[NFP] City-States Elimination Thread

[TCBB]

Guys guys, there’s a whole load of votes not being taken into account here. Brussels should be on 15 (post #176), Buenos Aires on 12 (same), Lahore on 21 (#175 and 180). Might be others I’ve missed too.

 

[CoconutTank]

Standings up to date (including Sirsquier's votes).

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [12]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [14]
Granada [10]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [17]
La Venta [17]
Lahore [21]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [21]
Yerevan [25]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[kryat]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [13] (12+1) Maybe people haven’t been paying attention lately, but coastal cities have had numerous boosts over the years and are pretty amazing, especially river mouth cities. They consistently have higher population (able to work more tiles quickly), they have better initial trade yields (more efficient tiles), and have multiple means of getting fantastic production (dams, aqueducts, IZ bonuses, and doubling adjacency for shipyards and coal plants). Auckland just accelerates all of this because you’re working those tiles anyway). Its not uncommon for Auckland to add 10-20+ production to multiple cities. That’s huge.
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [14]
Granada [7] (10-7) I agree that the Alcazar is pretty meh. It’s hard to build to get the science. And forts are very situational.
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [17]
La Venta [17]
Lahore [21]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [21]
Yerevan [25]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Amrunril]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [14] (13 + 1) Even if you think coastal cities are weak (and I don't think this is the case anymore), expansion is too important in Civ VI for it to make sense to actively avoid them. And if you do end up with cities near costs, they're presumably going to be working sea resources and reefs. Even if all you're getting is +1 production on those tiles that's more than most city states will give you in the early game. And if you're actively pursuing a harbor-based economic strategy, it gets even better. The additional production boost in the industrial era, and the synergistic one from shipyards, do come late in the game, but they're merely turning a strong bonus into an amazing one. They're not by any means necessary for this city state to be effective.
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11] (14-3) I suppose this comes down partly to questions about how to incorporate the AI's behavior in discussing game mechanics. My view is that the underlying mechanics should be evaluated on their own merits, separately from the AI's (in)ability to deal with them. Thus, I'd argue that the AI's low probability of declaring war to deny this bonus and its willingness to make peace 10 turns later are evidence of the AI's weakness, not evidence against this bonus being fragile.
Granada [7]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [17]
La Venta [17]
Lahore [21]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [21]
Yerevan [25]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[hhhhhh]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15] (14 + 1) I decide to show Auckland some love. Early game +1 production and late game +2 production is quite non-trivial for coastal cities. Especially when you work some fishing boats, fisheries or Mausoleum tiles.
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [7]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [17]
La Venta [17]
Lahore [21]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18] (21 - 3) I'm against using faith to buy walls - walls if you planned well can get +100% production with a policy. All you need to have is some awareness of potential attacks. And if you get Monumentality Golden Age it's better to use faith to buy builders and settlers (I even avoid buying trader with faith since there's no discount for this).
Yerevan [25]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[JJOne]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [7]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18] (17+1) The worse you are at culture, the better this bonus gets.
La Venta [17]
Lahore [21]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [22] (25-3) What if you don't find it in the first 20 turns? And you won't have that religion to really use it.
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Chefofrats]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [4] (7-3) - I never find forts useful at all, the culture bonus is nothing special, and the chance to get science on top of the measly culture is small. It's not a terrible CS but I do not love it.
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [17]
Lahore [22] (21+1) - the Nihang is cheap and powerful, like a mask against spreading Covid. And like wearing masks, it can be a game-changer.
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [22]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [15]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [5] (4+1) - The yield of the UI is fantastic, 2 culture and 1~2 science, can be built on hills, an enhanced version of Sumeria Ziggurats. Though cannot be adj to each other, this is still a game changer.
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [14](17-3) This UI doesn't look good . Adj bonus from forest/jungle faces a lot of problems. 1: Chopping yields more, and is also more instant. 2: Forest Fire will damage or destroy improvements, and you shall wait a lot of turns before you can fix them.
Lahore [22]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [22]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Baigan]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [12] 15-3 How in the world is this still here? Seems like this has gone overlooked. Some wonders are worth chasing but far more often they're production traps. Even in Cultural victories wonders aren't all that important unless you're China. Better to put that production toward Theater Square projects, if anything. (RIP in pieces, Hong Kong.) Theoretically you can stack Brussels + Autocracy + policy card for a 45% boost (or 60% with Monument to the Gods pantheon before Medieval era) to feel good about yourself... but that does nothing to actually help you win the game.
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [5]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [15] 14+1 Spammable UI that directly helps you win a Culture game after Flight and indirectly helps by giving the Faith you'll need for Rock Bands and Naturalists without investing in Holy Sites or terrain-based pantheons. Not as good as Rapa Nui but arguably better than Caguana. After all, after a certain point, increasing your culture even more doesn't actually help you win faster. But buying more Rock Bands does.
Lahore [22]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [22]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[monikernemo]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13] (12 +1)
It is a stretch to say that wonders are not important.
Early game key wonders are built by chops. The fewer chops you use for key early game wonders the more chops you have for other infrastructure in your empire.
Late game wonders can often shave quite a number of turns off the game
(Late game oxford university in a space race, or Bolshoi theatre giving you that last few civics in a space race)
Wonders are also important in diplomatic victory timing and these wonders span across different eras.
Fast RV - Hagia Sophia and Mahabodhi Temple is relevant.
Lastly for culture victories, if pursuing a relic related strategy - Mont Saint Michel, St Basil Cathedral and Cristo Redentor is quite important for CV (and they span across different eras), Eiffel tower and Golden Gate Bridge is very good for seaside resorts or any appeal based tourism improvements.
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [5]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [15]
Lahore [22]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [19] (22 - 3) And the issue with Yerevan is that is so specific to two victory types (religious and lesser extent, culture) you almost forget about it if you are going for a science, diplomatic or domination or a non-relic based culture victory.
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [5]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12] (15-3) This is partly a matter of how I think the game should be played. To me, spamming one tile improvement over and over to achieve a fast tourism victory is cheesing the game. Used as they should be, i.e. placed strategically next to rainforests or woods, Colossal Heads are fine but hardly brilliant. It's only the fact they can be spammed literally everywhere that makes people rave about them.
Lahore [22]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [20] (19+1) Doesn't matter that Yerevan only serves one victory type. From everything that OP and others have said, we're not judging on generalist grounds *only*. Just as Colossal Heads or Moai serve one victory type, tourism, so does Yerevan only serve religion – however, the sheer impact Yerevan has on religion makes it by far the best specialised city-state on the board. C'mon guys, if there were ever a city-state that deserves to go straight into S Tier, it is Yerevan.
Zanzibar [21]

 

[JhGf_123]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [19]
Geneva [11]
Granada [5]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19] (22-3) Getting hard to choose who to downvote. Nihang are good, but it strikes me that there’s some hyperbole going on here. They only really work in specific windows according to their power spikes: eg. the jump from swordsman strength unit to Musketman strength unit. If you don’t time those windows, they’re just another unit. And think about the investment you need to profit: (1) gain suzerainty of Lahore, which requires culture for envoys/amani, (2) build holy sites or secure some other source of faith, (3) build an encampment, (4) rush the right tech for the next level of encampment building, eg bronze working for barracks, military engineering for armory, (5) build up 200 faith and purchase one, (6) build or purchase the next level of encampment building. That’s not exactly a simple process; there several unsynergised strands pulling in different directions - culture, faith, technology, production, encampments - which you need to navigate before you can benefit. Compare that with some of the bonuses here where you get to profit from instantly: Zanzibar gives instant amenities, no fuss required; Yerevan gives instant OP apostles, no technology or secondary districts required; Bologna gives instant source of great people points. TL;DR: Nihang are good, but they require more investment and timing than people are accounting for.
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [20]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [21] (20+1) my second vote for them in a row, I know, but I have strong feelings about this. Lots of these city states have great bonuses that contribute to your empire generally. But point out another CS that gives such a direct boost to a victory condition as Yerevan.
Zanzibar [21]

 

[TCBB]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [23]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20] (19+1) See comments below. You only need one per city to get good value out of it.
Geneva [11]
Granada [5]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [17] (20-3) As was said for Colossal Heads, Moai are only good when spammed everywhere. But if you're doing that, then you're crippling you cities in other ways – no food, no production, etc. The Cahokia Mound is different, because you only need one to gain a significant effect and it can be placed on an otherwise useless tile. But I think the power of Colossal Heads and Moai is being slightly exaggerated here.
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [21]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[TMC24601]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24] (23+1) Great people points are always good - Divine Spark but better
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Granada [2] (5-3) I think this unique improvement is too situational, and the bonus is not as good as some of the other City State improvements
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [17]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [21]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Antananarivo [14]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Granada [-1 Eliminated] 2-3 Very weak tile improvement
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [17]
Valletta [18]
Yerevan [22] 21+1 - game changing CS
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Leucarum]

Antananarivo [15] (14+2) The extra yields can definitely stack up
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [20]
Rapa Nui [17]
Valletta [15] (18-3) Situationally useful... Cheap flood barriers and walls aren't bad to get. But there's better at this point
Yerevan [22]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[Solver]

Antananarivo [15]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [17] (20 - 3) You can't move districts, and you have to place them based on existing concerns like adjacency. You cannot really plan coastal districts just because of Nan Madol. It's great if you're Indonesia or if your map happens to have multiple good coastal district locations, but otherwise it's unreliable. In most cases Caguana or Kumasi will boost your culture more.
Rapa Nui [18] (17 + 1) I am not the biggest user of unique improvements, and I like to build more Farms than I should. But of all unique improvements, I find Moai to be the best. Good culture yields that become terrific with a cluster on the right terrain.
Valletta [15]
Yerevan [22]
Zanzibar [21]

 

[hhhhhh]

Bologna is really high but I'm not going to downvote it - no one hates Bologna.
Valletta seems to be in a good place at 15.
Most of the remaining culture city states are very good.

Antananarivo [15]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [12]
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [17]
Rapa Nui [19] (18 + 1) I think people have some misunderstanding of Rapa Nui and think it's only usable if you "spam". Not true. It's a great improvement even for science games, all you need to do is build some Moai triangles - each triangle is +6 (inland) or +8-9 (coastal) culture before Medieval Faires, and +9 or +11-12 after that. Even more if you have just one volcanic soil in that triangle (instant +6). What people who despise Moai may not realize is how hard mid-game culture it is to come by. With 6 builder charges (that's one builder if you have the Pyramids) you get like +20 culture, which is as good as Goddess of Festivals when you have lots of plantation. Think about how many production it saves you from putting production into Theatre Square. It also saves you some district slots so you don't have to build Theatre Square - and later when you do need to build, wonders are ready, adjacencies are much better and you can take advantage of the district discount mechanism.
Valletta [15]
Yerevan [19] (22 - 3) Compared to other CS this really have a late impact in your games, although in religious games it can be decisive, you really have to wait until your faith economy is enough for you to buy lots of Apostles for this CS to come into play. Plus the randomly rolled promotions are not that bad either (e.g. if it can convert barbarians then bring it to barbarian land or have it guard your city with neighborhood (in case you build this stupid district))
Zanzibar [21]

 

[kaspergm]

Antananarivo [15]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [17]
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [9] (12-3) There remains several good-but-not-great city states on the board. I pick this one today as the one I care least about among the remaining. Yes the colossal head is a nice tile improvement, but between the limitation of free hexes and builder charges, and many other sources to earn faith, this is not that hot for me.
Lahore [19]
Nan Madol [17]
Rapa Nui [19]
Valletta [16] (15+1) I see a lot of talk about "cheap walls" which I would say should be ridiculously cheap walls, but apart from that is only one of the selling points of this city state. Add in cheap monuments, granaries and water mills the instant you build a city, and you definitely have one of my top favorites city states. And of course then you have the added benefit of instant flood barriers at bargain price also in late game.
Yerevan [19] Will still defend this to the bitter end, but will save my votes for a couples of others til we get further.
Zanzibar [21]

 

[tedhebert]

Antananarivo [15]
Auckland [15]
Bologna [24]
Buenos Aires [12]
Brussels [13]
Caguana [14] (17-3) Really don't understand why this one is still so high... I mean it's close to the same as Granada, except a little more culture and a little less science. I think people here really overvalue culture at the expense of everything else
Cahokia [20]
Geneva [11]
Kabul [15]
Kumasi [18]
La Venta [9]
Lahore [19] Can't believe this has been downvoted before Granada was taken off the grid
Nan Madol [17]
Rapa Nui [19]
Valletta [16]
Yerevan [19]
Zanzibar [22] (21+1) I don't like always voting for the same... I'll keep those recurring votyes for the end... after lahore and Auckland, I think it's time for me to uptick this one. Amenities are not so hard to find, but this is a lot of them