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City Development

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Austria, EU, no kangaroos ;)
    This has probably been discussed before, but could walls provide fast healing for cities? This would be similar to higher HP and more logical than the constant damage idea.

    Or is that what you just meant, alpaca?


    EDIT:

    Thal, have you ever thought about specifically asking the dev's for this function to be accessible after the next patch?
    If 2kGreg wouldn't know you as VIP community member, he'd be miserable at his job.

    They just HAVE to know who you are and what you're doing here. You're doing so much to balance the game, and you do it while keeping the game very similar to vanilla. If I were a dev, I'd check out your mods as a hint how to balance the game.
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    We're completely in the land of subjectivity here, but through the "fun" prism, having to work to take cities is fun if you like to use combined arms and difficult if you don't, while a static AI population is more fun for a peaceful approach (trade) and a wash for a warmongering one (harder but more of a challenge). That's why I hope there's a happy medium you haven't quite defined yet.
     
  3. Kanin

    Kanin Chieftain

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    Minor text bug in BCD - Language_en_US.xml
    TXT_KEY_BUILDING_OXFORD_UNIVERSITY_HELP
    2 Engineer Specialist where it should be 2 Scientist Specialist
     
  4. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    @Tomice
    I dunno... from work I've done on other games it's statistically not very likely devs will (or can) act on specific suggestions. It's just the way the software development often works.

    @Txurce
    You have a good point there.

    @Kanin
    Thanks. I corrected it in the development version (bottom of this post).
     
  5. truetom

    truetom Warlord

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    I suppose this is compatibile with "Balance - Combat" mod.:) Just can't live without it anymore...:king:
     
  6. marekb

    marekb Warlord

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    1:c5citizen: scientist is moved from Library to Research Lab, but it remains 2:c5citizen: scientist in Paper Maker.
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I think that was the idea - otherwise China might have been nerfed too much.
     
  8. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    I doubt that. China is quite strong enough without getting a huge science boost on top of everything else
     
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I went back and checked, and Thal explained why he nerfed the GG and the papermaker's happiness output. He said he felt these were strong enough to leave the chu-ko-nu the way it was. So the papermaker's two science slots may well be an oversight.
     
  10. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Yeah, that was just an oversight. I'll correct it.
     
  11. supermanny22

    supermanny22 Chieftain

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    Thal, love the updates, can't play the game without them.
    A few text bugs I found in your latest City Development v10 release.

    In the BCD - Language_en_US.xml file:

    The Circus Maximus related TXT_KEY entries (_Help, _Strategy, _Pedia) are still listed as adds. These should be enclosed in <Update> brackets now that those TXT_KEYs exist in vanilla after the 135 patch.

    In the BCD - National Wonders.xml file:

    An entire entry for Circus Maximus is located outside of the <Buildings> brackets. I believe this entire block needs to be commented out.

    Keep up the great work!
     
  12. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Thank you for catching those errors. The second thing is actually a leftover from me copying info to reference it while editing. :crazyeye:

    Also, welcome with your first post! :)
     
  13. Kepi

    Kepi Chieftain

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    City Development v. 10, from the Combined modpack (don't know if this affects the individual City Development mod too).

    In BCD - Gold.xml, shouldn't line 14-15:
    Code:
    <Where BuildingClass="BUILDINGCLASS_MARKET" />
    <Set Cost="170" /> <!-- 220 -->
    be:
    Code:
    <Where BuildingClass="BUILDINGCLASS_BANK" />
    <Set Cost="170" /> <!-- 220 -->
     
  14. al-rashid

    al-rashid Chieftain

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    k just downloaded your mod pack balance combined, just to be sure city developemnt 10 is the only one updated to the newest patch?
     
  15. harry_flashman

    harry_flashman Chieftain

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    Noticed in the civpedia the other night that workshops are listed as giving 50% production boost. I'm presuming it's just the 30%.
    I'm also presuming you prefer people to point out oversights like this so they can be corrected, rather than thinking me a finikity bugger. :D
     
  16. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Yeah, I noticed this too, I hope its not 50% as that would be far too powerful.
     
  17. harry_flashman

    harry_flashman Chieftain

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    Just built a workshop. It is a 50% boost! Is there any way to put this back to 30% and carry on with my current game, as it's rather a fun one? I've got build times so fast I think I'm in civ VI. :D
     
  18. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Workshops (and other production buildings like the Solar/Nuclear plants, Forges, etc) are something I've been discussing extensively with orangecape in PMs and email over the past month or so. The thing is, these are rather bad in vanilla.

    I'll try and find the details... it's spread out over a lot of messages.
     
  19. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    I kind of feel like you should go with the terrain buffs (like you have been) *or* buff production buildings. I decided today to finally try out the PWM mod, and am really missing the hammers from BCD. FWIW, I think the build times have been very well balanced to this point, although I admit to being a builder and emphasize production (figuratively) in most all of my games. So I won't say no to more hammers.:p
     
  20. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    The workshop changes and such were also listed in the 1.0.1.135 update notes (link), and have been in the development versions for several weeks. I just haven't had time to write out the reasons in depth. Hopefully the math terms don't confuse anyone too much. :)

    These are the estimated number of turns in vanilla of constantly constructing buildings (return on investment, ROI) until building the workshop no longer penalized your civ (considering cost, production modifier, and maintenance). Before this point your civ is weaker than it would be without the workshop; after this point it is stronger. This assumes a 1:1 gold:hammers value ratio. I haven't seen math on what estimates of the true value ratio is, and it depends on policy choices, so I picked 1:1 since yield rates and specialists seem to be at about that value. I also ignore the time-value of money (TVM) in the formula since the rate of value inflation in Civ V is not clearly documented yet. (Time-value of money is the question: how much more valuable are 100 hammers now compared to 100 hammers in say, 50 turns?)

    X city base hammers, Y turns ROI, +Z turns added to ROI for each 1 turn not constructing a building

    • <9:c5production:, Never build a workshop in such a city; drains economy.
    • 12:c5production:, 100 turns, +2
    • 15:c5production:, 57 turns, +1.15
    • 20:c5production:, 33 turns, +0.7

    Basically, in vanilla it's only worth delaying production for a workshop once a city reaches at least 15 base production, 20 recommended, and only if it never builds units (rules out military production city) or wonders (typically excludes the capital). Most other cities don't reach 15-20 production until the industrial or modern eras, so in vanilla workshops are generally not a good idea until forced to build one for a Factory (whose benefits exceed the penalties of having a workshop). Keep in mind this is also ignoring TVM. Considering Civ V's power curve on InfoAddict score graphs compared to previous versions of civ, with TVM I'd estimate these numbers are about 50% longer, though I cannot give a precise figure.

    Increasing the effect of workshops 20% (1.5/1.25) makes them useful in almost any city, provided you're in a circumstance where it's safe to delay production for long-term gains. As a result it becomes a decent choice when stacked up against more useful buildings like Colosseums or Markets.

    In addition, late-game buildings have a significantly lower cost/benefit ratio than early-game buildings. For example, the Stock Exchange is 1/4 the :c5gold:/:c5production: value of a Market. The workshop's increased bonus is partially designed to help get these late-game buildings constructed in a timeframe whereby you can recover the up-front costs before the game ends. A 20% increase in the Workshop's effect seemed to be a better alternative than cutting the Stock Exchange cost by 75%, or other such dramatic measures.

    Solar/Nuclear power plants and other production buildings like the Arsenal were also buffed for similar reasons, though they're in worse shape than the Workshop. The Arsenal is likely one of the worst buildings in the game, a 25% land unit production bonus with high cost and maintenance. That close to the end of the game there's little hope of ever recovering the investment. I increased it 20% (to 50%) and it now works with aircraft production as well. Other details can be found in the update notes on the update website linked at the top of the post.
     

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