Stuck_as_a_Mac
Aptenodytes forsteri
To refine my polling abilities (and boy... do they need it) I will join this group
Citizens' Group: The Polling Standards Commission
- Thread starter Eklektikos
- Start date
Peri
Vote early and vote often
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2002
- Messages
- 3,261
That's a clear table of assessment. It ocurred to me about weighting but then I read your edit properly. Personally I believe that the following should be weighted and regarded as mandatory for a 'good poll':
Discussion thread up for 24+ hours and discussion complete.
Impartial and easy to understand choices.
Running time is stated.
Reasons:
No one can question the validity by saying there was not enough time to discuss the matter, or the choices were manipulative and confusing, or we thought we could vote later.
To clarify - In real political elections plenty of time is given before polling day. The public know how long they have to vote and the choices are simple. I believe these are the key tests for a valid poll.
Although the other standards are important I dont believe that a 'failure to meet' on one or two is critical.
Linking standards make the poll more accessible but it is the responsibility of the citizen to read the relevant threads.
I also dont believe that a minimum participation level is necessary. As I have said before it is up to each citizen to vote in the polls.
People can abstain by not voting.
If the question is subjective and then people can vote against or author a new poll.
Discussion thread up for 24+ hours and discussion complete.
Impartial and easy to understand choices.
Running time is stated.
Reasons:
No one can question the validity by saying there was not enough time to discuss the matter, or the choices were manipulative and confusing, or we thought we could vote later.
To clarify - In real political elections plenty of time is given before polling day. The public know how long they have to vote and the choices are simple. I believe these are the key tests for a valid poll.
Although the other standards are important I dont believe that a 'failure to meet' on one or two is critical.
Linking standards make the poll more accessible but it is the responsibility of the citizen to read the relevant threads.
I also dont believe that a minimum participation level is necessary. As I have said before it is up to each citizen to vote in the polls.
People can abstain by not voting.
If the question is subjective and then people can vote against or author a new poll.
Almightyjosh
Governor in Waiting
Wow!
I've been away so long I didn't even know we had a new demogame!!!
I'm gonna join this citizen group before any other, so there.
To get down to it...
I think the main problem in polls is how they are written and interpreted in terms of options. The main problem is that people split the options on one side or the other and it comes out skewed. Like:
Should we build more cities?
-No
-Yes, 1 more
-Yes, 2 more
clearly both the second and thrid option support the building of atleast one extra city, but the problem is that many people try and count them independantly and it's stupid. More on this phenomenon later.
PS Hello everyone
I've been away so long I didn't even know we had a new demogame!!!
I'm gonna join this citizen group before any other, so there.
To get down to it...
I think the main problem in polls is how they are written and interpreted in terms of options. The main problem is that people split the options on one side or the other and it comes out skewed. Like:
Should we build more cities?
-No
-Yes, 1 more
-Yes, 2 more
clearly both the second and thrid option support the building of atleast one extra city, but the problem is that many people try and count them independantly and it's stupid. More on this phenomenon later.
PS Hello everyone
Stuck_as_a_Mac
Aptenodytes forsteri
He has returned!!
You will be pleased to know that you bear the name of the last victorious GL producing elite unit in DG2. You showed up to open the Seven Doors of Theebes to the Fanatikan Panzers.
You will be pleased to know that you bear the name of the last victorious GL producing elite unit in DG2. You showed up to open the Seven Doors of Theebes to the Fanatikan Panzers.
suggestion for the ongoing vote about how to name our nation (and possible future votes with a similar structure):
With so many choices you have to vote, there should be two votes. First vote with all choices. them second vote with only those three or four (there has to be decided how many exactly) with the most votes in poll one.
With so many choices you have to vote, there should be two votes. First vote with all choices. them second vote with only those three or four (there has to be decided how many exactly) with the most votes in poll one.
Peri
Vote early and vote often
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2002
- Messages
- 3,261
There hasnt been a tremendous ammount of feed back on the the proposals put forward by Shaitan or the ammendments which followed. Therefore I think we should have a manual poll to vote in these standards with a secondary poll on the proposed ammendments/suggestions.
We cant move forward as a group until this is done.
Eklektikos would you be kind enough to set this up please.
We cant move forward as a group until this is done.
Eklektikos would you be kind enough to set this up please.
Shaitan
der Besucher
I like donsig's idea of taking out the subjective portions (fair, unbiased) from the point system and making that a pass/fail criteria. The physical poll elements would then be the rating of a fair poll.
Eklektikos
Eponymous
As requested by Peri, I'll set up a poll for acceptance of the 10 proposed standards collated in Shaitan's earlier post.
Here's the planned first post, to allow you to make sure I've not missed anything out
Here's the planned first post, to allow you to make sure I've not missed anything out
If there are no objections I will post this tomorrow morning.
Bacon King
Emperor
I'd like to join.
I agree with Peri. Brilliant.
I agree with Peri. Brilliant.
Cpt Kaos
Chieftain
I like it because its elegant in its simplicity.
Eklektikos
Eponymous
I've now posted the proposed standards acceptance poll. All members should go vote in it ASAP 
Peri
Vote early and vote often
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2002
- Messages
- 3,261
I've been mulling over the idea of impartiality and how it is qualified for a few days without much success.
No one has spoken against the idea that the fulfilment of these 2 concepts should be compulsory which is encouraging.
Perhaps we could consider defining impartiality with regards to the question along the lines of ...
The question will only be considered objective and impartial if its framing does not pre dispose voters to a particular option.
and options as....
The options will only be considered objective and impartial if the ...(got stuck here)
Please make suggestions and comments
No one has spoken against the idea that the fulfilment of these 2 concepts should be compulsory which is encouraging.
Perhaps we could consider defining impartiality with regards to the question along the lines of ...
The question will only be considered objective and impartial if its framing does not pre dispose voters to a particular option.
and options as....
The options will only be considered objective and impartial if the ...(got stuck here)
Please make suggestions and comments
donsig
Low level intermediary
Some poll questions are easier to deal with than others when it comes to deciding if they are impartial or not and whether the options are impartial or not. The question, Should we waste our time and energy in a vain attempt to build the Great Wall? along with the options no and abstain is obviously not impartial on both counts. But how about the question How many offensive military units should we have? with the options 1, 2, alot, abstain? The question seems reasonable but the options aren't since zero is not included. Also, how do we determine a fair breakdown of the options in such a poll. Perhaps we should step back and look at the different kinds of polls questions there can be and decide if slightly different standards are needed for each. Since we can also now have multi-choice polls perhaps they should be handled a bit differently.
Shaitan
der Besucher
There will always be room for error when judging subjective criteria and donsig has a good point that some will be easier to judge than others. However, as the determination of the impartiality and fairness of a poll and poll options will always be subjective we are going to have to deal with those items subjectively. As to how will we decide whether impartiality is reached, about all we can do is give it our best effort.
Remember that this group will not be making polls valid or invalid. We're simply offering a service to the pollsters and voters. We will be giving authoritative feedback and approval (or censure) as appropriate, based on the elements we decide upon here. We are the Underwriters of the polling world.
That said, let's look into the basic polling types as donsig suggests:
Y/N/A - The basic poll. It has a question with Yes, No and (usually) Abstain options.
Plurality Choice - Pick your favorite from a list. The one that gets the most votes wins. Elections are this type of poll. Many option decisions are done in this style as well and this is okay so long as the options are limited. The more options there are, the greater the danger that a significant portion of the populace does not support the plurality winner. For long lists an approval poll should be used first to wean the choices.
Approval poll (multi-choice) - The best bet for long lists of options. Voters select all options that they approve. This type of poll is best used to filter a field of contenders down to a manageable number that can be posted in a Plurality Choice poll.
Those are the big 3. Any others?
Remember that this group will not be making polls valid or invalid. We're simply offering a service to the pollsters and voters. We will be giving authoritative feedback and approval (or censure) as appropriate, based on the elements we decide upon here. We are the Underwriters of the polling world.
That said, let's look into the basic polling types as donsig suggests:
Y/N/A - The basic poll. It has a question with Yes, No and (usually) Abstain options.
Plurality Choice - Pick your favorite from a list. The one that gets the most votes wins. Elections are this type of poll. Many option decisions are done in this style as well and this is okay so long as the options are limited. The more options there are, the greater the danger that a significant portion of the populace does not support the plurality winner. For long lists an approval poll should be used first to wean the choices.
Approval poll (multi-choice) - The best bet for long lists of options. Voters select all options that they approve. This type of poll is best used to filter a field of contenders down to a manageable number that can be posted in a Plurality Choice poll.
Those are the big 3. Any others?
I think we need to make so that there are no quorums but all polls should have a 48-hour closing time minimum.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Quite often there isn't time for a 48 hour poll and very often (especially when a poll is advertised correctly) there is a more than sufficient level of participation in 24 hours. I wouldn't want a hard and fast criteria of how long a poll has to be up but I definitely want to see how long it will be up.
Donovan Zoi
The Return
The only other poll type that comes to mind is the Manual Poll, like the one we are using to adopt our standards. Granted, this won't come up as much, but should still be considered.
That said, I am off to peruse the Constitution to see if there is any mention of the Council Vote. This would be another example of a Manual Poll.
That said, I am off to peruse the Constitution to see if there is any mention of the Council Vote. This would be another example of a Manual Poll.
Eklektikos
Eponymous
The proposed list of 10 standards has now been accepted by open ballot of our membership and has therefore taken its place in the first post of this thread.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Great! Now let's get the nitty gritty worked out.
As noted previously we have 2 qualifications. The first (and, IMHO, more important) is fair polling. That means that the poll question and response options need to be impartial, clear and appropriate, and inclusive. The second is the adherence to poll elements. I'll comment on the second first.
I believe that we should use a point off system instead of a point accumulation system. That is, take off a point (or number of points depending on if we weight things) when items are missed. If more than a certain number of points are lost then the poll is censured. The reason for this is there is not always a need for all of the elements. If there is no minimum requirement for the poll then there is no absolute need for an abstain option. If we used point accumulation then just about every poll that didn't have a minimum requirement would lose two (or more) points when they are actually are correct just because they lack those elements.
For the first category, I suggest definitions of:
Impartial - No obvious bias or slant in the way the poll question or responses are written.
Clear - Easy to understand. No double negatives, etc.
Appropriate - The correct poll type is used. No plurality choice to determine a winner among 10 contenders.
Inclusive - Options that were proposed in discussion are included in the poll.
As noted previously we have 2 qualifications. The first (and, IMHO, more important) is fair polling. That means that the poll question and response options need to be impartial, clear and appropriate, and inclusive. The second is the adherence to poll elements. I'll comment on the second first.
I believe that we should use a point off system instead of a point accumulation system. That is, take off a point (or number of points depending on if we weight things) when items are missed. If more than a certain number of points are lost then the poll is censured. The reason for this is there is not always a need for all of the elements. If there is no minimum requirement for the poll then there is no absolute need for an abstain option. If we used point accumulation then just about every poll that didn't have a minimum requirement would lose two (or more) points when they are actually are correct just because they lack those elements.
For the first category, I suggest definitions of:
Impartial - No obvious bias or slant in the way the poll question or responses are written.
Clear - Easy to understand. No double negatives, etc.
Appropriate - The correct poll type is used. No plurality choice to determine a winner among 10 contenders.
Inclusive - Options that were proposed in discussion are included in the poll.
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