Edit: nevermind, going different route.
City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)
- Thread starter Gazebo
- Start date
V11 feedback (large continents+, emperor, epic, 27 CS, no DLL):
- the School of Scribes change works well - science doesn't fast forward anymore, especially for wide empires,
- rushing Patronage trade routes is no longer a solid strategy to dominate CS by gathering hundreds of free influence for the late-game,
- Diplomatic Immunity is availible too far in the game - it could be made availible eariler, as diplomats can really have a hard time reaching their destination and by theme, they were not touched en route since medieval times for sure, and perhaps the custom is even older (you'll know better than me),
- either way, water movement of diplomats is atrocious and makes english UA very strong for diplomacy on maps with water, because that's one of the only things that can speed them up while embarked,
- Forum Romanum is placed in a way that makes it hard to build as a diplomatic player, especially since two other early utility wonders are important (Collosus and perhaps the Great Lighthouse) - this is off, because other victory types are aided by fewer wonders in early eras - Science makes use of Great Library and perhaps the Oracle, while Culture could make use of Parthenon, though it is far from required. On the other hand, Forum Romanum is very good (not many other wonders are this good for their victory paths). Shouldn't it perhaps be with Philosophy, Drama and Poetry or Construction?
- Venice is no longer overpowered at diplomacy,
- desert-bias and religious civs are now much better at diplomacy, since religion is competitive,
- England is the new diplomatic power due to the additional spy, better movement of diplomats on water and because of gunboat diplomacy, but nowhere near as good as Venice was,
- gunboat diplomacy might be too good right now (especially compared to Liberty stuff), but this requires more testing. I will comment on this at a later date.
- the difference between having diplomatic wonders and not is extreme. Also, diplomats built in cities that don't have the unique wonder promotions are garbage compared to those built in the city that has them. Essentially, a capital is a diplomatic factory, which is ok, both mechanically and thematically, but the difference is still a little extreme.
The numbers look fine right now (I can tell more after more than one game), but I need to test the .dll version, as the AIs, while interacting with CS more or less properly make an effort to take some of them (due to the lack of influence bloat from trade routes), can't understand that they might need to send diplomats to not only become an ally of a CS, but also secure it with something extra. Also, AIs don't have any idea how to coordinate in the world congress, so nothing new here. This could however be easily remedied if all AIs tried to take at least some CS to have leverage when they want to revoke something that breaks their plan.
Ideas:
- Guy who makes BNW Enhanced Unique Abilities for all Civs coded some awesome stuff that would be very cool if it was actually implemented into policies / wonders instead of civ UA. His Siam trait (CS are not angry at your units) would greatly improve the active part of diplomacy, when implemented somewhere else than a civ UA.
- Not mine, but from a thread I've seen (not on civ fanatics, so I'm hesitant to link it) - the idea was basically that for diplomacy to be more fun and balanced additional proposals for the World Congress need to be made. I don't know if it's within the scope of the mod, but adding some stuff like Liberate City, Foreign Aid, World Health organisation and some other proposals beside the standard few would certainly add depth. This would actually shake things a bit, because right now it's mostly voting / revoking Scholars in Residence, Army Tax, Arts / Science Funding, World Religion and Ideology, one-time stuff (World's Fair etc.) and perhaps Embargos, and AIs are not particulary good at this.
- Allow diplo units to gain promotions that were wonder-exclusive (or a bit weaker versions of those promotions) an era or two after the wonder via a regular building or a national wonder.
Excellent. I'll discuss each point-by-point:
1.) I agree (Scribe)
2.) I agree (trade routes w/ Patronage)
3.) You can get Diplomatic Immunity if you get the Summer Palace wonder. This gives the player that gets it an era of free travel across borders (unlike other civs). I think, gameplay-wise, it is nice to have the medieval/renaissance diplomatic difficulty of needing friendly neighbors to send diplomats through their lands. Otherwise, what's the point of Open Borders for peaceful, diplomatic civs?.
4.) I addressed water movement in v12- units should now get equivalent moves on water to their on land moves. England will still be +2, but it'll be +2 on top of 8/8 Movement by the end of the game (with all wonders). If it is not working, let me know.
5.) I placed the Forum their originally to try to balance the location of wonders in the early game. There are not a lot of wonders in the classical era, specifically in the bottom half of the tree. I might move it to construction, though that would pile a lot of wonders on one tech.
6.) Venice is indeed more balanced
7.) Good re: desert and religion
8.) England: but shouldn't they be the best at diplomacy and soft power? It was their thing (and gives England a niche that they otherwise lack in the game).
9.) I've considered updating gunboat diplomacy, but it is a very specific strategy that has its own drawbacks
10.) Diplomatic Wonders are supposed to give a slight boost over time, rather than a game-winning boost (much like the Great Library, etc.). I didn't want them to be necessary, but rather an incentive. That said, I may bump their influence % gain a bit. Also, the capital should be a diplomatic factory - production should be centered on the national wonders. This is by design.
11.) The .dll makes the AI much more intelligent, and addresses their problems.
Ideas:
1.) I'll look into enhanced unique abilities. Could be fun.
2.) This is a planned addition (more world congress stuff) depending on my time and the level of interest of mod users. I want to specifically target city-state-related stuff, but we'll see.
3.) Not a bad idea, but it does limit the purpose of world wonders further.
Thanks again!
G
One thing I've really thought about when playing v12 today was that I think influence from the units diplomatic actions are rather low. Early on you get only 25 influence points making it almost impossible to create units fast enough to keep up good relations. Instead of giving from 25 to 40 influence depending on the unit type I'd say at least 30 to 45.
And another thing is that I think the mod kicks in too late. I really don't like the move from Writing to Philosophy as it takes way too long time (playing Marathon) before I get to use this great mod.
More gaming to do now
\Skodkim
And another thing is that I think the mod kicks in too late. I really don't like the move from Writing to Philosophy as it takes way too long time (playing Marathon) before I get to use this great mod.
More gaming to do now
\Skodkim
One thing I've really thought about when playing v12 today was that I think influence from the units diplomatic actions are rather low. Early on you get only 25 influence points making it almost impossible to create units fast enough to keep up good relations. Instead of giving from 25 to 40 influence depending on the unit type I'd say at least 30 to 45.
And another thing is that I think the mod kicks in too late. I really don't like the move from Writing to Philosophy as it takes way too long time (playing Marathon) before I get to use this great mod.
More gaming to do now
\Skodkim
The low influence early on is by design. My design was:
1.) Emissary - only one, for emergencies/quick boosts only, force players to focus on c-s quests
2.) Envoy - you get two, so you can begin to reliably build relations with 1-2 city-states. Comes with ocean embark, so you can sail around mean civs and/or get isolated city-states if you want. Quests gradually less important.
3.) Diplomat - three, so now you can really get the influence rolling. More expensive, so players that have not focused on building diplo buildings or national wonders will be at a great advantage. This is the moment of 'divergence' between a casual friend of city-states and a player going for a diplomatic victory. City-State quests now truly optional. Let the bullying/manipulation begin.
4.) Amabassador, you get four, and they are super expensive. If you have avoided diplomacy thus far, it will be very hard to catch up. City-States are now pawns to be fought over, their interests/quests no longer really matter.
Edit: yeah, I should move them back to writing. Philosophy takes longer and longer for me to get to each game.
The idea sounds nice but I still think its too low - I'd really prefer a small boost. It takes way to many missions to befriend/ally a cs right now (especially since influence declines a lot while building the next one).
Edit: yeah, I should move them back to writing. Philosophy takes longer and longer for me to get to each game.
Agree! Furthermore it matches the School of Scribes from Mathematics far better.
\Skodkim
I'll give it a shot. I'll bump influence rates by 10% for all units, just to see how it goes.
Big breakthrough tonight: World Congress Resolutions!
Three in the works (Code below- to sleepy to type out):
For brave souls, v12 with dll and new resolutions below...
Three in the works (Code below- to sleepy to type out):
Code:
<Language_en_US>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_RESOLUTION_SOI">
<Text>Demand a Sphere of Influence</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_RESOLUTION_SOI_HELP">
<Text>Demand a Sphere of Influence over a City-State. If successful, your [ICON_INFLUENCE] Influence will become 150 with the City-State.</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_RESOLUTION_DECOLONIZATION">
<Text>Enforce Decolonization</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_RESOLUTION_DECOLONIZATION_HELP">
<Text>Enforce decolonization on a City-State. If successful, the ally of the City State will have their [ICON_INFLUENCE] Influence lowered to 50 with the City-State.</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_RESOLUTION_OPEN_DOOR">
<Text>Enact an Open Door Policy</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_RESOLUTION_OPEN_DOOR_HELP">
<Text>Enact an Open Door policy for a City-State. If successful, all civilizations will have their [ICON_INFLUENCE] Influence set at 40 with the City-State.</Text>
</Row>
</Language_en_US>For brave souls, v12 with dll and new resolutions below...
sounds exciting! did you include the changes to missions and tech prereqs we discussed as well?
Playing with the old v12 (modified after my suggestions) and enjoying it!
\Skodkim
Darkwave09
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2013
- Messages
- 12
those resolutions look cool, any more on the way? As a side note I'm finding the Warsaw pact too powerful, any plans o reduce its strength. If not how do I reduce its strength myself. I know nothing about mods. Thanks
What version are you using? It was reduced from 50%-->30% in v12.
Yeah, I shuffled some things around and bumped influence by 10% for all units. Should result in 5 more influence per unit at a base level. (so Emissary is now the same as the old Envoy, Envoy as old Diplomat, and Diplomat as old Ambassador).
Going to try to push out v13 tonight- doing some final bugtesting on the resolutions and updating tooltips. Heading out of town for the week, so I'd rather not leave v13 half-finished.
G
Alright, v13 is here! The world congress resolutions are working perfectly, and the other tweaks discussed since v12 have been implemented. I'll be absent from the forums over the holiday, so hold on to your v12 in the event that something is horribly awry with v13.
v13:
- Added three new world congress resolutions (Open Door, Sphere of Influence and Decolonization)
There is probably more work to do (i.e. I need to make sure that the AI understands what these do. If anyone wants to assist with that, I'd appreciate it. I'm stretching my limited c++ knowledge as it is.
As Whoward will note from the message I sent him, I tried to add a minor civ quest relating to diplomatic units, but I could not get it to work. The coding for it is tricky and elusive (tying a quest to the use of a unit in a particular spot is not simple) and, upon second thought, I'm not sure I like the idea of a minor civ giving a quest to send a diplomatic unit to it (which would give influence anyways). Seems a bit too...straightforward. I'm more interested in the world congress for now.
I hope you like the update, and have a great holiday.
G
v13:
- Added three new world congress resolutions (Open Door, Sphere of Influence and Decolonization)
Open Door: All civs gain 40 influence with the target city-state.
Sphere of Influence: the proposer gains 150 influence with the target city-state.
Decolonization: the ally of the proposer's chosen city state has their influence reduced to 50.
- I also edited the Forum Romanum to grant gold per trade route instead of flat gold and tweaked the techs/influence gain from diplo units. See page 1 for more on this.
There is probably more work to do (i.e. I need to make sure that the AI understands what these do. If anyone wants to assist with that, I'd appreciate it. I'm stretching my limited c++ knowledge as it is.
As Whoward will note from the message I sent him, I tried to add a minor civ quest relating to diplomatic units, but I could not get it to work. The coding for it is tricky and elusive (tying a quest to the use of a unit in a particular spot is not simple) and, upon second thought, I'm not sure I like the idea of a minor civ giving a quest to send a diplomatic unit to it (which would give influence anyways). Seems a bit too...straightforward. I'm more interested in the world congress for now.
I hope you like the update, and have a great holiday.
G
Darkwave09
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2013
- Messages
- 12
V 13 is great. I noticed the reduction in the Warsaw pact which is nice. The changes to Forum Romanum wonder are great too. I only have one complaint, buying diplomatic units for cash is the same as giving city states money IMO. In the new version I do this all time, I rarely build diplo units anymore. I just buy them. In the previous version I liked the fact that I had to build each unit. Means I had to find a balance between wonders, military, buildings and diplomacy. Maybe on higher difficulties you could remove the buying diplo units for cash option. Keep up the great work I love the new resolutions
Good suggestions. I'll look at unit prices this weekend. I don't mind having diplomatic units available for purchase, as all units can be bought (and you still have to move them to their target). I'll raise the cost though, to minimize potential abuse.
Has anyone seen the AI using the new resolutions? I've seen it once, but I wonder how intelligently they'll use them (also how they will respond to them being chosen). It may require another dive into the dll.
G
Darkwave09
Chieftain
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I still think removing cash purchasing should be eliminated at higher levels. If not then,make them so expensive to purchase at immortal or deity that it's not worth it. IMO this units should be valuable prizes to be guarded extensively at higher levels.
You can't remove purchasing of specific units on specific difficulty levels. You can only
- Remove it for CSD units on all levels
- Adjust costs for ALL units based on level
- Increase costs of CSD units on all levels.
I'd definately go for ad 3.
\Skodkim
Unfortunately, Skodkim is correct. I can, however, look into making it an SQL option so that players can make a choice. Ultimately, I view gold purchasing of units and buildings as an acceptable alternative to direct gold gifts, as it still requires the player to move the unit to the city-state. Furthermore, it would be a bit odd for all other units in the game (including great people with faith) to be purchasable except for diplomatic units.
That said, I might also look into making the purchase of diplomatic units with faith a perk of finishing the Patronage Policy Tree. Makes sense, compared to other great people. Thoughts?
G
Darkwave09
Chieftain
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I think the piety tree would be better. A added incentive to get that policy tree. I think the patronage policy tree is powerful enough already. Too bad about not increasing unit cost at higher levels. I still think buying dilpo units for cash is still the same as giving a cash gift. Big deal if I have to move the unit, I know there is a happy medium somewhere. This mod is so well done, I have faith
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