City Limitations via Civics

[strategyonly]

Don't like the idea of yet another prehistoric/Ancient tech

I would have to agree here, Preh and Ancient are pretty much etched in stone.

 

[Vokarya]

I would like some variation based on buildings also.



Don't like the idea of yet another prehistoric/Ancient tech

You could have Folklore civic be available at Ritualism or Cultural Identity. Oral Tradition is where Storyteller's Hut is first buildable, but that might be too early in the tech tree. On the other hand, I find that my Cave Dwelling Golden Age gets used only to change from Ignorance to Oral Tradition, so it might not be bad to have a second really early civic.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here are some early civics ....

Primitive (Society)

• +2 in All Cities
• Cities Require 75% More to Grow
• -30%

No Ownership (Economy)

• No Foreign Trade Routes
• Corporations have no Effect
• No Inflation
• -50% All Trade Routes
• -20% in All Cities
• -1 Cottage, Hamlet Village, Town

This needs a better name. What's the name for the Native American concept of no ownership where the land and things cannot be owned by any individual or government. it just is there for all to take from and give back too. Note this is not say communism where everything is own by the state. This is like the most primitive for of no wealth since there is no concept of wealth.

Non-Religious (Religion)

• No State Religion
• -25%

This probably needs a better name. Note this would be pre-folklore. Not quite atheism either. Just no concept of religion or spirituality yet.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Don't like the idea of yet another prehistoric/Ancient tech

I already have had planned Music and Dance related techs. Folklore or Folk Music or Folk Dance was going to be an ancient era tech. Then I would work my way up. You can see of my old AND/RoM ideas here, here, here and here.

 

[Vokarya]

OK, from a few post that i have been reading lately, there seems to be a "concern" that the new City Limits that were placed in the Civics area of this mod, are to limited?

OK what i need to know is:
1. Do you want City Limits like they are now?
2. Do you want them to be raised "a little?"
3. Do you want City Limits at ALL?
4. Whats your opinion(s)?

OK, I need a Pro's and Con's from people that are really getting into this mod, Pls, and thx for playing this mod

I like having city limits, but I do agree that it should scale with map size (especially for Quests) and buildings. What if Courthouse made it so that the city that has it doesn't count against the founded limit?

I find that I get to my 3 cities in the early game, then once I have Sedentary Lifestyle + Agriculture + Archery, beeline to Monarchy and jump to 12. I often get way bigger than the AI does (on Noble), so I'm not sure if the AI is quite understanding how important it is to get out of Chiefdom.

 

[BlueGenie]

I'm not a fan of city limits. My opinion is to take it out completely or add an Option in Custom Game to have or not have City Limits.

Cheers

 

[EldrinFal]

Here are some early civics ....

Primitive (Society)

• +2 in All Cities
• Cities Require 75% More to Grow
• -30%

No Ownership (Economy)

• No Foreign Trade Routes
• Corporations have no Effect
• No Inflation
• -50% All Trade Routes
• -20% in All Cities
• -1 Cottage, Hamlet Village, Town

This needs a better name. What's the name for the Native American concept of no ownership where the land and things cannot be owned by any individual or government. it just is there for all to take from and give back too. Note this is not say communism where everything is own by the state. This is like the most primitive for of no wealth since there is no concept of wealth.

Non-Religious (Religion)

• No State Religion
• -25%

This probably needs a better name. Note this would be pre-folklore. Not quite atheism either. Just no concept of religion or spirituality yet.

In this article it is something like Communal Ownership:

Spoiler :

Native American Concept of Land
A major factor in the treaty disputes was Native Americans' concept of land. Indians fought among themselves over hunting rights to the territory but the Native American idea of "right" to the land was very different from the legalistic and individual nature of European ownership. John Alexander Williams describes this in his book, West Virginia: A History for Beginners:

The Indians had no concept of "private property," as applied to the land. Only among the Delawares was it customary for families, during certain times of the year, to be assigned specific hunting territories. Apparently this was an unusual practice, not found among other Indians. Certainly, the idea of an individual having exclusive use of a particular piece of land was completely strange to Native Americans.

The Indians practiced communal land ownership. That is, the entire community owned the land upon which it lived. . . .

http://www.wvculture.org/history/indland.html

 

[Hydromancerx]

@EldrinFal

Yeah that's what I am talking about. Is there a specific word for that? Even if its some sort of Native American word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership

I just want to make sure its different from communism since there is a distinct difference.

 

[strategyonly]

@EldrinFal

Yeah that's what I am talking about. Is there a specific word for that? Even if its some sort of Native American word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership

I just want to make sure its different from communism since there is a distinct difference.

Try this then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States

 

[EldrinFal]

@EldrinFal

Yeah that's what I am talking about. Is there a specific word for that? Even if its some sort of Native American word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership

I just want to make sure its different from communism since there is a distinct difference.

Here is one reference calling it "Communalism." And yes, that is grammatically close to "Communism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism

I'm not sure if that is a government as much as it is a philosophy. A search in Wikipedia names "Band Society" as the first
kind of human organization/grouping. This page also compares them against tribes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_societies

Spoiler :

A band society is the simplest form of human society. A band generally consists of a small kin group, no larger than an extended family or clan; it has been defined as consisting of no more than 30 to 50 individuals.[1]

Bands have a loose organization. Their power structure is often egalitarian and has informal leadership; the older members of the band generally are looked to for guidance and advice, and decisions are often made on a consensus basis,[2] but there are no written laws and none of the specialised coercive roles (e.g., police) typically seen in more complex societies. Bands' customs are almost always transmitted orally. Formal social institutions are few or non-existent. Religion is generally based on family tradition, individual experience, or counsel from a shaman. All known band societies hunt and gather to obtain their subsistence.

In his 1972 study, The Notion of the Tribe, Morton Fried defined bands as small, mobile, and fluid social formations with weak leadership that do not generate surpluses, pay taxes or support a standing army.

Bands are distinguished from tribes in that tribes are generally larger, consisting of many families. Tribes have more social institutions, such as a chief, big man, or elders. Tribes are also more permanent than bands; a band can cease to exist if only a small group walks out. Many tribes are sub-divided into bands. Historically, some tribes were formed from bands that came together from time to time for religious ceremonies, hunting, or warfare.[3] Among the Native Americans of the United States and the First Nations of Canada, some tribes are made up of official bands that live in specific locations, such as the various bands of the Ojibwa tribe.

Band societies historically were found throughout the world, in a variety of climates, but generally in sparsely populated areas.[3] With the spread of the modern nation-state around the globe, there are few true band societies left. Some historic examples include the Shoshone of the Great Basin in the United States, the Bushmen of southern Africa, the pygmies (Mbuti) of the Ituri Rainforest in Africa, and some groups of indigenous Australians.

 

[lordfistas]

Maybe better way is put this limits to Techs? Now we don't have big choice, only Democracy, Federalism and Fascism

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here is one reference calling it "Communalism." And yes, that is grammatically close to "Communism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism

I'm not sure if that is a government as much as it is a philosophy. A search in Wikipedia names "Band Society" as the first
kind of human organization/grouping. This page also compares them against tribes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_societies

Yeah i noticed that too. I suppose that "Communalism" is the closest example. And it would be under "Economy" so it probably would fit.

 

[ThoricFrame]

I kind of like the city limits, I'm currently playing a game on deity (no scaling difficulty, hard as hell) and having the limits gave me time to catch up a little. The AI starting with two cities is a huge advantage when the tribe unit is so far down the tech tree.

Having the limits in place also helps to prevent you from teching up too quickly if your neighbors are a little lax about expanding.

I find the AI doesn't have a problem with the limits already in place, and several times have had two settlers already in place for when they switch to a higher limit.

 

[DRJ]

First I liked city limits. But now I think city limits are not really helping the flow of the game at least in early times. Instead of having civics set city limits, let techs do it. Right now, I think its a pain in the donkey to get to Despotism, to have more than 3 cities. After the initial 3 you really can't build one for a long, long time, which makes me, playing on deity, want to take a few cities by force in the meantime as if i don't the AI runs away in points and often gets Sedentary first and then runs even further away. So what about having Sedentary Livestyle give you the possibility to build 3 more cities? Next step would be Plough maybe, then City Planning, then Surveying etc.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So far it would seem those voicing opinions have reservations about City Limits. And several have voiced what I said No Limits. With another large group saying "if" Limits are kept, for them to be expanded.

I will again say that, again, "if" the consensus/Modder's decision is to keep Limits that they should End at Monarchy and ALL other Gov't Civics above Mon be Unrestricted, No Limits.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

So far it would seem those voicing opinions have reservations about City Limits. And several have voiced what I said No Limits. With another large group saying "if" Limits are kept, for them to be expanded.

I will again say that, again, "if" the consensus/Modder's decision is to keep Limits that they should End at Monarchy and ALL other Gov't Civics above Mon be Unrestricted, No Limits.

JosEPh

That seems reasonable. I think they have basically served their purpose after monarchy.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Added 4 NEW civics to the SVN.

- Anarchism (Government)
- Primitive (Society)
- Communalism (Economy)
- Irreligion (Religion)

 

[velosepappe]

I have an idea to change the city limitations of civics. Change the creation of a settler to something that puts your civ into anarchy for a certain amount of turns (forced collection of individuals for relocation creates unrest), after which a settler is created. I dont know if this is possible but I see a few pros to this. It encourages us to not create cities too quickly after eachother because the chance of revolutions grows quickly if REV is used. Also with anarchy your civ isnt making any progress so you could get behind in the technology race. And you still have your maintainance cost of your new city. So all in all you seriously diminish city founding without using any artificial restrictions, in a more historical way.

 

[strategyonly]

OK here's what i changed them to:

Changed Civics Limitations and some war weariness:

Anarchism (5) - Chiefdom (8) - Despotism (11) - Monarchy (17) - Republic (20) - the rest (Unlimited)

War weariness decreased in Democracy/Federal to: +50%/+75%

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's a start,........ and more testing will help define it some more.

JosEPh