1981, William Morrow and Company.
 
thank God Fisher managed to drag him down with him; the operation was pointless. The fact that it was poorly planned and conducted doesn't make it more or less pointless. Baltic made sense, Gallipoli really didn't.
 
How did the Baltic make more sense ? With the High Seas Fleet still very much at large and two narrow straits that could be mined it doesn't look any more practical. Do you think they could have landed on the Baltic shore in enough strength to make Germany surrender ? Taking Turkey out of the war and opening a supply line to Russia seemed like a real enough possibility in 1915 to convince the war cabinet, but the operation was compromised and delayed from the outset.
 
Most histories I've read take it for granted that supplying the vast Russian Army with the weapons and supplies it needed to stay in the war, combined with the potential of removing the Ottomans from among Germany's allies was a win/win situation and need hardly be dwelt upon (as vogtmurr points out).The criticism has always been on the extreme incompetence with which it was carried out.

So my question is how much responsibility is on Winston Churchill's shoulders?
 
In my own personal opinion, very little of the blame for Gallipoli's failure falls on Churchill's shoulders. History shows that he was out of the loop for the majority of both the campaign and the planning. The real blame rests with Lloyd George, though the officers on the ground - contrary to popular belief, not merely British officers, who were on average better than their Australian counterparts - did their share to screw the campaign up.

I don't think Gallipoli ever stood much chance of success myself, but it may well have brought about the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-16 if it did, which was reason enough to attempt it, even if Russia couldn't be saved.
 
Churchill maintained that the reason the Dardanelles Campaign failed was because John de Robeck refused to take the straits solely with ships, because the latter was afraid of too many casualties. This is what prompted the marine landings, which Churchill thought was a grave error. Whether or not his original plan would've worked is beyond me, since naval warfare is not my expertise; nevertheless I do think the fact it's hard to blame Churchill when his intended plan was ignored in favor of one he opposed.

From Wikipedia:
Churchill had anticipated losses and considered them a necessary tactical price. In June 1915, he discussed the campaign with the war correspondent Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett, who had returned to London to deliver uncensored reports. Ashmead-Bartlett was incensed at the loss of ships and lives but Churchill responded: That is not the point! They ought to have gone on. What did it matter if more ships were lost? The ships were old and useless.[19] To place the losses into perspective, the Navy ordered 600 new ships during the period Admiral Fisher was First Sea Lord, approximately corresponding with the length of the Dardanelles campaign.[10]

De Robeck was reported to be distraught from the losses[20]. He wrote on 18 March: After losing so many ships I shall obviously find myself superseded tomorrow morning.[17] He had been in charge of a fleet that had suffered the most serious loss to the Royal Navy since Trafalgar and felt that losing further ships was the worst thing a sailor could do. On 23 March he telegraphed the admiralty that it would be necessary to have the support of land forces before proceeding. He later told the Dardanelles Commission investigating the campaign that his main reason for changing his mind was concern for what might happen in the event of success: that the fleet might find itself at İstanbul or on the Marmara sea fighting an enemy which did not simply surrender as the plan presupposed, without any troops available to secure captured territory.[21]

With the failure of the naval assault, the idea that land forces could advance around the backs of the Dardanelles forts and capture Istanbul gained support as an alternative. On 25 April, the Gallipoli Campaign was launched. Significant naval forces were devoted to support of that operation.
 
From what i remember the Dardanelles started out as Churchill's idea but he was being ostracised by the time it was actually implemented so didn't have as much of a say in it as he would have liked. LightSpectra seems to hit the nail on the head with the failings of the campaign being able to be seen from the unwillingness for the navy to continue after losing (i think 1 ship but i may be wrong).
 
It was like two or three obsolescent battleships lost - but the addition of modern fleet units more than made up for this. The truth (maybe in hindsight) - is that despite all the delays, they had silenced nearly all the batteries, and cleared maybe the last belt of mines before the Sea of Marmara, when a chance hit with a stray mine led the naval commander to withdraw. All their gains were wasted by that as the Turks rebuilt their mine barrages.

I believe Churchill reluctantly went along with the land campaign, thinking it was going to be under joint direction with the First Sea Lord, but then he found out Kitchener was taking charge and he was sidelined. It was set up to fail both times.
 
Obviously some amphibious landings were necessary if the Straits were to be held, but as the objective of the campaign was primarily to supply Russia, all that was needed was for the Straits to be cleared. This only required the Navy. To force Turkey out of the war would have required landings though, but they were secondary to the primary purpose of the campaign.
 
So on a scale of Kimmel (0) to Dreyfus (10), where would you guys place Winston?
 
So on a scale of Kimmel (0) to Dreyfus (10), where would you guys place Winston?

wow I dont know enough about either of those guys, but a 10 is pretty prestigious. Churchill as a wartime politician gets a 10. Maybe a 6-7 in 'peace' time, depending on your political spectrum.
 
wow I dont know enough about either of those guys, but a 10 is pretty prestigious. Churchill as a wartime politician gets a 10. Maybe a 6-7 in 'peace' time, depending on your political spectrum.
As a wartime politician he was among the best, but he wasn't much of a strategist. Of course, he was still better than most other British politicians at the time. :lol:

There is plenty to not like bout Churchill - especially if you're Irish - but he was a very good wartime leader in WWII, so he gets bumped up for that. I hate to quantify anything with a number or star rating, but I'd likely put Churchill at a 7 for his wartime leadership. If not for that I doubt I'd even give him a 5, despite his overall Badass-ness. Honestly, how can you not like the guy in this picture?

Winston_Churchill.jpg
 
As a wartime politician he was among the best, but he wasn't much of a strategist. Of course, he was still better than most other British politicians at the time. :lol:

There is plenty to not like bout Churchill - especially if you're Irish - but he was a very good wartime leader in WWII, so he gets bumped up for that. I hate to quantify anything with a number or star rating, but I'd likely put Churchill at a 7 for his wartime leadership. If not for that I doubt I'd even give him a 5, despite his overall Badass-ness. Honestly, how can you not like the guy in this picture?

Winston_Churchill.jpg

Thats not a very generous rating actually - just slightly above average. I didn't think he was a bad strategist, he was energetic, made some pretty tough decisions and farseeing initiatives. I have to rate him higher for his integrity towards the Commonwealth and his allies, whether he liked them or not. Made some of the best speeches ever. Then there's his acerbic wit, priceless ! And his scholarly pursuits - altogether, an uncommon man.
 
Honestly, how can you not like the guy in this picture?

Winston_Churchill.jpg

Sorry, I meant as a scapegoat. Admiral Husband Kimmil claimed he was a scapegoat for Pearl Harbor, when in fact he bore responsibility for his failure, so he is zero(not a scapegoat). Lt. Alfred Dreyfuss of the French Army(sic) is the ultimate example of being scapegoated for a higher-up's crimes, actually sentenced to "Devil's Island (so he's a ten - completely scapegoated). So my question is actually if you guys thought he was guilty or innocent.

Also, this picture from LB is great. The Nazis of course tried to use it as propaganda - that Churchill was like a mobster. But here in America, our grandparents saw he had a made-in-the-USA Thompson Submachine Gun and admired him, as they did mobsters.
 
Sorry, I meant as a scapegoat. Admiral Husband Kimmil claimed he was a scapegoat for Pearl Harbor, when in fact he bore responsibility for his failure, so he is zero(not a scapegoat). Lt. Alfred Dreyfuss of the French Army(sic) is the ultimate example of being scapegoated for a higher-up's crimes, actually sentenced to "Devil's Island (so he's a ten - completely scapegoated). So my question is actually if you guys thought he was guilty or innocent.

Also, this picture from LB is great. The Nazis of course tried to use it as propaganda - that Churchill was like a mobster. But here in America, our grandparents saw he had a made-in-the-USA Thompson Submachine Gun and admired him, as they did mobsters.
Oh, you mean Admiral Kimmel of Pearl Harbour? I hate to break it to you, but he was hardly at fault for Pearl Harbour. The intelligence he was given was shoddy; he was on the lookout for a submarine attack, which he thwarted quite effectively.

As a scapegoat Churchill would be at least a 9.
 
Oh, you mean Admiral Kimmil of Pearl Harbour? I hate to break it to you, but he was hardly at fault for Pearl Harbour. The intelligence he was given was shoddy; he was on the lookout for a submarine attack, which he thwarted quite effectively.

As a scapegoat Churchill would be at least a 9.

Kimmil was a peacetime officer out of his reckoning. In those days, local commanders generated their own intelligence - he didn't. There were no National Technical Assets, no NRO, no CIA, no Spy satellites, etc. He wasn't at fault - the Japanese were. But he failed to protect his command, not even a dawn patrol. Also, scapegoating usually involves a higher-up who is being protected, and no such here. He and General Short maintained a virtual peacetime regimen - even when the Jap fleet "disappeared" and began radio silence.

Well, anyway, I agree with your nine for Winnie.
 
Kimmil was a peacetime officer out of his reckoning. In those days, local commanders generated their own intelligence - he didn't. There were no National Technical Assets, no NRO, no CIA, no Spy satellites, etc. He wasn't at fault - the Japanese were. But he failed to protect his command, not even a dawn patrol. Also, scapegoating usually involves a higher-up who is being protected, and no such here. He and General Short maintained a virtual peacetime regimen - even when the Jap fleet "disappeared" and began radio silence.

Well, anyway, I agree with your nine for Winnie.
Local commanders on US soil most definitely did NOT generate their own intelligence; that was military/naval intelligence's job. Pearl Harbour was the fault of the War Ministry - or whatever the US equivalent is called, Department of Defense? - for not putting the pieces of intelligence together correctly, and not providing Kimmmel with the information they had. They were too focused on The Philippines, which any idiot could see was not the major strategic thorn in Japan's side, and therefore ws far less important than Pearl Harbour.

As it was, Kimmel was warned to expect a submarine attack; that is all he was warned about, despite the intelligence clearly indicating that a Taranto-type carrier raid was likely. That submarine attack on Pearl Harbour did come, several hours before the bombing raid, and was thwarted by Kimmel's forces with ease.
 
Local commanders on US soil most definitely did NOT generate their own intelligence; that was military/naval intelligence's job. Pearl Harbour was the fault of the War Ministry - or whatever the US equivalent is called, Department of Defense? - for not putting the pieces of intelligence together correctly, and not providing Kimmmel with the information they had. They were too focused on The Philippines, which any idiot could see was not the major strategic thorn in Japan's side, and therefore ws far less important than Pearl Harbour.

As it was, Kimmel was warned to expect a submarine attack; that is all he was warned about, despite the intelligence clearly indicating that a Taranto-type carrier raid was likely. That submarine attack on Pearl Harbour did come, several hours before the bombing raid, and was thwarted by Kimmel's forces with ease.

The important thing to understand here, is that the modern, top-down intelligence apparatus is a post-WW II development. Prior to the war, intelligence was gathered locally and worked its way upwards. As CinCPAC, Admiral Kimmil had his own intel staff, which should have gathered information on the Japanese and passed it on to their commander at the daily brief. Observers from the courtesy visits American ships made to Japan would have noted the complete disappearance of the Japanese fleet in late November, 1941. Signals traffic analysis would have caught the sudden "radio-silence" of those ships. In the basement at Pearl, Commander Edwin Leighton, Kimmil's Chief of Intelligence, should have been drawing daily "cruise-radii" around the Jap fleet bases, and noting that those circles were approaching the Hawaiian Islands in early December. Kimmil ought to have been screaming bloody murder to the Navy Department for more ships, planes and men. Air recon and a submarine line should have been posted to the northwest beyond Midway.

Kimmil didn't do any of the prudent things a commander should have been doing under these circumstances. Numerous messages were sent from Washington, including the November 27th "War Warning" (today-DEFCON4) from CNO Admiral King, outlining suspected Japanese intentions. Instead, while increasing training tempo, essentially peacetime routines were continued at Pearl Harbor.

Thanks for mentioning the brilliant British carrier strike at Taranto, Italy, in November 1940. As a naval officer, Admiral Kimmil would have been acutely aware of this new tactic, and ought to have experienced anxieties concern the vulnerabilities of his own command, especially in reference to the size and strength of the powerful Japanese carrier fleet.

Husband Kimmil's "I was not warned" excuse appeals to our modern, spy satellite, NRO, CIA, Fort Meade, experience. It was simply not true in the fiscally austere and technologically primitive environment of 1941. He himself ought to have been the expert on Japanese intentions and should have aggressively prepared.

And by the way, Churchill was unfairly maligned.
 
To be fair to both Kimmel and the Department of War, it's only in retrospect that Pearl Harbor seems like an obvious target. The fact that the Japanese fleet was able to make such a journey, so far, under completeradio silence without being spotted is one of the most extraordinary feats of modern naval warfare. The Japanese themselves weren't certain they'd be able to do it. While the Phillipines seems less like a strategic threat (which is arguable) they certainly seemed like the immediate target.
 
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