City Limitations via Civics

[strategyonly]

OK, from a few post that i have been reading lately, there seems to be a "concern" that the new City Limits that were placed in the Civics area of this mod, are to limited?

OK what i need to know is:
1. Do you want City Limits like they are now?
2. Do you want them to be raised "a little?"
3. Do you want City Limits at ALL?
4. Whats your opinion(s)?

OK, I need a Pro's and Con's from people that are really getting into this mod, Pls, and thx for playing this mod

 

[Schwarzbart]

I think City Limits have to adjusted for the Map size or if this is not posible scrap them.
On a Huge Map I would say 4/8/12 is the minimum but even one map size large you will need to give at last 15 to Monarcy because of the quests.
In general I would say Monarchy should give at last the number needed per Map size for the quests.

 

[Koshling]

I think City Limits have to adjusted for the Map size or if this is not posible scrap them.
On a Huge Map I would say 4/8/12 is the minimum but even one map size large you will need to give at last 15 to Monarcy because of the quests.
In general I would say Monarchy should give at last the number needed per Map size for the quests.

Adjusting by map size seems like a good idea and it should be easy, thougbnit nees to be map size/number of civs I think. I'll look at having the DLL auto-scale them by map area if that seems reasonable to everyone, with the current limits being the ones that apply on 'normal' size with the default number of civs for that size. Need to see what that means in practise though, since its POSIBLE that the default number of civs increase faster than the map area (but I doubt it)

 

[climat]

I'm not a big fan of it, but I think it helps AI. (It can be delusion, however.)
Just adjust it a little.
I think monarchy and republic should have same limitation so that players can choose between the two.

My idea:
Chiefdom (4) - Despotism (8) - Monarchy (20) - Republic (20) - the rest (Unlimited)

Limits itself is not a big deal. However, war weariness increase by Democracy/Federal is really a problem. +75%/+100% each? That's way too much..

 

[EldrinFal]

Scaling by map size is a good idea.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm not in favor of City Limits At All. Which came from some ppl that didn't want to manage their cities late game. (macro vs micro), so they called it city Spam.
Pro: No artificial limit on AI. Con: I don't see one but I'm sure others will.

But if that's the direction the the Mod is going the current rate is too small.

If you adjust for map size with the current limits set for Small not Normal each succeedingly larger map should be increased by 2 for chiefdom.

I.E. Normal and Chiefdom = 5, Large & Chief = 7, etc.
Despot & Small =8, with similar progression, Normal = 10, etc.
Monarchy & Small = 14, with similar prog.
But once Republic is reached No City Limit there after.

Pro: This may seem large but the AI will fill it up quickly and it adds back into the game some of the eXcitement of eXpansion, and resource acquisition. Also should cause the AI to take Gov't Civics past Monarchy. Currently only certain LH Traits will go past monarchy.
Con: Still places an artificial barrier on AI and player growth.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Adjusting by map size seems like a good idea and it should be easy, though it nees to be map size/number of civs I think. I'll look at having the DLL auto-scale them by map area if that seems reasonable to everyone, with the current limits being the ones that apply on 'normal' size with the default number of civs for that size. Need to see what that means in practise though, since its POSSIBLE that the default number of civs increase faster than the map area (but I doubt it)

I've done this experimentally (normalized to the default civs/per-unit-area of a STANDARD map for now, just to gather results). The results would be (chiefdom, despotism, monarchy, republic):

WORLDSIZE_DUEL: (2,5,9,15)
WORLDSIZE_TINY: (3,5,11,18)
WORLDSIZE_SMALL: (2,5,10,16)
WORLDSIZE_STANDARD: (3,6,12,20)
WORLDSIZE_LARGE: (4,7,14,24)
WORLDSIZE_HUGE: (5,9,18,30)
WORLDSIZE_GIANT: (6,12,24,40)
WORLDSIZE_GIGANTIC: (8,16,32,52)

The apparent anomolies arise because the space per civilization (using default civ count) actually goes DOWN between tiny and small! IMO this is actually a good reason to change the default civ count on the small map (independenelty of anything that might be decided about city limits). If we do decide to adopt this scaling I would personally want to normalize against LARGE or even HUGE, because otherwise the numbers are too big (IMO) for the bigger map sizes.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would actually like to add a new pre-Chiefdom Civic. This would make Chiefdom come at Chiefdom tech.

Anarchism = 3 (Start)
Chiefdom = 6 (Chiefdom)
Despotism = 9 (Bronze Working)
Monarchy = 12 (Monarchy)
Republic = 20 (Democracy)
Others = Unlimited (Various)

The question is what stats should Anarchism have?

EDIT: Here is my idea. Note i had to make it worse than Chiefdom

Anarchism

• +80% Maintenance Cost from Distance to the Palace
• +80% Maintenance Cost from Number of Cities
• +80% Maintenance Cost for Overseas Cities
• Increased Local Rebelliousness
• Increased National Rebelliousness
• +3 in All Cities
• Cannot Settle More than 3 Cities

What ya think?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It may be possible to do the adjustment of city limits by world size in the XML. It depends if each size is a different game option. If it is then it wold be very easy to make a very small XML module to do it.

 

[Koshling]

It may be possible to do the adjustment of city limits by world size in the XML. It depends if each size is a different game option. If it is then it wold be very easy to make a very small XML module to do it.

It's not. World sizes are defined with their own schema using <WorldSizeInfo> tags.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is an option in when you set up the game you are about to play asking what world size you want. If that is a set of boleans eg "gameoption_world_size_small" for example then we can. If on the other hand it is a value eg "gameoption_world_size = small" then we can't do it in XML.

rats - forget it - I forgot that the GAMEOPTION tag is not an and/or option for the for the bit of XML it is in but for the fully compiled object. :sigh:

 

[strategyonly]

I've done this experimentally (normalized to the default civs/per-unit-area of a STANDARD map for now, just to gather results). The results would be (chiefdom, despotism, monarchy, republic):

WORLDSIZE_DUEL: (2,5,9,15)
WORLDSIZE_TINY: (3,5,11,18)
WORLDSIZE_SMALL: (2,5,10,16)
WORLDSIZE_STANDARD: (3,6,12,20)
WORLDSIZE_LARGE: (4,7,14,24)
WORLDSIZE_HUGE: (5,9,18,30)
WORLDSIZE_GIANT: (6,12,24,40)
WORLDSIZE_GIGANTIC: (8,16,32,52)

The apparent anomalies arise because the space per civilization (using default civ count) actually goes DOWN between tiny and small! IMO this is actually a good reason to change the default civ count on the small map (independently of anything that might be decided about city limits). If we do decide to adopt this scaling I would personally want to normalize against LARGE or even HUGE, because otherwise the numbers are too big (IMO) for the bigger map sizes.

I really like this idea, but again the question is, would everyone be happy WITH "City Limits" then in a game? or NOT? If not then what happens?

I would actually like to add a new pre-Chiefdom Civic. This would make Chiefdom come at Chiefdom tech.

Anarchism = 3 (Start)
Chiefdom = 6 (Chiefdom)
Despotism = 9 (Bronze Working)
Monarchy = 12 (Monarchy)
Republic = 20 (Democracy)
Others = Unlimited (Various)

The question is what stats should Anarchism have?

EDIT: Here is my idea. Note i had to make it worse than Chiefdom

Anarchism

• +80% Maintenance Cost from Distance to the Palace
• +80% Maintenance Cost from Number of Cities
• +80% Maintenance Cost for Overseas Cities
• Increased Local Rebelliousness
• Increased National Rebelliousness
• +3 in All Cities
• Cannot Settle More than 3 Cities or what ever we come up with?

What ya think?

I know you have been thinking of this for aloooong time now, but if "we" adopt this and everyone is satisfied, i'd like it in the CORE of the game and not as a module.

 

[EldrinFal]

It's too bad it can't be limited by distance from the capital instead of number of cities. Seems like that would be a more realistic interpretation of governmental ZOC / sphere of influence.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It's too bad it can't be limited by distance from the capital instead of number of cities. Seems like that would be a more realistic interpretation of governmental ZOC / sphere of influence.

Distance is a rough measure - travel time would be better. After all it is usely easier to communicate up and down a river than over mountains.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I know you have been thinking of this for aloooong time now, but if "we" adopt this and everyone is satisfied, i'd like it in the CORE of the game and not as a module.

Yeah the city amount for Anarchism would depend upon what you chnage the other civics to be. I say go for it.

Note that you will need to put Anarchism above Chiefdom so it appears before it on the civic list. I also think you will need to edit the Civilization files to have them start out with Anarchism instead of Chiefdom.

In short these will have to be changes you do since its all "scrambly" when i try to edit the core Civics.

 

[strategyonly]

Yeah the city amount for Anarchism would depend upon what you chnage the other civics to be. I say go for it.

Note that you will need to put Anarchism above Chiefdom so it appears before it on the civic list. I also think you will need to edit the Civilization files to have them start out with Anarchism instead of Chiefdom.

In short these will have to be changes you do since its all "scrambly" when i try to edit the core Civics.

I agree, i thought i had VineFynn working to fix this scrambled civic XML file, but no word from him lately?

HUH i thought you were going to do it

 

[Hydromancerx]

HUH i thought you were going to do it

For some reason when I try to open the Civic files its all scrambled. Here is the code i wiped up quick for Anarchism. I just cannot add it to the file without it messing up. You will need to put the right button location.

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_ANARCHISM</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_ANARCHISM</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_ANARCHISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_ANARCHISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/Anarchism.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/RoM_Civic_Atlas.dds,8,1</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>0</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>80</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>80</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>0</iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>
<iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>80</iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>
<iCorporationMaintenanceModifier>0</iCorporationMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<iExpInBorderModifier>0</iExpInBorderModifier>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iCivicHappiness>-5</iCivicHappiness>
<bNoCapitalUnhappiness>0</bNoCapitalUnhappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<bNoCorporations>0</bNoCorporations>
<bNoForeignCorporations>0</bNoForeignCorporations>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers>
<iYield>0</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
</CapitalYieldModifiers>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<BuildingHealthChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<!-- Revolution Mod Start -->
<bUpgradeAnywhere>0</bUpgradeAnywhere>
<bAllowInquisitions>0</bAllowInquisitions>
<bDisallowInquisitions>0</bDisallowInquisitions>
<iRevIdxLocal>4</iRevIdxLocal>
<iRevIdxNational>4</iRevIdxNational>
<iRevIdxDistanceModifier>40</iRevIdxDistanceModifier>
<iRevIdxHolyCityGood>0</iRevIdxHolyCityGood>
<iRevIdxHolyCityBad>0</iRevIdxHolyCityBad>
<iRevIdxSwitchTo>80</iRevIdxSwitchTo>
<fRevIdxNationalityMod>0</fRevIdxNationalityMod>
<fRevIdxBadReligionMod>0</fRevIdxBadReligionMod>
<fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>0</fRevIdxGoodReligionMod>
<fRevViolentMod>-0.6</fRevViolentMod>
<iRevReligiousFreedom>0</iRevReligiousFreedom>
<iRevLaborFreedom>0</iRevLaborFreedom>
<iRevEnvironmentalProtection>0</iRevEnvironmentalProtection>
<iRevDemocracyLevel>-20</iRevDemocracyLevel>
<bCommunism>0</bCommunism>
<bFreeSpeech>0</bFreeSpeech>
<bCanDoElection>0</bCanDoElection>
<!-- Revolution Mod End -->
<bFixedBorders>0</bFixedBorders>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
<iCityLimit>3</iCityLimit>
</CivicInfo>

Also all the civs (in CIV4CivilizationInfos) will have to be changed to this ...

			<InitialCivics>
				<CivicType>[B]CIVIC_ANARCHISM[/B]</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_OLIGARCHY</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_TRIBAL</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_BARTER</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_FOLKLORE</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_SURVIVAL</CivicType>				
			</InitialCivics>

I hope this helps.

 

[Koshling]

Distance is a rough measure - travel time would be better. After all it is usely easier to communicate up and down a river than over mountains.

If it can be specified it can be done. Distance is super-trivial, travel time a bit harder but not much. Both are extra work for the ai (especially travel time since the ai would have to realize it needed to start building roads before founding the cities they lead to potentially). Overall it's ai issues that make me hesitate about this sort of thing.

On the general point, I personally like city limits, BUT I one suggestion I would make would be that it isn't PURELY based on civics. Rather make it civic plus tech, so that civics have a base restriction, but certain techs can relieve it. As an example, you could have a tech 'fealty' which had the effect of weakening the restriction on city count for monarchy say. More generally techs could provide modifiers to the city limits, so as you get (say) better communication techs (whatever allows paved roads perhaps as one example) the limits go up. There are still civic governed baselines, but they become softer through mediation by other factors (technical advancement).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also since we are on the subject of civic it would probably be good to have something before Tribal, Barter and Folklore.

Tribal (Civic) = Tribal (Tech)
Barter (Civic) = Barter (Tech)
Folklore (Civic) = Folklore (Tech) [Need to Make]

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If it can be specified it can be done. Distance is super-trivial, travel time a bit harder but not much. Both are extra work for the ai (especially travel time since the ai would have to realize it needed to start building roads before founding the cities they lead to potentially). Overall it's ai issues that make me hesitate about this sort of thing.

On the general point, I personally like city limits, BUT I one suggestion I would make would be that it isn't PURELY based on civics. Rather make it civic plus tech, so that civics have a base restriction, but certain techs can relieve it. As an example, you could have a tech 'fealty' which had the effect of weakening the restriction on city count for monarchy say. More generally techs could provide modifiers to the city limits, so as you get (say) better communication techs (whatever allows paved roads perhaps as one example) the limits go up. There are still civic governed baselines, but they become softer through mediation by other factors (technical advancement).

I would like some variation based on buildings also.

Also since we are on the subject of civic it would probably be good to have something before Tribal, Barter and Folklore.

Tribal (Civic) = Tribal (Tech)
Barter (Civic) = Barter (Tech)
Folklore (Civic) = Folklore (Tech) [Need to Make]

Don't like the idea of yet another prehistoric/Ancient tech