Civ 2 1-pager tech tree

[duke o' york]

Not only will they not have Gunpowder and therefore musketeers to defend your onslaught - they won't have coastal fortresses either. Sounds a lot like total decimation to me!

 

[Nethog]

Quote by starlifter:

Quote by SlowThinker:

I disagree. Conversely be prepared to read this thread periodically and adjust the main text

Good point. However, what I was referring to was that this long "beta" thread is soon done, and his 1.00 version is posted in a brand new thread, which can recieve any future input, corrections, critiques, etc. from people in the future. I've PM'd a few people to help get more folks to take a look at it & make input before he makes it 1.00 .
Then this beta thread will fade off into the sunset

I agree starlifter, let's continue to use this thread for the Beta release of the ref pack, but start a new thread for the 1.0 release and all future feedback. I will do the same over at Aployton. Hopefully the 1.0 release will occur in a week or two.

Quote by SlowThinker:

I watched your thread at Apolyton, but I didn't understand you expanded the work. Maybe you should announce it at Apolyton too, people could help.

I will add a new reply to my thread over at Apolyton and indicate that there have been major changes to the tech tree and other data sheets.

 

[la fayette]

Nethog great work
I have read 0.92
Here are my remarks:

1) City improvements
Offshore platform and Harbor: 'in all (worked) squares'
Colosseum: 'Electronics = 4 unhappy citizens content'

2) Wonders
KRC: 'in all (worked) squares'
Eiffel Tower: 'towards' (spelling)
Isaac (spelling): 'where it is built' (spelling)
SOL: 'governments' (spelling)

3) Units
Pikemen: defence against horse = +1 (not x2; this has been demonstrated by DaveV, the master of ICS , IIRC, ask Sodak if in doubt)
Musketeers: defence = 3 (IIRC)
Freight: would be nice to mention '+50% value of commodity delivered'

 

[Nethog]

I have placed a new Beta 0.93 version of my ref pack on my website at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmm1/games/games.html

I made numerous spelling and format changes. The terrain conversion chart now contains a key!

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by starlifter
But a 7 move Vet Ironclad when the AI does not have GP sounds killer to me!!

The top is to have LH,STWA and Magellan. That is what ironclad lovers like me call 'Super Ironclads'. But, as we say in French: 'le mieux est l'ennemi du bien'.
The most important is to build your ironclads ASAP and prevent yor foes from getting GP.
I would rather have 5 or 6 non vet ironclads at sea 10 or 12 turns sooner and have the gold to rushbuild a few more very quickly than build LH + STWA + Mag (total cost = 900 shields = 15 ironclads).
Anyway, if you don't finish the job in time and an AI civ gets GP, it is good to know that vet ironclads stand a fair chance against vet musketeers or even non vet riflemen. The killer for them is the vet musketeer fortified on a hill or a rivered square. Check that and keep away .

 

[starlifter]

Last summer, we had a GOTM (humans=German) where I sent forth semi-super Ironclads... Magellans and Sun Tzu... I should have had Lighthouse, in retrospect... but I put fast Ironclads on station next to coastal cities, and as soon as the flag popped up (city occupied), the non-gunpowder unit was destroyed by my vet ironclads instantly.... later on, my ground forces would catch up & take the empty cities, LOL... The cool thing was that I had no contact yet, and being in Republic, had no senate issues! Navies can level an empire and the AI does not hold it against you when you finally make first contact!!!

Hmmmm... I might need to give the old lighthouse a little respect, hehe....

 

[Sodak]

Good work, Nethog! I just looked over 0.93 and found a few quibbles:

1) Harbors cost 60 shields, not 80
2) Cathedrals cost 120 shields, not 160
3) Add Submarine special capability: can carry up to 8 missiles
4) Nuclear missile attack value 99 triggers the 9 tile killoff and pollution, it is not actually calculated in combat resolution
5) SDI does not work against suitcase nukes (spy action)

I don't have time right now to read everybody's comments... Forgive me if I'm repeating anybody.

For the last page, this perspective might help to simplify the graphic - the special terrains, as they appear in the terrain1.gif, always remain in the same column, no matter what is done to alter terrain. That is, the fish column special can never be changed to a special in the whale column.

 

[SlowThinker]

Nethog,
After first very quick view I post my suggestions (although the sentences are written in a dictating way ).
Be aware of my weak english.
Quoted text is italic, added parts are bold.
I will continue when I will find some time again.

**********************************************
Engineer
allows terrain transformation. Omit it: This is the property of an engineer, not of the Explosives tech. Your Settlers won't be able to transform even with Explosives.

Democracy
Add: Allows the Democracy government. (similarly other "gov" techs)
special courthouse effect. Omit it: This is the property of the Democracy government, not the tech.
BTW, don't you want to add a table with governments?

**********************************************
CityWalls
Prevents population loss add: after unsuccessful defense.

The Great Wall ... delete: among other functions (cancelled after the discovery of Mettalurgy).
don't double the information, the text should be as brief as possible. I think the reference to The Great Wall is sufficient, the reader will head there naturally if he wants to know more about.

Similarly:
Temple: The Oracle doubles ... until a civ discovers Theology
Cathedral/Granary: Pyramids ...in each city with no upkeep cost. Add a note to the Wonders section that worders have no upkeep cost.
etc.

**********************************************
Barracks: repairs grond units ... within 7x7 sq. of city.
SDI: destroys Nuclear Missiles ... within 3 square radius of the city
Although I tested the barracks only I suppose both ways describe the same area.
3 square radius of the city might be confusing - is the square 3 diag. squares from the city in the RADIUS? What is the "radius"?
Maybe(?): within 7x7 sq. AROUND city
Or add an explanatory note about the radius.

**********************************************
Palace
Zero waste in city that has or builds a Palace.
(See Corruption and waste)

**********************************************
Granary
Add: Only half of a city's food bin is depleted when a city size decreases due to the famine.
More effective in Anarchy,...because these govs cannot grow with WLTxD celebrations. Omit it. All the info in your work is a description of the game rules, in other words a primary information. But this is a secondary information that may be deduced from that rules, a kind of a strategy advice.

**********************************************
SAM/SDI
When combined with SDI/SAM, defence factor of unit is quadrupled against missiles. Omit it. This is self-evident. All the bonuses are combined if not stated otherwise.

SDI
SDI has no effect on attacking fighters or bombers. Omit it. You didn't say the opposite of this, so you needn't to controvert it.

SAM
Doubles the defense...when attacked by air non-missile units.
Exception: Fighter defense is doubled against Missiles. Omit it.
See my table at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22856&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

My table is more accurate than yours "Misc." under combat bonuses. For example there is no special effect for naval vs. naval in city.

**********************************************
Special Capabilities of units
Shorten the description (and add explanatory notes to the end of the Civ2 Units section), terms like "the howitzer flag" are usually used in the scenarios.
Two space visibility replace by see2
Ignores ZOC replace by ZOC
Treats all squares as road replace by explorer
similarly missile, pikeman, SpotSubs etc.

**********************************************
There are two ways how bonuses (+50%, +100%...) are cumulated:
A) The bonus is added to the base
An example: 100 gold, 150g with marketplace, 200g with bank
B) The bonus is added step by step to the partial result
An example: 1 defense factor, 1.5 with veteran status, 2.25 (=1.5x1.5) with forest

Unfortunately the Civ2 (manual, civilopedia) usually don't differentiate these situations at all. (Only the Great Wall bonus vs. barbs is "doubled"). This is very confusing.
You don't have the order in the bonuses too. Sometimes you write Aegis x2 defense vs.air, sometimes veteran +50%, but both examples are the B) type.
I suggest to use the x1.5 way for every B) type.

**********************************************
Wonders
expires: never replace by an empty space, like you did for the obsolete units. The empty space is "read" easier.

Edit: minor changes

 

[SlowThinker]

Doubled information and the index containing all condensed info
Courthouse (and many similar situations)
Courthouses cut the distance in half in this formula: Revolt cost = City Size * (Enemy gold...
Again, I think this kind of info should be as brief as possible, so that it is tabular and any info can be easily found. Also this way the information is doubled in your work and in my Info: diplomats and spies.
My suggestion:
Courthouses cut the distance in half in the formula of bribing cities.

A sidenote:
Maybe you could add a link to the Info: dip/spy, but I would prefer that some new index with condensed and updated information will arise.
"Great Library Index" is not updated and holds also links to non-systematic threads.
I imagine something similar to the table in "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure".

Similarly I would suggest that you let the part about Defensive Bonuses (City Defenses, Terrain, Def. Bonuses, Misc.) to Sodak's Info: Combat... But Sodak is lazy to add my table (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22856&perpage=25&pagenumber=2) in his work ( sorry Marquis), and I think tables are better than a plain text (if possible)...

Edit: minor changes

 

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by la fayette
Pikemen: defence against horse = +1 (not x2; this has been demonstrated by DaveV, the master of ICS , IIRC, ask Sodak if in doubt)

I would like to move this to the Sodak's original thread: Info: Combat

 

[Nethog]

I have placed the Beta 0.94 release of my reference pack on my web site at
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmm1/games/games.html

Thanks Sodak and SlowThinker for your feedback.

Here's a summary of the additions and changes:

New Governements Summary Page!
I have added a "Governments" summary which I hope everyone takes a look at and adds their comments. I would be interested in adding some numerical information regarding the relative difference the type of government makes on corruption and waste for Despotism, Monarchy and Republic (and Fundamentalism?).

Units Summary Page:
I spent a lot of time examining the excellent chart SlowThinker has created regarding combat modifiers, and have tried to update my section on combat modifiers to be in-line with SlowThinker's table. BTW SlowThinker (or anyone else), when a Fighter is attacked by a cruise missile in a city WITHOUT SAM or SDI, then the fighter does NOT scramble and their is NO combat modifier - correct?

Terrain Conversion Chart:
I revamped the terrain conversion chart to combine the 3 individual flowcharts on the page into a single integrated flowchart. Please let me know what you think. I also added movement cost and defense modifiers (BTW I just remembered that I should have converted the defense modifiers on the terrain chart from the +nn% type to the xnD type as per SlowThinkers suggestion - I will to that for the 0.95 release).

Other Changes:
I made several other more minor changes to the tech tree, city improvements page, wonders page, terrain chart, and units page based upon some of my own ideas and on feedback from Sodak and especially SlowThinker.

Please send me your feedback!!

 

[starlifter]

Wow, nice changes. It is now quite a comprehensive reference pack!

ANARCHY:

add, under C&W:
"No Science Collected"

add, under C&W:
"Very high corruption and waste rates."

remove, under Notes:
"No research performed"

add, under Notes:
"TSL rates limited to 60% max"

FYI: (Tax/Sci/Lux rates)

DESPOTISM, MONARCHY, REPUPLIC:
delete:
the C&W statements.



FYI: The C&W is not proportional; it is accurate to say that it increases with distance from capital, but not proportional. If you want to add this revised statement, you need to add it to every form of gov't except Democracy, because it is true for all (even Communism)).


DESPOTISM:
add, under C&W:
"High corruption and waste rates."


MONARCHY:
add, under C&W:
"Moderate corruption and waste rates."


REPUBLIC:
add, under C&W:
"Low corruption and waste rates."

delete statement under attitude

add, under Attitude:
"Unless within a city (or fortress within 3 squares of a friendly city), each land & naval unit with an attack greater than zero will cause one citizen in the home city to become unhappy. Further, All bombers, missiles, and helicopters will always cause one unhappy citizen in their home city. Exception: the first unit in each city which would cause unhappiness is exempt (no unhappiness!)."

(FYI: THis is hard to properly word in a small chart cell, but the above is about as short and correct as I can suggest.)



FUNDY:
add, under C&W:
"Low corruption and waste rates."
CORRECTION: "Zero corruption and waste..."[/i


add, under notes:
"Actual Science rate is 50% max (Slider will still go to 80% though!)"

FYI: (this is DIFFERENT than the "halved" statement. they are totally different, and you need both statements. the 50% max was added in rev 1.07)

Change:
10 to 8. The book says 10 units of free support, but it is 8.

change:
"Fanatics may require support past 8."

FYI: (The book says no support. The book lies.)

change:
"Improvements ..." to "Improvements and Wonders ..."

FYI: (Wonders like JSBach also produce tithes).



COMMIE
delete:
"NO corruption and waste"

add:
"Extremely low corruption and no waste rates."
CORRECTION: "Extremely low corruption and waste..."[/i

FYI: (note: without courthouse, the 64th trade arrow is corrupt (for distant cities), and the 94th is too, totalling 2 our of 94, or about 2% at worst case).

(With courthouse, the 1st corrupt arrow is #94, worst case).


DEMOCRACY:
delete statement under attitude

add, under Attitude:
"Unless within a city (or fortress within 3 squares of a friendly city), each land & naval unit with an attack greater than zero will cause two citizens in the home city to become unhappy. Further, All bombers, missiles, and helicopters will always cause two unhappy citizens in their home city. "



That's it for the GOV's page... for now

EDIT: Corrected low/no comments in Fundy & Commie

 

[starlifter]

MORE FOR GOV'TS

DEMOCRACY:

add:
" Starting turn after celebration begins, a celebrating Democratic city will add one citizen each turn , provided there is at least one surplus food, no unhappy citizens, and 50% or more happy citizens."

add:
"If one city remains in anarchy for two consecutive turns, the entier Democracy will collapse into Anarchy."

change:
"The Senate will force (or enforce) a Cease Fire and/or Peace most of the time, though under certain conditions the Hawk party may affirm your warlike actions."

change:
"One additional trade arrow will be added to each terrain already producing at least one trade arrow."



REPUBLIC:
add:
" Starting turn after celebration begins, a celebrating Republic city will add one citizen each turn , provided there is at least one surplus food, no unhappy citizens, and 50% or more happy citizens."

"The Senate may force (or enforce) a Cease Fire and/or Peace approximately 50% of the time."


Note for all except Democracy:

"A city in celebration will enjoy the Corruption and Waste of the next higher form of Government."
(FYI: You can make a separate note, or paste a variation 6 times. )

change:
"One additional trade arrow will be added to each terrain already producing at least one trade arrow".




COMMUNISM:
change:
"... spies ..." to "... spies and diplomats ..."
(Commie makes vet dips, too!)

add:
"Price of enemy bribing your cities and units is greatly increased."
(FYI, no sense in printing the foumula, so I won't list it)


ANARCHY:
change:
"One [/i]less[/i] resource is produced in each square where 3 or more are normally produced."


DESPOTISM:
change:
"One less resource is produced in each square where 3 or more are normally produced."

that's it for now.

 

[starlifter]

Replies:

I would be interested in adding some numerical information regarding the relative difference the type of government makes on corruption and waste for Despotism, Monarchy and Republic (and Fundamentalism?).

ALL gov't produce corruption, except Democracy. ALL gov'ts produce Waste, except Demo & Commie.

Just keep it in relative terms, is my advice.... see my prior comments by Gov't type, which cover this.

when a Fighter is attacked by a cruise missile in a city WITHOUT SAM or SDI, then the fighter does NOT scramble and their is NO combat modifier - correct?

No. Part 1=yes, part 2=no.

That is, fighter does not scramble, but its defense is multiplied by SAM and/or SDI.

 

[duke o' york]

Originally posted by starlifter:
"A city in celebration will enjoy the Corruption and Waste of the next higher form of Government."

Maybe if you are going to have this wording then you should give a list of the government orders so that people will know which is the next highest form of government in each case.

 

[starlifter]

so that people will know which is the next highest form of government in each case

Order of Gov'ts:

Worst to best, for C&W:

<ANCIENT>
Anarchy
Despotism
Monarchy
Republic

<MODERN>
Communism
Fundamentalism
Democracy


PS, I have some reservations about how the game actually implements this (e.g., exactly as advertized), but this is what is supposed to occur & I've not done complete testing of it.

EDIT: Corrected Commie/Fundy order. Placed boldface on some items.

 

[Nethog]

Starlifter, could you please clarify a few points regarding your last set of posts?

Regarding Fundy:

FYI: (Wonders like JSBach also produce tithes).

Does the following list accurately reflect all of the improvements/wonders producing tithes under Fundy?

Temple, Cathedral, Colosseum, Hanging Gardens, Michelangelo’s Chapel, Shakespeare's Theater, J.S. Bach’s Cathedral, Cure for Cancer

Fundy:

Fanatics may require support past 8

You say "may", but exactly under what conditions causes support to be paid?

Fundy:

Actual Science rate is 50% max (Slider will still go to 80% though!) FYI: (this is DIFFERENT than the "halved" statement. they are totally different, and you need both statements. the 50% max was added in rev 1.07)

So if you have your slider set to 80% science under fundy, then only 50% go to science, and the remaining 50% goes to tax (can the luxury slider be set under fundy, and if so what is the effect? - tithes?). Then only half of the # of beakers generated from this 50% goes to research?

Republic feedback:

Note for all except Democracy:
"A city in celebration will enjoy the Corruption and Waste of the next higher form of Government." (FYI: You can make a separate note, or paste a variation 6 times.

Does this apply to Anarchy? Also, the manual does not seem to have the info you provide regarding the impact of WLT_ days and government type on C&W, however, the manual lists the effects of WLT_ days and improved resource collection for Despotism, Monarchy, Fundamentalism, and Communism - i.e. WLT_ day under Despotism collects resources like a Monarchy, WLT_ day under Monarchy/Fundy/Communism collects resources like a Republic. Did you miss this or is the manual wrong (again!)? If the manual is correct about resource collection, and you are correct about C&W, then the notes column on my chart looks a little weird.
e.g. for Fundy:

A city in celebration will collect resources like a Republic
A city in celebration will enjoy the Corruption and Waste of a Communist government

e.g. for communism:
A city in celebration will collect resources like a Republic
A city in celebration will enjoy the Corruption and Waste of a Democracy (i.e. zero corruption and waste)

That is, fighter does not scramble, but its defense is multiplied by SAM and/or SDI.

So, again if there is NO SAM/SDI in the city then the fighter does not scramble when attacked by a missile, and hence there is no combat modifier applied to the fighter?

Regarding actual numerical information for C&W:

Just keep it in relative terms, is my advice.... see my prior comments by Gov't type, which cover this.

Do you know where I can find an accurate formula for corruption and waste? I believe it may be possible to list provide a numerical example for the amount of corruption and waste holding all variables constant except the government type. For example, the revolt cost of a city with a courthouse is 50% higher then a city without a courthouse when the city is 6 sqs from its capital (I added this to the improvements page).

----------------------
Final question: I am thinking about creating a summary sheet containing all of the important formulas used in Civ2. What would be the recommendation on the formulas to include, and where do I find an accurate statement of these formulas?

 

[SlowThinker]

Nethog, you could use a different color for the changed text in each update so that we see changes easier.

Palace:
Sorry, I wasn't clear:
Zero corruption in city that has the Palace. Zero waste in city that has or builds a Palace.

Originally posted by Nethog
I spent a lot of time examining the excellent chart SlowThinker has created regarding combat modifiers, and have tried to update my section on combat modifiers to be in-line with SlowThinker's table. BTW SlowThinker (or anyone else), when a Fighter is attacked by a cruise missile in a city WITHOUT SAM or SDI, then the fighter does NOT scramble and their is NO combat modifier - correct?

You spent that time well. No combat modifier. Sorry, maybe I was too brief in the chart.

Improvements:
Upkeep...(0 Fundamentalism)
Isnt the reference Special function under Fund. (see Govts) sufficient?

"within 7x7 sq. centered around the city"
I found a new occurrence:
Democracy: Each ground and naval unit...not in a fortress within 3 squares of a friendly city...
I looks understadable. But maybe add
within 3 squares (straight or diag.) of a friendly city

Originally posted by Nethog
I would be interested in adding some numerical information regarding the relative difference the type of government makes on corruption and waste for Despotism, Monarchy and Republic (and Fundamentalism?).

Follow the link in my post Post #68 here (note about Palace). Warning:

Originally posted by starlifter
COMMIE
delete:"NO corruption and waste"
add:"Extremely low corruption and no waste rates."
FYI: (note: without courthouse, the 64th trade arrow is corrupt (for distant cities), and the 94th is too, totalling 2 our of 94, or about 2% at worst case).

Hm, you are right, there is some corruption. I will test the constant and add it to my thread (Corruption and waste).

Originally posted by starlifter
ALL gov'ts produce Waste, except Demo & Commie.

But I see the waste also with Communism.

Originally posted by starlifter
FUNDY:
add, under C&W:
"Low corruption and waste rates."

I dont see any corruption nor waste...

Anarchy:
move no research performed from "notes" to "corr. and waste": no gold and beakers collected. or something similar

Monarchy:
add:
Free support up to max. of 3 units and city size

resource support:
Each military unit requires 1 shield...
move outside the chart (it is a note common to all the governments) and change to
Each unit (except units with role 6 (diplomat, spy) and 7 (caravan, freight) ) requires 1 shield support.

Originally posted by Nethog
Final question: I am thinking about creating a summary sheet containing all of the important formulas used in Civ2. What would be the recommendation on the formulas to include, and where do I find an accurate statement of these formulas?

Corruption, waste (Corruption and waste), bribing cities and units (Info: diplomats and spies), trade bonus, trade route (Carvan Delivery Payoff formula ).
I think links to the sources of these formulas would be sufficient. Formulas aren't simple, there is always many complications, many bonuses and adjustments.

Terrain conversion chart: Very good.
Some nitpicks:
You write Plains 110, be similar with extra resources produced by irrig., mining, roads: +101 in place of I1R1
I would be less brief with movement and defense, there is a lot of space:
Move 2, Defense x1.5 in place of Mv: 2...

Originally posted by starlifter
COMMUNISM:
add:
"Price of enemy bribing your cities and units is greatly increased."
(FYI, no sense in printing the foumula, so I won't list it)

This is not correct.
Price of enemy bribing some of your cities is increased. (The max. distance is lower, and so there is no effect for cities that are close to the capital and very far from the capital. Only cities with the distance from 11 to 16 are affected). See 3.11 in Info: diplomats and spies.
The price you pay for some enemy units is increased. (Similarly the max. distance is lower, and so only cities with the distance from 11 to 16 are affected). See 4.10 in Info: diplomats and spies.

Starlifter,

Originally posted by starlifter
change:
"Improvements ..." to "Improvements and Wonders ..."
FYI: (Wonders like JSBach also produce tithes).

How is determined the tithe for wonders? Is there any logic?

 

[starlifter]

Does the following list accurately reflect all of the improvements/wonders producing tithes under Fundy?

No, 3 not right... HG, CfC & Shakespeare.


The Tithe List:

Temple, Cathedral, Colosseum, Michelangelo?s Chapel, J.S. Bach?s Cathedral.

The MC just provides a C, as we all know. It's the JSB that is often overlooked (+2 Gold Tithes in each city!! Rolling in gold... yeee-haw!). JSB will help make a Fundy govt rich, if you're a huge empire.

Shakes does not have effect in Fundy, though you'd expect it too given JSB's effect. HG & CFC just make happy citizens, which can cause a celebration & more trade & therefore more gold, but they will NOT tithe.

You say "may", but exactly under what conditions causes support to be paid?

This is a headache. I'd simply word it that way, and let it go. If you recite the book's number of 10, it is not correct. There are cases how you an get mroe than 8 supported, depending on how you build/support/order them.

Basicallly, you get 8 free. You may get more, but don't count on it. If you recite 10, people will be hacked when they see support for 9 or 10 at times. For your ref pack, leave it at that....

PS, A separate discussion thread about this would be fine, but I still would not change your ref pack note beyond that. Just my input.

But I see the waste also with Communism

You are correct; my bad. Communism does have Corruption and Waste.

Fundy does not have any detectable C & W.

I made a detailed thread for the benefit of anyone, here.


Further, here is my corrected C&W guide:

Order of Gov'ts, wrst to best, for C&W:

<ANCIENT>
Anarchy
Despotism
Monarchy
Republic

<MODERN>
Communism
Fundamentalism
Democracy

So if you have your slider set to 80% science under fundy, then only 50% go to science, and the remaining 50% goes to tax (can the luxury slider be set under fundy, and if so what is the effect? - tithes?). Then only half of the # of beakers generated from this 50% goes to research?

If you set the slider above 50% in Fundy, the 10%, 20%, or 30% is simply truncated. It is not recovered in taxes or Lux. You should never set Fundy above 50% science. Raise the Tax ot Lux instead.

Note for all except Democracy:
"A city in celebration will enjoy the Corruption and Waste of the next higher form of Government." (FYI: You can make a separate note, or paste a variation 6 times.

Does this apply to Anarchy? Also, the manual does not seem to have the info you provide regarding the impact of WLT_ days and government type on C&W, however, the manual lists the effects of WLT_ days and improved resource collection for Despotism, Monarchy, Fundamentalism, and Communism - i.e. WLT_ day under Despotism collects resources like a Monarchy, WLT_ day under Monarchy/Fundy/Communism collects resources like a Republic. Did you miss this or is the manual wrong (again!)? If the manual is correct about resource collection, and you are correct about C&W, then the notes column on my chart looks a little weird.

No, it does not elevate Anarchy to Despotism C&W (that I have noticed... I have not tested it and probably won't)... (good point!). However, in Anarchy, the trade arrow issue is almost moot, since no tax or science is collected. however, Luxuries are applied!
WLT_ growth is never elevated. These are fixed to the Government types of Republic and Democracy. e.g, a celebrating Monarchy will have Republic trade arrow added, but no WLT_ growth.

I do not plan on testing all the combinations and calculating the actual corruption rates to see how Civ 2 really applies it or not.... I have informally noticed that there are inconsisencies, though. That is a whole can of worms, if someone wants to plow into it.

For your chart purposes, I'd just omit the whole C&W part unless someone at Apolyton (or here) has actually done full tests. They will be straghtfoward to do, but just time consuming becasue of all the variations.

So, again if there is NO SAM/SDI in the city then the fighter does not scramble when attacked by a missile, and hence there is no combat modifier applied to the fighter?

There is no scramble!! There is only SAM & SDI defensive multipliers, like any other unit (e.g., Alpine, Legion, Mech Inf, etc.)!!

Do you know where I can find an accurate formula for corruption and waste? I believe it may be possible to list provide a numerical example for the amount of corruption and waste holding all variables constant except the government type. For example, the revolt cost of a city with a courthouse is 50% higher then a city without a courthouse when the city is 6 sqs from its capital (I added this to the improvements page).

As someone mentioned 10 or 15 posts back (maybe Sodak or la fayette), putting formulas into this (like the one you used to have in Courthouse, is not really fitting.

I just noticed.... your Courthouse Improvent comment is wrong!

You need to delete the whole statement about the 50% part and replace it with something like

"Courthouses increase the cost of revolting/subverting any non-Democratic city without a palace. Exception: Communism costs never exceed that of a city 13 tiles from the capital."

No need for the formula, or quantifications. That's my opinion .

I am thinking about creating a summary sheet containing all of the important formulas used in Civ2. What would be the recommendation on the formulas to include, and where do I find an accurate statement of these formulas?

There is no single place that contains all the (accurate) formuals for everything, except in the soruce code and maybe some in Brian's programming team.

Some have been published in the Prima Guide, and most of those are fairly accurate, though sometimes poorly or vaguely worded at times.

Some people have been reverse-engineering such formulas at Apolyton, I think. (Sodak, ST, & LF may know, as may Smash).
I've done some work, but mainly figuring out things by testing and starting from what is published.

Some of it, I've put in CFC links, like the Pollution stuff, as well as trade, TRB's, bribes, revolts, etc. Others have done some of this too.... but it is scattered around.

 

[starlifter]

byh Slow Thinker:

Hm, you are right, there is some corruption. I will test the constant and add it to my thread (Corruption and waste)

I just read that you have a thread!! earlier today, I posted a new thead here at CFC with screenshots so everyone can see examples of C & W.


Here is my new C&W thread at CFC.

But I see the waste also with Communism.

You are correct.... Commie has waste... I meant to say Fundy. The thread above has some SSs posted to it.

I dont see any corruption nor waste..

You are correct! Commie/Fundy are reversed in some of my statements: fundy has zero C&W, commie has very low C&W.

I think links to the sources of these formulas would be sufficient. Formulas aren't simple, there is always many complications, many bonuses and adjustments.

FOR Nethog: I will definitely second ST's comment above!!! You may not want to include formulas into the Pack, at least at this point. This is a big pandora's box, excpet for the 3 or 4 well-tested foumulas. It lends itself to pages of explanations, not simple easy cut and dry results, as some manuals imply. This will take a LOT of time to do "correctly".

by SL: "Price of enemy bribing your cities and units is greatly increased."(FYI, no sense in printing the foumula, so I won't list it)

by ST:This is not correct.
by STrice of enemy bribing some of your cities is increased.

You are correct ST. What I said is bungled, because it only applies in narrow cases.

This is why I don't like quantifications iin a summary sheet.... the wording is long and awkward to get correct, and the foumulas and explanations are not any easier or more concise.

My advice is to use a general phrase, in this sort of bulle, like:

"If a communist city (without a courthouse) is 13 or more squares from its capital, the the price of revolting/subverting that city is the same; costs closer to the capital are unaffected."

The price you pay for some enemy units is increased

I agree.... by bad wording. It is still clumsy to word it succinctly, if everything is is encompassed.

How is determined the tithe for wonders? Is there any logic?

Bad wording might have implied lots of sonders, judging from what nethog worte in reply.

Only 2 wonders affect tithe: Michelangelos Chapel, and JSB. I expounded on that in my reply to Nethog.

JSB = +2 tithe, MC = +2 +3 or +4.



Whew!!!

Nice catches and discussion guys!